Does this make sense??

[saxon]

I'm getting diesel fuel in the engine oil to the extent that the oil level on the dipstick rises after the engine has run for some time. At slow revs it's "lumpy" smooths out at high revs. Starting a bit sluggish, not as before fault developed..on the button..Plenty of compression/power. Thin hazy blue smoke on start up decreasing to not much when engine is warm. Then...noticeable drop in oil pressure at which point my courage fails and I pull the engine stop..Checked the fuel lift pump..diaphram nearly as new. Injectors all working..whats left ? High pressure fuel pump on the blink? CAV type. Saxon.

[alan_fincher]

What engine type ?

 

Air cooled Lister, perchance ?

[Keeping Up]

My Perkins MC42 did that when it was fairly new, it was a crack in the body of the high-pressure (injector) pump assembly.

[saxon]

No Alan, It's a late 1970's Watermota Seapanther. Salt water intake cooling freshwater jacket. I'm told it's basically a marinised Ford Cortina block. I think they were not uncommon in a petrol version at least (The sea Tiger) in many motorboats of 1960/70's. A basic 4 cylinder engine that to my non professional eye looks like a Ford Transit engine with a water jacket...

[saxon]

My Perkins MC42 did that when it was fairly new, it was a crack in the body of the high-pressure (injector) pump assembly.

 

Gulp!! I'll clean it off and have a careful crawl round to check for that, thanks.

[alan_fincher]

No Alan, It's a late 1970's Watermota Seapanther. Salt water intake cooling freshwater jacket.

Sorry, can't help then.

 

Certain Listers have a track record of dumping fuel into the sump, but I don't know anything about Fords.

[RobinJ]

I'm getting diesel fuel in the engine oil to the extent that the oil level on the dipstick rises after the engine has run for some time. At slow revs it's "lumpy" smooths out at high revs. Starting a bit sluggish, not as before fault developed..on the button..Plenty of compression/power. Thin hazy blue smoke on start up decreasing to not much when engine is warm. Then...noticeable drop in oil pressure at which point my courage fails and I pull the engine stop..Checked the fuel lift pump..diaphram nearly as new. Injectors all working..whats left ? High pressure fuel pump on the blink? CAV type. Saxon.

If I remember correctly, the fuel pump is mounted at the front of the block on the right and although not impossible, can't see how fuel would get into the oil?

Lift pump is favourite - you say ok? Does the oil level rise when you leave it with the fuel turned on?

Bad injector/poor compression, leaking past rings or possibly bad head gasket - could explain 'lumpyness', is it actually misfiring?

Only other thought, I had a fuel leak on one of these and couldn't find it, grabbed the fuel pipes to the injector pump and fuel sprayed out for about 10 feet. It was a crack on the bend near the block, is there any way that could spray into the engine?

If its only happening when the engine is running then it has to be either the head or the injector pump, doesn't it?

[NB Alnwick]

Apologies if this has been said already but I would be tempted to look at the low pressure fuel lift pump first. If I recall correctly, this runs directly off the engine camshaft and if the diaphragm splits or is holed, fuel will be able to enter the engine sump directly.

[saxon]

If I remember correctly, the fuel pump is mounted at the front of the block on the right and although not impossible, can't see how fuel would get into the oil?

Lift pump is favourite - you say ok? Does the oil level rise when you leave it with the fuel turned on?

Bad injector/poor compression, leaking past rings or possibly bad head gasket - could explain 'lumpyness', is it actually misfiring?

Only other thought, I had a fuel leak on one of these and couldn't find it, grabbed the fuel pipes to the injector pump and fuel sprayed out for about 10 feet. It was a crack on the bend near the block, is there any way that could spray into the engine?

If its only happening when the engine is running then it has to be either the head or the injector pump, doesn't it?

 

Yep, lift pump runs off a lever bearing on the camshaft. Pump removed and diaphragm found to be as new. all cleaned and replaced.

 

No evidence of fuel oil spraying outside of engine or engine bay and tank is in deep bilge so no drainage into engine when engine is off.

 

I´m guessing again, but if the fuel metering to the injectors via the high pressure pump is the cause, then excess fuel gets sprayed into the bores and runs down into the sump. After a while diesel fuel washes the bores of lube oil and I get oil pressure drop.

 

No evidence of water in the oil or deposit under the rocker box cover as sometimes occurs with blown head gaskets.

So fair chance it´s the injector pump which is wonderful news, because the engine manual says..to remove injector pump it is necessary to first remove engine bearer...oh! goody they´ve only been bolted up for 34 years.. saxon

[Steve Goddard]

I don't think it could be as you said with excess fuel running past the rings and into the sump. First of all you wouldn't keep liquid fuel in the bores with the engine running. If there was to much fuel then the engine would either smoke (black) like hell or hydraulic lock and bend something terminally.

 

If it's not the low pressure pump could it be the injection pump somehow leaking through the drive shaft into the timing cover? I seem to remember that the internals of the pump are lubricated with diesel.

 

 

I´m guessing again, but if the fuel metering to the injectors via the high pressure pump is the cause, then excess fuel gets sprayed into the bores and runs down into the sump. After a while diesel fuel washes the bores of lube oil and I get oil pressure drop.

 

[saxon]

I don't think it could be as you said with excess fuel running past the rings and into the sump. First of all you wouldn't keep liquid fuel in the bores with the engine running. If there was to much fuel then the engine would either smoke (black) like hell or hydraulic lock and bend something terminally.

 

If it's not the low pressure pump could it be the injection pump somehow leaking through the drive shaft into the timing cover? I seem to remember that the internals of the pump are lubricated with diesel.

