Engines

[anhar]

From my new boat searches, it is clear that the most popular brands of engine are Isuzu, Beta and perhaps Shire but there's little to choose between them. However, one of my requirements for a boat is that it has the lowest maintenance schedule possible. Thus I'm prepared to pay extra for maintenance free batteries, stainless water tank and anything else that lowers the time spent maintaining and therefore increases the cruising time which for me is what it's about.

 

Anyway, Isuzu say in their literature that oil changes are every 250 hours. The longer the better as far as I'm concerned. Anyone know what the spec. on this is for Beta Green Line or typical Shire engines? Thanks.

 

regards

Steve

[bottle]

I expect you have been here Beta-marine but there is no guide to service requirements.

[DHutch]

It is clear that the most popular brands of engine are Isuzu, Beta and perhaps Shire but there's little to choose between them.

Yeah, thats the impression i got.

- I talked to seval guys at Preston brook, one at isuzu, one a beta. asking varous questions just so see what is replys where.

- TBH, i wasnt overly impressed by there responces.

- Non of there sales-people really seamed to know very much about the engines in question.

- I wasnt really bothered, becuase i was never planning to buy an engine anyway, but still.

 

 

Daniel

Edited February 3, 2006 by dhutch

[NB Esk]

Hi Steve,

 

Try to go for an engine that isn't belt driven. A cam belt is just another thing to worry about, as well as creating additional downtime/maintenance. Bad enough when they break on cars but you can do without this when some by-wash is pushing you towards a wier.

 

Also, if you had an engine with a paper element type oil filter, you may be able to get a replacement filter head to convert to spin on type. Not that there's anything wrong with paper element types, just that I've converted a lot of Perkins engines in this way, and it tranformed the maintenance.

 

Cheers...

[anhar]

Thanks for the replies guys.

 

regards

Steve

[John Orentas]

I'm just waiting for some very clever engine mariniser / entrepreneur to introduce the latest common rail, variable spray pattern, electronically controlled valve timing, electronically controlled everything space age diesel.

 

Can you just imagine! But it will come and people even on here will be telling us what a vast improvement they are over the old fashioned crude engines we have been used to (how did we ever put up with those), only 50% dearer and less maintenance. A bit like the comparison between a typewriter and a PC they will say, and good for the environment too.

 

I believe it has already happened in America.

Edited February 4, 2006 by John Orentas

[ChrisPy]

I'm just waiting for some very clever engine mariniser / entrepreneur to introduce the latest common rail, variable spray pattern, electronically controlled valve timing, electronically controlled everything space age diesel.

 

 

sounds a bit like the 2.5Tdi Land Rover Discoveries we operate. I have a fleet of 12, all have had new engines under warranty within 90,000 km, all of them have been back to the main dealer several times for engine management system faults, all of them have defaulted to get-you-home mode (black smoke and no power) on several occasions. last week I was stranded on a mountain in a brand new one when the gearbox oil cooler hose burst and left the autobox inoperable.

[Stephen Fulcher]

I can just see the adverts.

 

"New narrowboat powered by a state-of-the art Common-rail, turbo intercooled diesel engine that requires far less maintenance than former marine engines. This unit produces twice as much power as required, but requires little to no daily maintenance. There is a cost though, you need a larger engine bay, and there are no user serviceable parts. Servicing starts from £199.00 including labour, and can be done at selected boatyards."

[Guest]

If anyone saw the way "top gear" tested that old Toyota pickup truck (200,000mlies, thirteen years old), I would tend to think that would be a good engine to marinise. Park it in the sea overnight, park it on a tower block which is duly demolished, torch it, drop a caravan on it, and still start without more than basic hand tools (no spares allowed). I know of other Toyota diesels that have done truly high mileage with little more than good basic servicing.

[dor]

sounds a bit like the 2.5Tdi Land Rover Discoveries we operate. I have a fleet of 12, all have had new engines under warranty within 90,000 km, all of them have been back to the main dealer several times for engine management system faults, all of them have defaulted to get-you-home mode (black smoke and no power) on several occasions. last week I was stranded on a mountain in a brand new one when the gearbox oil cooler hose burst and left the autobox inoperable.

 

Well, what do you expect when you buy a Ford? Like the Volvo, the LR is being subjected to all sorts of cuts in the quality of the engineering. And one of the new "volvos" is just a focus in disguise.

 

Going back to engines, the Thorneycroft-marinised Mitsubishis are very reliable.

[anhar]

I'm just waiting for some very clever engine mariniser / entrepreneur to introduce the latest common rail, variable spray pattern, electronically controlled valve timing, electronically controlled everything space age diesel.

