Wind turbines. A good idea?

[Chrissyboy]

Hi everyone.

 

I'm on a liveaboard and thinking of investing in a wind turbine. I saw one the other day on a boat and it was a right beast - shackled at about six different points on the deck and prob 10 to 12 feet high with a big blade that was spinning like a good'un.

 

Are these a good investment as a means to just keep adding juice to the batteries etc and if so what sort of costs are involved? Recommended makes etc?

 

Thanks a lot

 

Chris

[Grace and Favour]

Hi everyone.

 

I'm on a liveaboard and thinking of investing in a wind turbine. I saw one the other day on a boat and it was a right beast - shackled at about six different points on the deck and prob 10 to 12 feet high with a big blade that was spinning like a good'un.

 

Are these a good investment as a means to just keep adding juice to the batteries etc and if so what sort of costs are involved? Recommended makes etc?

 

Thanks a lot

 

Chris

 

I'm sure if you do a search on here you'll find some useful info . .

 

And, as I haven't got one - I'll be of little use, save to say that I've been on a couple of boats with them - and, when they're spinning, and affixed to the boat, they don't half create a deal of noise in the cabin - a really resonant whirring

Edited September 20, 2010 by Grace & Favour

[Nine of Hearts]

Depends what you want it for. As far as I'm aware, they're ok if all you want to do is keep your batteries topped up whilst they are under no load. If you're thinking that they'll power a fridge or such like while you're out, I doubt very much they will.

 

I did a brief stint with a firm that specialized in home insulation. They branched out into alternative energies, too and although they still do solar hot water and the odd solar panel, they've abandonned the turbines because in the words of the MD, "they don't generate shit".

[Nickhlx]

Initially I thought they were a good idea but now that solar panels have come down so much in price, think that solar is the better way to invest in power generation.

 

With wind, the downsides are that the turbine is necessarily on a pole, and has to be taken down for cruising / moving unless no bridges or other obstructions on your route. Naturally you have to be in quite a breezy area to get good output - possibly too windy to cruise comfortably. Some days are too low a windspeed to be useful, and if on board, at night it can be too noisy. it is also at a low risk of being nicked. The plus points are that it is available to operate 24/7, i.e. nightime as well as daytime.

 

With solar, these work off daylight, not only direct sunlight, although that does give a higher output, and it will give an output every day ( even with no wind !) If the panels are the stuck down type, there is minimal risk of it being stolen.

 

Panels are now up to around 20% efficient and seem to be improving every month at the moment, although the highest output type are the most expensive too.

 

Depending on the capacity of battery bank you have and whether you want it to contribute to just topping up when away from the boat or running equipment by day, this requirement will largely decide what you need. The best of both worlds would be achieved with some generation from each system.

 

Nick

[Chrissyboy]

Initially I thought they were a good idea but now that solar panels have come down so much in price, think that solar is the better way to invest in power generation.

 

With wind, the downsides are that the turbine is necessarily on a pole, and has to be taken down for cruising / moving unless no bridges or other obstructions on your route. Naturally you have to be in quite a breezy area to get good output - possibly too windy to cruise comfortably. Some days are too low a windspeed to be useful, and if on board, at night it can be too noisy. it is also at a low risk of being nicked. The plus points are that it is available to operate 24/7, i.e. nightime as well as daytime.

 

With solar, these work off daylight, not only direct sunlight, although that does give a higher output, and it will give an output every day ( even with no wind !) If the panels are the stuck down type, there is minimal risk of it being stolen.

 

Panels are now up to around 20% efficient and seem to be improving every month at the moment, although the highest output type are the most expensive too.

 

Depending on the capacity of battery bank you have and whether you want it to contribute to just topping up when away from the boat or running equipment by day, this requirement will largely decide what you need. The best of both worlds would be achieved with some generation from each system.

 

Nick

 

Hi Nick

 

Thanks for the feedback.

 

I'll be running a fridge, flatscreen tv x 2, a 230v central heating pump and a laptop. I'm just wondering if wind or solar is the best way to go for generating elec to the batts to help power these as a back up to a gennie.

 

Do you know why stick on solar panels are not likely to get stolen? I would have thought they wee more vulnerable as you can just roll them up or am I missing something?

 

Regards

 

Chris

[bottle]

From what little research I have done, you need gale force winds and even then they will only 'trickle' charge.

 

In my opinion they are only good for ensuring that your batteries will not go flat if you leave the boat for a long time.

 

Then only if it is windy.