 

I think you may well be spot on Steve, it does smoke a bit but not enough to support my idea of bores flooding. The high pressure pump relies on diesel for lubrication and the drive shaft may very well be the guilty part. Thanks for that, it's going to have to come off...eewww! bruises on the way.

[RobinJ]

I´m guessing again, but if the fuel metering to the injectors via the high pressure pump is the cause, then excess fuel gets sprayed into the bores and runs down into the sump. After a while diesel fuel washes the bores of lube oil and I get oil pressure drop.

 

No evidence of water in the oil or deposit under the rocker box cover as sometimes occurs with blown head gaskets.

So fair chance it´s the injector pump which is wonderful news, because the engine manual says..to remove injector pump it is necessary to first remove engine bearer...oh! goody they´ve only been bolted up for 34 years.. saxon

Thats basically what happens when you loose compression on one cylinder, the diesel ends up running down the side wall and if ejected through the exhaust generally produces a whitish smoke (black when its partially burnt), or seeps past the rings into the sump.

You only get sludge if the head gasket is blown between cylinder and water jacket or water jacket and oilway, it is possible for it to blow between cylinders or into an oilway. You may not see any exhaust fumes unless you remove the oil filler cap?

There are some high pressures in the injector pump, so it could have blown a seal suddenly, but I thought the only area where it was attached to the engine was at the front! I suppose it could leak down the drive shaft and into the oilways?

[saxon]

Thats basically what happens when you loose compression on one cylinder, the diesel ends up running down the side wall and if ejected through the exhaust generally produces a whitish smoke (black when its partially burnt), or seeps past the rings into the sump.

You only get sludge if the head gasket is blown between cylinder and water jacket or water jacket and oilway, it is possible for it to blow between cylinders or into an oilway. You may not see any exhaust fumes unless you remove the oil filler cap?

There are some high pressures in the injector pump, so it could have blown a seal suddenly, but I thought the only area where it was attached to the engine was at the front! I suppose it could leak down the drive shaft and into the oilways?

 

Thinking about it Robin, the most logical thing to do is get a compression test done before I start surgery on the HP pump. The pump is bolted on to the front cover of the engine and can be slackened off to alter pump timing on the marks. Ideally it needs a 3 foot tall mechanic with telescopic eyes and magnetic fingers to work on it, so I'll go with a compression test first I think.. Thanks.. Saxon

[Slim]

I don't know the engine but where are the spill rails? Are they internal (under the the rocker box cover)? If so a friend had an identical problem on a larger Ford engine of similar vintage. His problem turned out to be cracked brazing where the rail was attached to the individual injector banjos.As a result fuel was leaking via the push rods etc into the sump. We found this by pressurising the spill rail with a footpump which resulted in bubbles through the cracks.

 

If the rail is external the above will be no help at all.

 

Good luck

 

 

Frank

[WotEver]

I don't know the engine but where are the spill rails? Are they internal (under the the rocker box cover)? If so a friend had an identical problem on a larger Ford engine of similar vintage. His problem turned out to be cracked brazing where the rail was attached to the individual injector banjos.As a result fuel was leaking via the push rods etc into the sump. We found this by pressurising the spill rail with a footpump which resulted in bubbles through the cracks.

 

If the rail is external the above will be no help at all.

 

Good luck

 

 

Frank

Good thought. The engine in question is, I believe, a Kent - but I can't find any online manuals for it. Hopefully the OP will know.

 

Tony

[saxon]

Good thought. The engine in question is, I believe, a Kent - but I can't find any online manuals for it. Hopefully the OP will know.

 

Tony

Now I've totally lost the plot. A Kent..where'd that come from? My engine is a Watermota Seapanther (Ford) 1977 vintage. And spill rails Frank have lost me...There is a return from the injectors to the tank in the form of a thin external pipe but there are no leaks anywhere on the outside of the engine.

[RobinJ]

Now I've totally lost the plot. A Kent..where'd that come from? My engine is a Watermota Seapanther (Ford) 1977 vintage. And spill rails Frank have lost me...There is a return from the injectors to the tank in the form of a thin external pipe but there are no leaks anywhere on the outside of the engine.

I believe the Seapanther was based on the old Ford Kent 'block' and converted to diesel with a different 'head', the petrol versions were similarly 'borrowed' from the Anglia and Escort!

[WotEver]

I believe the Seapanther was based on the old Ford Kent 'block' and converted to diesel with a different 'head', the petrol versions were similarly 'borrowed' from the Anglia and Escort!

Spot on. All Cortinas were powered by Kent blocks in one form or another.

 

Tony

 

And spill rails Frank have lost me...There is a return from the injectors to the tank in the form of a thin external pipe...

Known in some circles as a Spill Rail

 

If they're external then it ain't that.

 

Tony

[saxon]

I believe the Seapanther was based on the old Ford Kent 'block' and converted to diesel with a different 'head', the petrol versions were similarly 'borrowed' from the Anglia and Escort!

 

Ah! I'm with you now Robin, thanks. I've heard different versions, some say it was Ford Cortina engine based but I don't know enough about engines to comment. There is a "Dealer" still. Ha! I requested a list of spares, an injector, drive belt, lift pump spares nearly 4 months in advance, prior to sailing from Falmouth. Two days before sailing...Sorry, haven't got those spares available..

[saxon]

Spot on. All Cortinas were powered by Kent blocks in one form or another.

 

Tony

 

 

Known in some circles as a Spill Rail

 

If they're external then it ain't that.

 

Tony

 

HeeHee! Never too old to learn, thanks Tony I now know what a spill rail is.. Saxon.