Alternator charge level

[nb Innisfree]

 

Theres nothing wrong with having a large alternator as such, its the constant 14.8V voltage which would bother me.

 

 

It won't be constant, when bulk charging batts will drag voltage down, 14.8v will be reached at the end of the absorption charge.

[Nickhlx]

Hello Nick

Can you PM me the Iskra part number off your alternator?

Would be interested to see if its the same as the one I've been involved with at work.

Not aware of there being two different versions supplied with/for Beta engines.

Have a good New Year.

Thanks

Steve

 

Hi Steve,

 

Yes sure - it will (hopefully) be Sunday next time I see the boat, so will take a photo of it and let you know...

 

All the best,

 

Nick

[bob ellison]

Hello Bob

One of the "canal rescue outfits" (RCR actualy) has been looking into this issue on behalf of a member.

 

Tony Brooks and myself are familiar with the case, but are equaly constrained by data protection issues.

 

With the consent of RCR I can supply the following:-

 

Iskra have confirmed, based on their part number as supplied to Beta, that the regulated voltage is indeed 14.8 volts

 

The case, which involved a genuine Beta supplied 175 amp alternator upgrade to an existing engine, has been resolved.

 

Part of the correspondence does refer to the existing maintenance requirement in the Beta owners manuals:-

 

"B28 to B38 and B43 to B60 page 14 section 3 maintenance schedule

Daily or every 8 hours : Check battery fluid"

 

A lower voltage regulator is I beleive available for this alternator, but I do not yet have a Beta or Iskra part number for it.

Regards

Steve

 

Steve,

Many thanks for this info. It's all helpfull. I just wonder how many other new owners get into battery difficulties as easily as we have. I've never really understood electrics. However, because I consider myself generally a savy "handy man" not being able to get to the bottom of our past problems or what steps to take to avoid a repeat has thrown me completely.

Happy new year.

Bob

[Tony Brooks]

It won't be constant, when bulk charging batts will drag voltage down, 14.8v will be reached at the end of the absorption charge.

 

 

I think you will find that 1.48 is the regulated volatge which will be applied for all the absorption charge. Its the bulk charge at high current that pulls the alternator volatge down so on my observations out of a 6 hour cruising day on a tolerably well set up boat the 14.8 volts will be applied to the batteries for perhaps 4 hours. Hence Beta's totally unrealistic recommendation to check the battery level every 8 day or 8 hours. Unrealistic because from what I see the majority of narrowboat fitters totally ignore the BMEA's recommendation for battery stowage which should allow "easy access".

 

To be honest as the Greenline Range is marketed as being suitable for inland use I feel Beta have either sold something that is not fit for purpose or have little idea about how typical narrowboat batteries are stowed - in which case they are negligent or passing them selves off as experts.

[nb Innisfree]

I think you will find that 1.48 is the regulated volatge which will be applied for all the absorption charge. Its the bulk charge at high current that pulls the alternator volatge down so on my observations out of a 6 hour cruising day on a tolerably well set up boat the 14.8 volts will be applied to the batteries for perhaps 4 hours. Hence Beta's totally unrealistic recommendation to check the battery level every 8 day or 8 hours. Unrealistic because from what I see the majority of narrowboat fitters totally ignore the BMEA's recommendation for battery stowage which should allow "easy access".

 

To be honest as the Greenline Range is marketed as being suitable for inland use I feel Beta have either sold something that is not fit for purpose or have little idea about how typical narrowboat batteries are stowed - in which case they are negligent or passing them selves off as experts.

 

Yes perhaps I should have said part of the way into absorption, I was really trying to correct what I thought was NB Willawaw's impression that 14.8v is applied throughout the charge cycle including bulk though he could have been just referring to absorption anyway in which case I apologise to him. In my defence it's too easy to give an inaccurate impression of charging behaviour if casual and imprecise descriptions are made which as an instructor you must be very aware of.

 

Steve,

Many thanks for this info. It's all helpfull. I just wonder how many other new owners get into battery difficulties as easily as we have. I've never really understood electrics. However, because I consider myself generally a savy "handy man" not being able to get to the bottom of our past problems or what steps to take to avoid a repeat has thrown me completely.

Happy new year.

Bob

 

I reckon nearly all new owners get into difficulties, perhaps not early on due to long cruising periods which slow down battery deterioration but as time goes on and they perhaps settle down to less cruising then problems start to appear. Though I spent many hours reading about batteries etc it still took me a couple of years to get fully to grips with the reality of battery life and charging/discharging.

[Slim]

Hi to all responders,

14.8 amps is the quoted Iskra output but cos I'm new to all this and not on Jam Pudd til march I'm unable to say if that's what's being pumped out. I wasn't specifically checking this read-out on the battery monitor. The Victron Inverter guide says that the SOC read-out is the critical figure to monitor. Later I was advised thet the most important read-out to watch on the monitor is the voltage left in the battery bank AND not to let it drop below 12.2 volts. (being about 50% realistic SOC.) Most times when I checked what the readings at 12.2 volts the SOC was showing above 85%! I'm also now told that after recharging to 100% I should note amps out then make sure that I recharge same amount back in PLUS 20%!