[Nickhlx]

The stick on solar panels are almost invisible, being only about 5 mm thick - the glue is so strong that it would destroy the panel to remove them, so making it pointless to steal them.

 

Your loading, plus a few lights is, I would guess, somewhere between 300 and 400 watts. In November / December through to February / March, after 16-00 hours you will have no solar generation, so will be relying on wind generation, and either the generator or engine alternator, or start depleting the battery bank.

 

Is it not possible to get shore power ? The issue with deep-cycling the batteries, especially every day, is that you would have to run the engine / generator for maybe 8 hours a day, to replenish and power the equipment, which is not really desirable and certainly expensive, both on fuel and ultimately batteries. If you ran say 350 watts for say 6 hours ( allowing for the fridge overnight) that would be around 175 Ah, needing a battery bank of say a minimum of 350 Ah and preferably around 500 Ah. The generator whatever that would be will have to restore approx 1.4 times the Ah used, say 250 Ah, which would need a minimum of approx a 100 amp alternator and maybe 8 hours of running to fully restore the charge used. ( Experts will be along soon to confirm / modify my (g) estimates..)

 

Is it all painting a picture for you ?

 

Nick

Edited September 20, 2010 by Nickhlx

[Dekazer]

We inherited one with the boat. It has been useful, but I suspect only in our very limited circumstances, viz:

 

We have shoreline hook up and a Rutland 360 wind turbine, pretty standard issue. Until now we have not had a battery charger (installed a new Victron Multiplus on Sunday!). We only run 3 things off the batteries: 12v ceiling lights, water pump, under bath gulper.

 

We live in a little wind tunnel and have found that, particularly in winter, our wind turbine has kept the batteries sufficiently charged to mean we only had to run the engine once a fortnight or so, compared to more frequently without it. Now we have the Victron charger, I doubt we'll keep the turbine raised while on our home mooring.

 

Until, when cruising, we haven't seen a great deal of benefit. Partly because of unrelated things (fairly rubbish batteries, not very good inverter etc) we have found it is not enough to power the appliances we might want to use.

 

The downsides to the turbine are the noise (especially if it's right above your bed - although I like the sound OH thinks it sounds like a jet engine taking off!) and it's a pain to put up and take down every time you want to move the boat.

 

One small extra advantage is the battery charge monitor that comes with it. We don't have any other way of reading the battery charge, so have found that comes in hand.

 

Hope that helps in some small way

 

Lucy

[Nickhlx]

One thing I would definitely suggest you fit is a Smartgauge battery monitor to avoid killing the batteries in short order - rule of thumb is to avoid discharging below 50% else longevity increasingly compromised, and to always fully recharge the following day - this will tell you when they reach full charge and the engine / generator can be switched off unless powering other items - you would quickly learn the "balance" regime of when to turn off the generating device, to achieve e.g. the 50% discharge by the following morning, and avoid both running the generator longer than necessary and shortening the battery life quicker than you need to - I would recommend you get either Trojans ( 1200 cycle claimed life) or the 2 volt cells ( even more) - standard leisure batteries have a poor 100 or 200 cycles life. E.g 4 off Trojan T125 would give you 12 volts and 480Ah, which would be in the ball park from data supplied... ( You haven't said whether 12 or 24 volt boat, so assuming 12 volt)

 

Nick

 

 

[Chrissyboy]

The stick on solar panels are almost invisible, being only about 5 mm thick - the glue is so strong that it would destroy the panel to remove them, so making it pointless to steal them.

 

Your loading, plus a few lights is, I would guess, somewhere between 300 and 400 watts. In November / December through to February / March, after 16-00 hours you will have no solar generation, so will be relying on wind generation, and either the generator or engine alternator, or start depleting the battery bank.

 

Is it not possible to get shore power ? The issue with deep-cycling the batteries, especially every day, is that you would have to run the engine / generator for maybe 8 hours a day, to replenish and power the equipment, which is not really desirable and certainly expensive, both on fuel and ultimately batteries. If you ran say 350 watts for say 6 hours ( allowing for the fridge overnight) that would be around 175 Ah, needing a battery bank of say a minimum of 350 Ah and preferably around 500 Ah. The generator whatever that would be will have to restore approx 1.4 times the Ah used, say 250 Ah, which would need a minimum of approx a 100 amp alternator and maybe 8 hours of running to fully restore the charge used. ( Experts will be along soon to confirm / modify my (g) estimates..)

 

Is it all painting a picture for you ?

