Vetus Engine Mounts

[budgie348]

Can anyone tell me if they have had any problems with Vetus engine mounts, in particular fitted to a vetus 4-17 engine. and what may the problems be if any by fitting harder more general engine mounts?

[Guest]

Can anyone tell me if they have had any problems with Vetus engine mounts, in particular fitted to a vetus 4-17 engine. and what may the problems be if any by fitting harder more general engine mounts?

I know of a couple of people where the actual castings on the Vetus rear gearbox mounts have failed. Kings Lock Boatyard at Cheshire on the T&M do upgraded ones. My Vetus 4-15 has the "as supplied" rubber mounts, and I have never tried upgrading them yet. Do you have a specific problem?

[Iain_S]

Can anyone tell me if they have had any problems with Vetus engine mounts, in particular fitted to a vetus 4-17 engine. and what may the problems be if any by fitting harder more general engine mounts?

 

Problem we had on Copperkins a few years ago was that one of the lower nuts would slacken off, which would lead to a fracture in the opposite engine mounting leg (cast ally ones). The later legs are bent steel bar, which are a lot stronger. I suspect that the old legs also "gave" a bit when the mounting nuts were tightened, as we haven't had a problem with slack nuts since we got new mounting legs (along with a new engine!)

 

Iain

[Guest]

Problem we had on Copperkins a few years ago was that one of the lower nuts would slacken off, which would lead to a fracture in the opposite engine mounting leg (cast ally ones). The later legs are bent steel bar, which are a lot stronger. I suspect that the old legs also "gave" a bit when the mounting nuts were tightened, as we haven't had a problem with slack nuts since we got new mounting legs (along with a new engine!)

 

Iain

Yes the lower nuts back off on ours too. I check them frequently when on a long cruise.

[budgie348]

I know of a couple of people where the actual castings on the Vetus rear gearbox mounts have failed. Kings Lock Boatyard at Cheshire on the T&M do upgraded ones. My Vetus 4-15 has the "as supplied" rubber mounts, and I have never tried upgrading them yet. Do you have a specific problem?

I have just had the Vetus mounts replaced with harder for want of a better description rounded ones two days ago. From the start I noticed that I had water droplets dancing on top of the rudder ie. high frequency vibration and inside the boat all our glassware was singing and crockery on shelves falling off.

I have spoken to the boatyard who fitted them and they are trying to tell me there is something wrong inside the engine.

 

List of events.

 

1. Rear engine legs cracked (both) one blackened, one still silver just failed. replaced by RCR only after having removed one engine mount to facilitate removal of broken leg. ? was it replaced correctly?

 

2. After about 2 days started to have a noticeable engine vibration. Called into boatyard and they told me I needed new engine mounts and that the Vetus ones were no way near as good as the ones they used so on their advise had them fit their new ones, albeit 55 days later due to ice.

 

3. Took the boat away having paid and within an hour of engine running developed high frequency vibration when in neutral, enough to make your toes tingle when standing on the back deck

 

4. returned to boatyard and was told that if it hadn't settled down after a couple of months, bring it back and we will change them.

 

5.Next day rang boatyard and told them that I was not happy and that the vibration was not acceptable.

 

6. They have said they want to talk to Kings Lock Chandlers as they are the experts, but expert is away for a week.

 

 

What is the least I should do to protect both myself and the engine.

 

Oh they also removed the Centreflex coupling and replaced it with Drive joint coupling and prop drive flange?

[Guest]

I have just had the Vetus mounts replaced with harder for want of a better description rounded ones two days ago. From the start I noticed that I had water droplets dancing on top of the rudder ie. high frequency vibration and inside the boat all our glassware was singing and crockery on shelves falling off.

I have spoken to the boatyard who fitted them and they are trying to tell me there is something wrong inside the engine.

 

List of events.

 

1. Rear engine legs cracked (both) one blackened, one still silver just failed. replaced by RCR only after having removed one engine mount to facilitate removal of broken leg. ? was it replaced correctly?

 

2. After about 2 days started to have a noticeable engine vibration. Called into boatyard and they told me I needed new engine mounts and that the Vetus ones were no way near as good as the ones they used so on their advise had them fit their new ones, albeit 55 days later due to ice.

 

3. Took the boat away having paid and within an hour of engine running developed high frequency vibration when in neutral, enough to make your toes tingle when standing on the back deck

 

4. returned to boatyard and was told that if it hadn't settled down after a couple of months, bring it back and we will change them.