 

Can you just imagine! But it will come and people even on here will be telling us what a vast improvement they are over the old fashioned crude engines we have been used to (how did we ever put up with those), only 50% dearer and less maintenance. A bit like the comparison between a typewriter and a PC they will say, and good for the environment too.

 

I believe it has already happened in America.

And I would be in line for one here. Your sarcasm has backfired because reliability and low maintenance is actually desirable. So, of course it would be an improvement. There is nothing attractive about having to spend time maintaining an engine or anything else, not for me anyway.

[Guest]

Well, what do you expect when you buy a Ford? Like the Volvo, the LR is being subjected to all sorts of cuts in the quality of the engineering. And one of the new "volvos" is just a focus in disguise.

 

Going back to engines, the Thorneycroft-marinised Mitsubishis are very reliable.

The Vetus range is Mitsubishi based too. They seem reliable. The oil change interval is only 100 hours though. It is literally a fifteen minute job once you are familiar. Personally I think 200 hours plus is a long interval for engines that are not working very hard. I would be tempted to change it more often anyway.

Edited February 4, 2006 by Guest

[NB Esk]

If anyone saw the way "top gear" tested that old Toyota pickup truck

 

Yeah catweasel, I saw this. Hard to believe but it looked above board.

 

Cheers...

[colinjw]

The Toyota pick-up would have had a 2.4 or 3 lt. engine developing up to 120 b.h.p. which is a bot o.t.t. for canal boats.

 

I have a 3 lt. Toyota Hi-lux Surf and it requires servicing every 5000 kms. (not miles) which equates to about every 150 hours. At least my Isuzu 38 h.p. on the boat can stretch to 250 hours for an oil change and filters done alternate times although I just change the oil filter at the same time as the oil.

 

As long as the basic servicing (oil, filters etc.) is done on or near schedule, any engine should run for long enough.

 

Colin

 

The Toyota in question can be found at:

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/topgear/prog28/toyota.shtml

[Guest]

Thanks for the link, it was good watching again. I am sure it was genuine.

[bottle]

I know this is not a true comparison but it does give an idea of modern engine servicing periods.

 

My diesel (car) requires a service every 12,000miles (interim @ 6000) now if i traveled at an average speed of 60mph (about 2200rpm)

 

That would relate to 200hrs runtime.

 

So the 'modern' diesel is no better.

[alan_fincher]

So oil changes, we seem to have...

 

Isuzu 250 hours

Vetus (Mitsubishi) 100 hours

Beta (Kubota) ??? hours

Shire (Yanmar) ??? hours

 

To put this in perspective, what's the recommendation on an old clunker like a BMC 1.5 or 1.8 ?

 

I know I should know, but I think any paperwork I have is only for the base BMC engine - I don't think I've seen anything explict to what's sensible for a marinised one in canal use....

[Stephen Fulcher]

It might be possible to get this information from Calcutt Boats as they still sell new BMC 1.8 engines.

[Alastair]

And I would be in line for one here. Your sarcasm has backfired because reliability and low maintenance is actually desirable. So, of course it would be an improvement. There is nothing attractive about having to spend time maintaining an engine or anything else, not for me anyway.

 

The problem with these sorts of modern engines is that there is no such thing as a simple fix on them. Also, many mechanics won't touch them unless they have the appropriate training or equipment. You would be mad to fit one on a boat - sure they'd be fine for a while, but as soon as one small thing went wrong, the whole engine would be knackered. As little a thing as a bit of corrosion (common in the damp enviroment of a boat) on a single electrical terminal could stop the engine, and possibly even prevent you from starting it after you'd cleaned off the corrosion!

 

If you are thinking of an engine that never ever needs maintenance - probably the older styled the better - the air-cooled Listers would be very very hard to beat.

[Stephen Fulcher]

To even diagnose a fault on the latest engines you need expensive technology, and there is no such thing as a cheap fix.

 

As said above, it only takes a small ingress of water somewhere and the electronics dont work properly, and this is likely to be a major problem on a boat where there is a large amount of water in the locality, and condensation is more in abundance than anywhere else that such an engine is likely to be fitted.

 

Any minor electrical fault will cause the engine to work ineffiiently, and you have to remortgage the house to pay the repair bills.

[anhar]

So oil changes, we seem to have...

 

Isuzu 250 hours

Vetus (Mitsubishi) 100 hours

Beta (Kubota) ??? hours

Shire (Yanmar) ??? hours

 

To put this in perspective, what's the recommendation on an old clunker like a BMC 1.5 or 1.8 ?

 

I know I should know, but I think any paperwork I have is only for the base BMC engine - I don't think I've seen anything explict to what's sensible for a marinised one in canal use....

Thanks Alan for keeping this on topic. All I wanted was a simple enquiry to establish which of the popular modern engines that most builders now fit have the lowest oil change intervals in order to minimise maintanance time, assuming other maintenance chores are probably about the same amongst them all.