 

Nick

 

Hi Nick

 

I'm going to invest in a Honda EU 20i generator to power the batteries as the engine/alternator is just too noisy and full of vibrations.

 

I can't use hook up as I live on the canal bank. Will the generator cope? I have bought a 60w solar panel too but will prob buy at least one more.

 

Chris

[nb Innisfree]

Problem with standard horizontal axis wind turbines on the canals is turbulence, you see lots of them just rotating on their mountings doing nothing. I have spoken to a few owners who were a bit non committal except one who said he had paid £1000+ and it was a 'waste of f****** money'! I think he was the only one who had the bottle to admit his mistake.

[FadeToScarlet]

It looks like you've come to some conclusions, but just to reinforce them in your mind, we had a wind turbine- Rutland 913, so quite big- and, despite being moored in the Fens, ideal wind turbine country, it never did more than trickle charge the batteries. It helped, but it had to be seriously windy for it to give any real benefit.

 

We once got 48Ah from it in one day, but that was seriously windy. And despite doing all we could to acoustically isolate it from the boat, it was noisy.

 

We have 136w of solar now, and I ran the generator the other day for the first time since April! OK our power needs are far less than yours, but the panel has made a very big difference.

 

The one tip I would give for solar is to get a very good regulator, ideally an MPPT one. Most regulators limit the voltage of the panels at about 14 volts maximum, when they can perform more efficiently higher up- the MPPT (maximum power point tracking) allows the panels to function at a higher voltage, so they're always producing the maximum possible power for the conditions.

[Nickhlx]

The EU 20i is a very good generator and I would suggest that model over the smaller EU10i, as that will be working around its limit when charging the battery bank at an adequately high rate. It has a good clean output suitable for powering sensitive 230Vac electronic equipment.

 

I would also suggest either looking at e.g the Sterling 12 volt 50 Amp Pro Digital Charger to run from this, which really is a bit on the small side for rapid battery replenishment, or if you will be wanting mains available in the evenings, you would need an inverter. It used to be said that Sterling produced good 12 volt equipment and not-so-good mains kit, so for an Inverter you could look at either Victron or Mastervolt Combis, which are an inverter and charger all in one box.

 

The Victron 2000 watt with a 80 amp charger should be in the right ball park - it depends what your maximum load on mains will be - If you want / need to power a washing machine, then perhaps the larger 12/3000/120 - 3000 VA (2500 watts) continuous with a 120 amp charger might do the job - Both Victron and Mastervolt are top notch pieces of equipment. I am familiar with the 12/3000/120 and can confirm it is an excellent piece of equipment with several good features.

 

To me it sounds like you are necessarily going to have to run the generator for several hours a day if you really are going to use that equipment. Whatever people say, if you significantly discharge a battery overnight, it will take 6 to 8 hours to fully recharge the battery bank - it may be that you can get away with charging to around 80% with approx 3 or 4 hours charging, for 2 or 3 days and then running it for the full time required to bring it up to 100% charge as confirmed by the Smartgauge say twice a week. One of the quickest ways to kill the new expensive battery bank is by not fully charging each day, and the last 10% ( vital) will take maybe 2 hours to get in - it simply one of the characteristics of batteries.

 

Going back to basics, being economical on the power usage by being careful with the usage and choosing where possible the most efficient products will make a massive difference to the fuel bill. Where possible use LED lights and if not already chosen, a 12 volt fridge will save conversion losses compared to a albeit cheaper 230 V fridge which immediately compells you to have the inverter on 24/7. The fridge is the biggest user of power over the 24 hour cycle, so a wise purchase here will pay dividends. Some people "charge" the fridge up by running it on max or coldest during the day, when the genny is running with possibly extra ice packs in the ice box, and then turning the fridge down to minimum ( or even off) for overnight, when the ice packs will maintain the fridge at an acceptably cold temp. Changing the general lighting from e.g. 10 watt bulbs to 2 watt LED bulbs is worth it - if you have say 10 on for the majority of the evening, say 6 hours, and these are 2 w instead of 10 watts each the difference is around 50 Ah with halogen and around 10 Ah with LED, saving a massive 40 Ah, which requires 60 Ah to be produced to replenish the power consumed..

 

It would definitely be worth doing a power audit as best you can to see what your needs really are - i.e. how long each electrical item you will use is on for, and how much power each takes. This will enable you to start somewhere with a good idea what you will need as regards battery capacity, charging requirements, and inverter size.