 

5.Next day rang boatyard and told them that I was not happy and that the vibration was not acceptable.

 

6. They have said they want to talk to Kings Lock Chandlers as they are the experts, but expert is away for a week.

 

 

What is the least I should do to protect both myself and the engine.

 

Oh they also removed the Centreflex coupling and replaced it with Drive joint coupling and prop drive flange?

Mine is the slightly smaller 415 engine, but almost the same as yours. The only time I had trouble with vibration was when the engine went out of alignment (the Vetus stuffing gland dripped too) which was caused by the loose nut. Other than this it has been a very vibration free engine. I am wondering if the engine alignment is correct on your engine?

Is your porpshaft a conventional type or a Vetus "greaserless" type?

If it is a conventional one and the flexible coupling has been removed, I suspect this could be your problem.

A photo of your setup as of now would be useful.

Edited January 21, 2011 by Guest

[budgie348]

Mine is the slightly smaller 415 engine, but almost the same as yours. The only time I had trouble with vibration was when the engine went out of alignment (the Vetus stuffing gland dripped too) which was caused by the loose nut. Other than this it has been a very vibration free engine. I am wondering if the engine alignment is correct on your engine?

Is your porpshaft a conventional type or a Vetus "greaserless" type?

If it is a conventional one and the flexible coupling has been removed, I suspect this could be your problem.

A photo of your setup as of now would be useful.

Will take photo in the morning

[ditchcrawler]

Mine is the slightly smaller 415 engine, but almost the same as yours. The only time I had trouble with vibration was when the engine went out of alignment (the Vetus stuffing gland dripped too) which was caused by the loose nut. Other than this it has been a very vibration free engine. I am wondering if the engine alignment is correct on your engine?

Is your porpshaft a conventional type or a Vetus "greaserless" type?

If it is a conventional one and the flexible coupling has been removed, I suspect this could be your problem.

A photo of your setup as of now would be useful.

I think Graham indicated that he gets the vibration with the gearbox in neutral which would rule out drive line problems

[Guest]

I think Graham indicated that he gets the vibration with the gearbox in neutral which would rule out drive line problems

I didn't notice that

Still I wonder why the flexible drive coupling has been removed? If it is a conventional sterngear and not the Vetus type, and there is no flexible coupling, would this not lead to vibration even in neutral? We'll have to wait and see the photo of the setup as of now I think.

[Guest User]

When my engine (not a Vetus) developed severe vibration in neutral, everything was tight, but the mounts had worn out nonetheless simply through age. I sourced replacements from http://www.avindustrialproducts.co.uk/ (look up the "Silent Marine" section on their Products page). IRRC the main thing is to match the correct "shore" rating of the rubber to that specified for the engine. I contacted my engine's main dealer to confirm the rating. I'd imagine too stiff a mount could result in more vibration, not less, being transmitted though the bearers ?

Edited January 22, 2011 by Graham!

[budgie348]

 

Hopefully these two have loaded ok.

[budgie348]

 

hope its worked this time

 

Here is the photos as promised

Edited January 22, 2011 by budgie348

[Guest]

That is an R and D flexible coupling in your photo. Mine has the same type which has been fine for 6 years. Sounds like the new engine mounts might be the culprit?

[budgie348]

That is an R and D flexible coupling in your photo. Mine has the same type which has been fine for 6 years. Sounds like the new engine mounts might be the culprit?

Thanks Catweasel, was hoping that might be the case

[n.b.Goldie]

 

Hopefully these two have loaded ok.

 

The images have not loaded but I found them by pasting the url into explorer.

 

I think you said the vibration is felt whilst in neutral and therefore it is very unlikely the drivetrain setup is the cause. However if it is felt whilst in drive only, then you have a drivetrain issue.

 

Anyway, I have a couple of comments about your drivetrain;

 

First, it is a very long propshaft to be unsupported from the sterntube bearing to the driveshaft coupling.

 

Second, the driveshaft coupling does not appear to be a type which would be sympathetic to engine movement/vibration and the loss of the Centaflex would IMHO be noticable. If your coupling is 'stiff' it could put tremendous side loads on the sterntube bearing as the engine moves about on its flexible mounts.

 

In summary i would think your drivetrain would be better if it looked like this;

 

 

Hope this helps.