 

My main purpose in posting this item is that I'm looking for guidance from the "experienced" on what steps I should take to aviod a repeat with AGM's and this 14.8 volt/175 amp alternator. We use a max of 100 amps in any one day so what size bank should we buy and what suggestions have you to recharge at a lower voltage?

Thanks for responses one and all.

Bob

NB Jam Pudd

 

 

 

 

Bob,

 

I've come to this topic late and IN NO WAY am I an expert. However I do have a 550 ah services bank of Multcell AGMs that are about 4 1/2 years old and going strong. They are charged either by twin 70 a alternators through an Adverc controller or a Mastervolt MASS 60 amp charger. Monitoring is via a Mastervolt MICC. In common with others i've received / read so much conflicting advice that I simply didn't (indeed still don't) know what to believe. I e mailed Multicell seeking advice and was told by Clive Ringrose from their Leicester branch that their AGMs shold be bulk charged @ 14.8 volts and float charged @13.8 volts. I still have the e mail in question.

 

 

Frank

[bob ellison]

Thanks, Frank for this info. I believe that my delema stems from not being able to get my charge level down low enough to safely float charge. An A2B charge controller would be great but as I understand it these don't reduce the charge current from the alternator. As you may have read from responses, BETA mat be fitting an alternator unfit for purpose. Kingsground Narrowboats (builder) will be taking this up direct with Beta marine within the gaurentee period. Kingsground's engineer, Clive Mant, has sorted out satisfactorily the few other few issues we've had with third party equipment. Albeit our battery problem has confused us all I believe that we've now found the cause. A suitable solution must be found by Beta and because I've learned that they can only reduce the Iskra charge level to 14.4v I will probably push them into replacing itwith a slightly lower rated alternator.

Cheers.

Bob

[NB Willawaw]

Bob,

 

You are correct. The constant 14.8V output which could be held at that level all day if you are cruising many hours for example in the light of the summer months, will cause problems with your batteries and will never fall back to a suitable float level, causing gassing.

 

I'm not sure I understand your point about the A2B ? - the Sterling for example would accept a normal regulated output voltage from an alternator and provide a suitable voltage output to meet the multistage charging requirements ??

 

Its more electronics, more space and more expense though.

 

Another alternative is the 14.4V 175A alternator, with a more low tech "solution" to achieve a lesser float level at the right time and meet the AGM charging stages.

 

We have the 110A domestic alternator on our 8-year old Beta 43. I would go for the biggest alternator given the chance and suspect I am limited by the existing drive arrangements. TBH the extra expense for me is not worth the benefit I would get, but starting again, I would choose the 175A and resolve the voltage issue.

 

Good luck whatever you choose.

Edited January 1, 2011 by NB Willawaw

[blodger]

I think you will find Beta are supplying alternators with a 14.8v regulated voltage.

 

This should be OK with Lead Calcium or silver calcium batteries but would probably cause lead antinomy ones to gas. However it should not ruin the lead antinomy ones PROVIDING they are kept topped up.

 

Now, unless you get new batteries from a real specialist I would not trust them to have a clue about the plate technology so with a 14.8 regulated volatge I would go for ordinary open cell batteries and try to get lead calcium ones. At least you can then check and top them up very regularly (boat design allowing ).

 

One major advanced controller supplier is rumoured to have suggested that these alternators have hefty diode fitted in their main charging lead to drop the voltage.

 

I just wondered how the diode drop was achieved without the alternator loosing sensing for the regulator.

 

I have dropped the volts on on old Lucas trickle charger by just sticking a diode in line. However, others will not work if you try this trick. I suppose alts are the same?

[Tony Brooks]

I just wondered how the diode drop was achieved without the alternator loosing sensing for the regulator.

 

I have dropped the volts on on old Lucas trickle charger by just sticking a diode in line. However, others will not work if you try this trick. I suppose alts are the same?

 

Alternators tend to sense from the output of the field/auxiliary diodes which is almost the same saying their main output terminal. These are inside the case so anything outside the case can not affect the sensing voltage. Battery sensed alternators are far rarer and different. I very much doubt a Skoda ( ) alternator is battery sensed.

 

A modern battery charger probably shuts the charge down periodically so it can then measure and guess the battery's state of charge so it can switch to float etc at the appropriate time so preventing battery voltage reaching the would probably persuade it to shut down to save a potential short between the clips which the charger thinks are not on a battery.

[blodger]

Alternators tend to sense from the output of the field/auxiliary diodes which is almost the same saying their main output terminal. These are inside the case so anything outside the case can not affect the sensing voltage. Battery sensed alternators are far rarer and different. I very much doubt a Skoda ( ) alternator is battery sensed.