 

Regards,

 

Nick

[blodger]

 

To me it sounds like you are necessarily going to have to run the generator for several hours a day if you really are going to use that equipment. Whatever people say, if you significantly discharge a battery overnight, it will take 6 to 8 hours to fully recharge the battery bank - it may be that you can get away with charging to around 80% with approx 3 or 4 hours charging, for 2 or 3 days and then running it for the full time required to bring it up to 100% charge as confirmed by the Smartgauge say twice a week.

 

Where possible use LED lights and if not already chosen, a 12 volt fridge will save conversion losses compared to a albeit cheaper 230 V fridge which immediately compells you to have the inverter on 24/7. The fridge is the biggest user of power over the 24 hour cycle

 

I think having a solar panel(s) and wind charger gives you some credit with potential complainants when you have to run a genny or your engine at a mooring; at least they can see you are trying not to have to!

[Nickhlx]

I think having a solar panel(s) and wind charger gives you some credit with potential complainants when you have to run a genny or your engine at a mooring; at least they can see you are trying not to have to!

 

 

I would agree with that - I think its good to have more than one source of power anyway. When the weather is stable and settled in summer its usually hot and calm, and when it's not, it's usually windy. Inherently though, canals are waterways which are in "valleys" generally, with obvious exceptions like East Anglia. However at least its clear that you have made an obvious attempt to minimise generator running to an onlooker which must gain some brownie points ...

 

Nick

[Scooby]

We are liveaboards, i got an 100watt solar panel then a month later got a rutland 913, then you have best of both worlds, yes its makes a little bit of noise but bedroom at front wind turbine at the back so its fine, winter months coming so when solar panel not working we will most likely have wind power instead, got a mppt regulater and wired both into it, works fine, at moment solar is better but i am sure its will be wind power for the winter...

 

£400 for the solar panel with wiring and regulator, approx £600 for rutland 913 and pole..only problem with turbine is having to put it up and down but i dont mind it and i like the look of it when its spinning...does need to be spinning pretty fast to work though, but doesnt take much wind before its going..with both i can run fridge all the time and its a biggish fridge as well on 24/7 with freezer compartment.

[blodger]

We are liveaboards, i got an 100watt solar panel then a month later got a rutland 913, then you have best of both worlds, yes its makes a little bit of noise but bedroom at front wind turbine at the back so its fine, winter months coming so when solar panel not working we will most likely have wind power instead, got a mppt regulater and wired both into it, works fine, at moment solar is better but i am sure its will be wind power for the winter...

 

£400 for the solar panel with wiring and regulator, approx £600 for rutland 913 and pole..only problem with turbine is having to put it up and down but i dont mind it and i like the look of it when its spinning...does need to be spinning pretty fast to work though, but doesnt take much wind before its going..with both i can run fridge all the time and its a biggish fridge as well on 24/7 with freezer compartment.

Yes, so often the turbine is turning in 'light airs' and producing voltages below charging. I am experimenting with a (11.00) Virtual Village 3.5 amp voltage doubler that I can switch in or out to try to capture some of it. Your mppt will be doing something similar?

 

(I have hooked 2 x 60watt panels by switched diodes to three banks and two starter batts (15 in all) to do away with the standard controller that seems to shut off charging before it need to. The batts clamp down the voltage to the equivalent of a mains charger float voltage.)

 

I have constructed a sturmey archer dynohub wind charger 6v 6watts out in the sticks to maintain 2 heavy batteries on an old tractor. Such an arrangement, with a voltage doubler that is, seems to be keeping them charged at 0.2v above their norm. I am hoping for better in the winter!

Edited September 21, 2010 by blodger

[mayalld]

I think having a solar panel(s) and wind charger gives you some credit with potential complainants when you have to run a genny or your engine at a mooring; at least they can see you are trying not to have to!

 

It wouldn't if you moored near me!

 

If you were running your engine during permitted hours, then you would get no objection from me, and you don't need any gadgetry to "prove" that you are trying to run your engine less.

 

If you were running your engine outside the permitted hours then you will be asked politely to turn it off, regardless of whether you were trying not to have to.

[Evo]

Been watching this thread with interest. I bought a wind turbine (macrowind 200 ?) but before I got around to erecting a pole I bought some cheap solar panels. The Panels do the job perfectly, and very unobtrusively. I dont think I need the wind machine anymore, so its sitting there in its box all brand new.