Ditchdabbler

[robdalej]

Cant tell you why you are having the problems , the only thing i can say is that we have a 4 cyl vetus in our boat [a 50 ft piper] it is a 1989 and the engine mounts seem to be the original, the boat runs very smoothly with no vibration but before we had this boat we had a 30ft and hada brand new 3 cyl vetus fitted to that, it was awful, it vibrated the engine felt lumpy and was apain to use, i asked the fitter who had installed the engine what was wrong with it and he reckoned it was because the new vetus mounts were made of a harder rubber so the engine was not flexing as muchso itwas more rigid. dont know wether he was corect but could it be becuause your new mountings are stiffer than the originals.?.

[budgie348]

The images have not loaded but I found them by pasting the url into explorer.

 

I think you said the vibration is felt whilst in neutral and therefore it is very unlikely the drivetrain setup is the cause. However if it is felt whilst in drive only, then you have a drivetrain issue.

 

Anyway, I have a couple of comments about your drivetrain;

 

First, it is a very long propshaft to be unsupported from the sterntube bearing to the driveshaft coupling.

 

Second, the driveshaft coupling does not appear to be a type which would be sympathetic to engine movement/vibration and the loss of the Centaflex would IMHO be noticable. If your coupling is 'stiff' it could put tremendous side loads on the sterntube bearing as the engine moves about on its flexible mounts.

 

In summary i would think your drivetrain would be better if it looked like this;

 

 

Hope this helps.

Ditchdabbler

Thanks Ditchdabbler

 

Cant tell you why you are having the problems , the only thing i can say is that we have a 4 cyl vetus in our boat [a 50 ft piper] it is a 1989 and the engine mounts seem to be the original, the boat runs very smoothly with no vibration but before we had this boat we had a 30ft and hada brand new 3 cyl vetus fitted to that, it was awful, it vibrated the engine felt lumpy and was apain to use, i asked the fitter who had installed the engine what was wrong with it and he reckoned it was because the new vetus mounts were made of a harder rubber so the engine was not flexing as muchso itwas more rigid. dont know wether he was corect but could it be becuause your new mountings are stiffer than the originals.?.

Thank you

[dor]

i asked the fitter who had installed the engine what was wrong with it and he reckoned it was because the new vetus mounts were made of a harder rubber so the engine was not flexing as muchso itwas more rigid.

 

Vetus 3 cyl. engines should be fitted with oil-filled engine mounts.

 

My vetus M4.17 used to vibrate quite badly, even at tickover out of gear. I asked the boatyard that supplied the sailaway to check the mounts. Unfortunately their lack of interest once the boat was sold meant that despite their assurances that the mounts were fine, I don't think they bothered checking it. After about 500 hours the mounts were shot. I replaced them and spent quite a bit of time setting them up. The difference was considerable. The tricky bit is making sure that the engine is not rocking on a diagonal pair.

[budgie348]

Vetus 3 cyl. engines should be fitted with oil-filled engine mounts.

 

My vetus M4.17 used to vibrate quite badly, even at tickover out of gear. I asked the boatyard that supplied the sailaway to check the mounts. Unfortunately their lack of interest once the boat was sold meant that despite their assurances that the mounts were fine, I don't think they bothered checking it. After about 500 hours the mounts were shot. I replaced them and spent quite a bit of time setting them up. The difference was considerable. The tricky bit is making sure that the engine is not rocking on a diagonal pair.

Did you replace them with the Vetus K75 mounts?

[n.b.Goldie]

Vetus 3 cyl. engines should be fitted with oil-filled engine mounts.

 

My vetus M4.17 used to vibrate quite badly, even at tickover out of gear. I asked the boatyard that supplied the sailaway to check the mounts. Unfortunately their lack of interest once the boat was sold meant that despite their assurances that the mounts were fine, I don't think they bothered checking it. After about 500 hours the mounts were shot. I replaced them and spent quite a bit of time setting them up. The difference was considerable. The tricky bit is making sure that the engine is not rocking on a diagonal pair.

 

This just so true. Getting the engine aligned whilst at the same time avoiding the 'rocking-on-a-diagonal-pair' thing is in my experience an absolute nightmare. I just do not understand why, apart from the IMHO small extra expense, Aquadrives or Pythondrives are not fitted as standard nowadays and particularly in new builds because these eliminate the need for accurate engine alignment and avoid expensive damage when an engine mount fails.

 

Ditchdabbler

 

Edited to add; Having seen a picture of the OPs propshaft from sterntube to coupling I reckon there is more than enough room to fit an Aquadrive. If you can afford it my recommendation would be to go for it. Info here: Aquadrive I have no connection with the company but can tell you that Wyvern Shipping our local hire boat fleet use them and the owner tells me he is very pleased with them.