 

A modern battery charger probably shuts the charge down periodically so it can then measure and guess the battery's state of charge so it can switch to float etc at the appropriate time so preventing battery voltage reaching the would probably persuade it to shut down to save a potential short between the clips which the charger thinks are not on a battery.

Thanks for that. The problem is usually the other way round trying to up the volts by inserting diodes in the feedback to the reg. The OP is fortunate to have a high volt reg IMO but needs to devise some form of heavy duty diode dropping switch in while he discovers that the 14.8v is not the problem he and others think?

[bottle]

Bob by this

I will probably push them into replacing it with a slightly lower rated alternator.

you mean voltage, possibly yes but not amperage.

 

As has been said just get the voltage sorted, if you want to, because of the type of batteries you have/will fit.

[Tony Brooks]

Thanks for that. The problem is usually the other way round trying to up the volts by inserting diodes in the feedback to the reg. The OP is fortunate to have a high volt reg IMO but needs to devise some form of heavy duty diode dropping switch in while he discovers that the 14.8v is not the problem he and others think?

 

 

The problem is his lack of maintenance (topping up) and/or unsuitable battery technology. This problem is not a one off and I suspect more and more will come to light. However using vehicle practises where the control of battery type fitted is completely in the manufacturers' hands must be a little unwise unless you think through the likely consequences for the market into which you are selling. Beta have very little control over the batteries being fitted and absolutely no control over how people use their boats. I suspect those who try to keep their batteries fully charged with long running times will suffer more than those who do not and run for shorter periods.

 

If the boat builders would only fit batteries so they can be easily checked for level there would not be so much of a potential problem. Until then its up top the boater to somehow find out what battery technology they are using and if it is lead antinomy do something about the regulated voltage.

[bob ellison]

Bob,

 

You are correct. The constant 14.8V output which could be held at that level all day if you are cruising many hours for example in the light of the summer months, will cause problems with your batteries and will never fall back to a suitable float level, causing gassing.

 

I'm not sure I understand your point about the A2B ? - the Sterling for example would accept a normal regulated output voltage from an alternator and provide a suitable voltage output to meet the multistage charging requirements ??

 

Its more electronics, more space and more expense though.

 

Another alternative is the 14.4V 175A alternator, with a more low tech "solution" to achieve a lesser float level at the right time and meet the AGM charging stages.

 

We have the 110A domestic alternator on our 8-year old Beta 43. I would go for the biggest alternator given the chance and suspect I am limited by the existing drive arrangements. TBH the extra expense for me is not worth the benefit I would get, but starting again, I would choose the 175A and resolve the voltage issue.

 

Good luck whatever you choose.

 

Thanks for this input, NB Willawaw. I hear what you say and will hopefully find a solution thru builder/Beta/Adverc or Sterling coming up with the right way forward. On a final note; beware anyone planning to have a hybrid or pure electric boat built!!

Cheers.

Bob

 

The problem is his lack of maintenance (topping up) and/or unsuitable battery technology. This problem is not a one off and I suspect more and more will come to light. However using vehicle practises where the control of battery type fitted is completely in the manufacturers' hands must be a little unwise unless you think through the likely consequences for the market into which you are selling. Beta have very little control over the batteries being fitted and absolutely no control over how people use their boats. I suspect those who try to keep their batteries fully charged with long running times will suffer more than those who do not and run for shorter periods.

 

If the boat builders would only fit batteries so they can be easily checked for level there would not be so much of a potential problem. Until then its up top the boater to somehow find out what battery technology they are using and if it is lead antinomy do something about the regulated voltage.

 

Hi Tony and all others,

To perhaps bring this item of interest to a close before I become even more confused with terminology and technological alternatives open to me I'd just like to thank all respondents for their input. I'll update the blog on progress in the next week or so. Cheers and a happy problem free year cruising to you all.

Bob

NB Jam Pudd - the one with torpedo tubes!!

[Nickhlx]

Hello Nick

Can you PM me the Iskra part number off your alternator?

Would be interested to see if its the same as the one I've been involved with at work.

Not aware of there being two different versions supplied with/for Beta engines.

Have a good New Year.

Thanks

Steve

 

Hi Steve,

 

I didn't get up to the boat on Sunday but did today, although forgot the camera - I was surprised to see that it is outputting a "nominal 14.8 volts" - The batteries were on shorepower and had been floating at around the normal Victron 13.2 volts and were at 100% SOC. Upon starting the engine and leaving for a few minutes, the charging current was approx 2 amps and the voltage reading 14.65 V - I used my calibrated Voltmeter, which agrees with the Victron VE net panel meter voltage, and assumed that as very little current was flowing in / out of the battery bank, the voltage at the distribution board would have been very close to that at the battery bank terminals - I will verify that next time I am up, and it's light ( unlike this evening). I will also try and remeber the camera next time !

 

Nick