 

The problem I had was that when I read the installation instructions for the turbine they said:-

 

Minimum of 30ft in the air in open landscape with no vertical sided objects (Sheds etc) within x feet. All the machines I see in the UK are inadequately installed. 8ft pole on top of a boat is about the worst posible installation.

A flat slab of near vertical steel shooting air upwards and disturbing the 'through air' they say is the worse thing you can do...turbulent air can appear strong but its actually doing nothing, a soft oneway breeze up at 30ft will be far more effective. Really you need one of those towers from the Ranches of the old American West - water pump were they..??

 

So I gave up with it..!!! 30ft in the air on a very long pole with guy wires and huge ground to boat cables is a serious installation, especially on a rented mooring. Lying 4 panels on the roof of the boat seems far more appealing.

[Scooby]

 

its not that high...

[AjW]

Most turbines are rated for speeds above 12mph which is above average for most places in the UK.

Check here:

http://www.bwea.com/images/misc/noabl_c.gif

 

But you can't compare the ratings of the turbines as they rated for different wind speeds:

http://www.bettergeneration.com/wind-turbine-reviews.html

 

I have a Wren. At 10mph it's enough to run the laptop/modem/router etc during the daytime. At 15mph+ it's enough to do that, charge the laptop battery from flat and chuck a bit into the leisure batteries. If we leave the boat for a day at those speeds the leisure batts go from 12.2v to 12.8v.

I live with wide open spaces for 270degrees round the boat catching wind from West, South and East.

Edited September 21, 2010 by AjW

[Evo]

Scooby...from the instuctions I have that has to be about the worst mounting position for a wind turbine its posible to have. How many days a year do you reckon yours actually produces anything worthwhile. Not being funny but the guys I have spoken to with similar setups are very scathing of them. Quotes like "Well if it produces any AMPS at all then they are very little ones".

 

You seem happy with yours, do you know what its outputting? Do you think it would keep a bank of 4 batteries charged up - where the boat was just laid up on a mooring and not being used.

[Chrissyboy]

I'll get a 12 volt fridge to keep the drain on the batteries down to a minimum.

 

I'll prob get a couple of these stick on solar panels.

 

http://www.midsummerenergy.co.uk/buy/peelnstick_solar_panels/unisolar_pvl68_peel_n_stick_solar_panel.html

 

Or maybe just one of the larger type.

 

http://www.midsummerenergy.co.uk/buy/peelnstick_solar_panels/unisolar_pvl136_peel_n_stick_solar_panel.html

 

 

These, combined with the Honda 20i gennie should suffice.

 

Having said that I've only go 3 x 90amp(?) domestic batteries, that came with the boat. Do I need to replace them with 120amp equivalents? Or do I need to add another 90amp battery?

 

regards

 

Chris

[nb Innisfree]

I'll get a 12 volt fridge to keep the drain on the batteries down to a minimum.

 

I'll prob get a couple of these stick on solar panels.

 

http://www.midsummerenergy.co.uk/buy/peelnstick_solar_panels/unisolar_pvl68_peel_n_stick_solar_panel.html

 

Or maybe just one of the larger type.

 

http://www.midsummerenergy.co.uk/buy/peelnstick_solar_panels/unisolar_pvl136_peel_n_stick_solar_panel.html

 

 

These, combined with the Honda 20i gennie should suffice.

 

Having said that I've only go 3 x 90amp(?) domestic batteries, that came with the boat. Do I need to replace them with 120amp equivalents? Or do I need to add another 90amp battery?

 

regards

 

Chris

 

Trying to fully recharge from a genny on a daily basis is a non starter, better to use partial state of charging, i.e. charge up to acceptance voltage daily and do a full 8+ hours equalisation charge either, say, once a week or when voltage starts to drop below 12.2. This regime will require batts replacing more often but this is cheaper than burning fuel. If you are unable to last 24hrs without voltage dropping below 12.2 to 12.3 then I suggest you increase the size of your battery bank.

[Chrissyboy]

Trying to fully recharge from a genny on a daily basis is a non starter, better to use partial state of charging, i.e. charge up to acceptance voltage daily and do a full 8+ hours equalisation charge either, say, once a week or when voltage starts to drop below 12.2. This regime will require batts replacing more often but this is cheaper than burning fuel. If you are unable to last 24hrs without voltage dropping below 12.2 to 12.3 then I suggest you increase the size of your battery bank.

 

Thanks NB for the input.

 

My problem is that my boat came without any means whatsoever of measuring the state of play in the batteries. I need to sort it sharpish.