Edited January 23, 2011 by ditchdabbler

[dor]

Graham: Yes I used standard K75 Vetus Mounts.

 

DD: Even with an Aquadrive (I fitted the equivalent Python Drive) you still need to ensure that the diagonals are set up properly, and as you say, this is the most difficult part.

[tony collins]

To get the optimum performance out of engine mounts, they have to be subject to a proper engineered solution. It is quite possible (and in my was definitely was) to have different spec mounts at the rear (g/box) end to those at the front. This is because the weight distribution is most unlikely to be 50/50. In my case it was more like 65/35 as the weight of the gearbox shifted the CofG rearwards. Hence I fitted softer mounts at the forward end than at the stern end. I also took very great care to align the engine up with the shaft (using a dial indicator) and to be doubley sure inserted a Fennerflex drive coupling into the drive train.

 

Also I can say from experience that 3 cyl engines can be right pain to isolate. Sadly your local friendly chandler or boat builder may not be the best person to advise you. I would suggest the engine manufacturer or local bearing/engineers providers would be a better source. The reason for this is they both have access to engine mount manufacturers. Alternatively contact. http://www.trelleborg.com/en/IndustrialAVS/ They will want weights at each mounting point, typical RPM range and the distance between the mounting points. There are other manufacturers of anti-vabration mounts.

[n.b.Goldie]

To get the optimum performance out of engine mounts, they have to be subject to a proper engineered solution. It is quite possible (and in my was definitely was) to have different spec mounts at the rear (g/box) end to those at the front. This is because the weight distribution is most unlikely to be 50/50. In my case it was more like 65/35 as the weight of the gearbox shifted the CofG rearwards. Hence I fitted softer mounts at the forward end than at the stern end. I also took very great care to align the engine up with the shaft (using a dial indicator) and to be doubley sure inserted a Fennerflex drive coupling into the drive train.

 

Also I can say from experience that 3 cyl engines can be right pain to isolate. Sadly your local friendly chandler or boat builder may not be the best person to advise you. I would suggest the engine manufacturer or local bearing/engineers providers would be a better source. The reason for this is they both have access to engine mount manufacturers. Alternatively contact. http://www.trellebor.../IndustrialAVS/ They will want weights at each mounting point, typical RPM range and the distance between the mounting points. There are other manufacturers of anti-vabration mounts.

 

I've not come across Fennerflex yet, any chances of a picture of your installation, it sounds most intriguing.

 

Ditchdabbler

[Doorman]

We had hydraulic engine mounts on our M3.10 Vetus engine. The mount directly below the fuel injector pump suffered from exposure to leaking diesel oil and perished, causing the rubber gaiter to burst, allowing the engine to tilt unevenly.

 

The end result, was that the misaligned engine and gearbox placed undue stress on the stern tube cutlass bearing and this failed prematurely, causing the stern gland to leak badly. Unaware of this and after leaving the boat for a few days to celebrate the impending new year, we returned to find the engine bay and rear cabin bilges full of canal water.

 

Had we not been liveaboards, heaven knows what we would have encountered if we'd not returned to the boat for a longer period!

 

Mike

[n.b.Goldie]

We had hydraulic engine mounts on our M3.10 Vetus engine. The mount directly below the fuel injector pump suffered from exposure to leaking diesel oil and perished, causing the rubber gaiter to burst, allowing the engine to tilt unevenly.

 

The end result, was that the misaligned engine and gearbox placed undue stress on the stern tube cutlass bearing and this failed prematurely, causing the stern gland to leak badly. Unaware of this and after leaving the boat for a few days to celebrate the impending new year, we returned to find the engine bay and rear cabin bilges full of canal water.

 

Had we not been liveaboards, heaven knows what we would have encountered if we'd not returned to the boat for a longer period!

 

Mike

 

Excactly the sort of expensive damage I was alluding to in my previous post, damage that would have been avoided if an Aquadrive or Pythondrive was in the drivetrain.

 

If space does not allow an Aqua/Pythondrive a 'plummer block' bearing as in the picture in my post above would have helped avoid disaster, a knackered plummer block bearing is a whole deal cheaper than a new stern tube, gearbox etc...........

 

Why we hook up a motor on flexible mounts to a shaft that has pretty much zero lateral movement without putting in something to protect the shaft's bearing is a mystery to me.

 

Ditchdabbler