 

What I thought was my entirely innocent desire for low maintenance seems to annoy certain readers. I can't see why.

 

regards

Steve

Edited February 5, 2006 by anhar

[david and julie]

I agree modern engine electronics may be troublesome in a damp environment, but they have definately improved both fuel consumption and emissions, which is what they are meant to do. With better engineering the electronics should be able to stand the damp.

 

In reality boats don't need to be efficient because we can still use red diesel, no doubt if we do end up using white diesel, fuel efficiency would become a bigger issue.

 

Oil change intervals can often be extended by changing the oils or the filters themselves, which is common practice in the transport sector, where downtime and costs are bigger issues. Manufacturers usually use the lowest intervals as they don't know the particular operating environment. This is changing though as longer service intervals are becomming selling points. Modern synthetic oils are far superior than they used to be.

[anhar]

To even diagnose a fault on the latest engines you need expensive technology, and there is no such thing as a cheap fix.

 

As said above, it only takes a small ingress of water somewhere and the electronics dont work properly, and this is likely to be a major problem on a boat where there is a large amount of water in the locality, and condensation is more in abundance than anywhere else that such an engine is likely to be fitted.

 

Any minor electrical fault will cause the engine to work ineffiiently, and you have to remortgage the house to pay the repair bills.

Hello Stephen

 

I don't agree at all. You are making the huge presumption that such a modern engine would not be adequately designed/modified to work in the canal environment. Obviously if it was subject to the problems you describe then it would be unsuitable. However, it should go without saying that such an engine would be adapted suitably for the narrowboat environment.

 

I find it weird to claim that just because it is ultra modern in design such an engine must be a stupid idea for the canals. That kind of argument is always put out by certain people whenever design advances occur in every field. We'd never progress anything if heed were paid to such views. That doesn't mean I believe that everything new is inherently better design. It's not in all cases. But in general, advances in engineering design are for the good.

 

Why? Some obvious reasons for canal boat engines: lower maintenance, fewer faults, less noise, less vibration, less fuel consumption. I cannot see any worthwhile argument against such desirable objectives. Except from the luddite lobby of course who think that anything new is automatically to be condemned, purely because it is new!

 

It's one thing to admire and love old engines. I can well understand that. But that doesn't have to go hand in hand with a desire to damn everything new. A really knowledgeable engineer would appreciate both. The kind of people who might be working on the latest developments whilst as a hobby are restoring an old motorcycle or boat for example.

 

regards

Steve

Edited February 5, 2006 by anhar

[bottle]

Sorry to bring up car engines (diesel) again. Waiting for boat.

 

 

For approxiamately £700 I can 're-chip' my electronic cpu this will give a higher bhp and increase the fuel economy also raise the top speed

 

I know I questioned how can you increase output and economy at the same time but apparently they have the figures to prove it.

 

Now if they can do this, then I am sure that an engine for a canalboat could be 'chipped' to give the output required for the situation

 

I know damp can get everywhere but 'elctronic diesels' must work in many damp places (or do you only take the car out when it's not raining.

 

Many of the diesels used on canalboats were designed as 'statics', there will always (I expect)be a need for 'static diesels' and these will be the engines adapted for canalboat use

[anhar]

Sorry to bring up car engines (diesel) again. Waiting for boat.

For approxiamately £700 I can 're-chip' my electronic cpu this will give a higher bhp and increase the fuel economy also raise the top speed

 

I know I questioned how can you increase output and economy at the same time but apparently they have the figures to prove it.

 

Now if they can do this, then I am sure that an engine for a canalboat could be 'chipped' to give the output required for the situation

 

I know damp can get everywhere but 'elctronic diesels' must work in many damp places (or do you only take the car out when it's not raining.

 

Many of the diesels used on canalboats were designed as 'statics', there will always (I expect)be a need for 'static diesels' and these will be the engines adapted for canalboat use

Quite bottle.

 

I've been through all these arguments repeatedly in the past regarding motorcycles whose engines are as at least exposed to water as boats, possibly more so. These days bikes are full of electronics and this is one of the major reasons for increased reliability and less maintenance. Not diesel of course but the same principles arise.

 

Also, I'm no expert but I'm pretty certain that electronics are now present in all areas of the marine environment and not merely in the calmness of the canals. I believe that modern seagoing ships of all types, naval, merchant, passenger, private boats and so on are absolutely full of electronics. Consequently it makes no sense to me to suggest that electronics are suspect in canal situations. It has to be just a matter of the right design because if you can protect electronics in the harsh world of the rough seas you can surely do so on the canals.

 

regards

Steve

Edited February 5, 2006 by anhar