crane size

[pquinn]

c

 

can anyone advise on whether i will need an 80 ton or 100ton crane to lift a new fully fitted 57 by 10 boat.....

[stuart]

The builder should be able to tell you an approximate weight and the crane company should supply a suitable crane for the purpose - I'm sure you dont really need to know yourself!!

[pquinn]

The builder should be able to tell you an approximate weight and the crane company should supply a suitable crane for the purpose - I'm sure you dont really need to know yourself!!

i wouldnt bet on that ,stuart

[charles123]

c

 

can anyone advise on whether i will need an 80 ton or 100ton crane to lift a new fully fitted 57 by 10 boat.....

 

A standard boat should weigh about 15 to 17 tons for this size, if its deep draft like mine it needs more ballast so its 19 tons but yours is wide beam so I dont know. I cant help regarding weight of crane but I can give you a phone number of a very reasonable crane operate (Skeet cranes )Worsley who could help if its that part of the world.

John Skeet 07860208914

Watch what you are being charged for a crane they can vary a lot but your builder will have his own arrangement at his end for a good price, its at the other end that they leave you to arrange and prices will vary between £150 to £1000 (NB not wide beam) in my experience

 

Charles

[ChrisPy]

In order to determine the crane size you should arrange for the crane company to prepare a lifting plan before they quote. A good crane hire company may do it for 'free', i.e. the cost will be included in their charges when they get the job. If they don't do the plan themselves they may refuse to do the lift when they find a problem.

 

The crane size depends on both the weight and the layout of the site.

 

 

PS: my 57x10 widebeam was lifted by a 30 tonne crane. But that was a proper travelling marina boat lift crane.

Edited January 5, 2006 by chris polley

[tony collins]

c

 

can anyone advise on whether i will need an 80 ton or 100ton crane to lift a new fully fitted 57 by 10 boat.....

 

 

 

As Chris Polley says, It depends on the layout of the site. At our basin, we use a 70t crane even to lift regular fibreglass cruisers. This is simply because we cannot get the crane close to the water. So even with a small load, if the reach is a good distance, a more powerful crane will be required. If you are transporting the boat, you may need a bigger crane at one end of the journey than at the other. Incidentally, the first crane driver will be able to tell you the precise weight of the boat.

 

Consult the experts.

 

 

Regards

 

Tony.

[DHutch]

Yeah, when the L&L breached at bursco there was a crane lifting people out of the rufford, branch, but even tho it was a somthink like a 80t crane, they wouldnt lift us (22ton) becuase they didnt want to get that close to the edge of bank, so what they could lift was much restricted.

 

Also, when i was at work experince at ineoschlor they had a 80ton'er to lift a motor that i could life perfectly well on my own, just becuase they need the reach over varous bits of the site.

- Rediculas, becuase i could have carry it there for them no-props, but heath and safey says you much always have one hand free when on the walkways.

- And there not allowed to use portable winches off the slide of the walk ways eather, even tho there was a subcontractor onsite at the time using one just where we needed it!!

 

 

Daniel

[pquinn]

thanks all,for your replys but the problem is that my builder says the boat will be lifted on to the truck using large fork lifts and he dosent seem to be able to give me an accurate weight.

[Gary Peacock]

It isn't just the lift it is the reach too. We always use a 100ton for big boats. If you try with a 70/80 and it's marginal the driver will not lift it but you will still get a bill for the crane an owner found this to his cost last year when he organised is own crane to save money, the crane couldn't even lift the boat off the wagon so he had to organise another one in a rush. He didn't pay the first crane company because he said it was their fault so they took him to court and he lost.

Edited January 6, 2006 by Gary Peacock

[Keeping Up]

thanks all,for your replys but the problem is that my builder says the boat will be lifted on to the truck using large fork lifts and he dosent seem to be able to give me an accurate weight.

I hope they are good and large. Keeping Up was manoevred and launched down a ramp with a lorry axle at one end and a fork lift truck at the other, like a giant wheelbarrow, and she managed to lift the rear wheels of the truck off the ground so the boat hit the ramp with a big cloud of dust. No damage was done but the fork-lift driver was a bit surprised.

[ChrisPy]

thanks all,for your replys but the problem is that my builder says the boat will be lifted on to the truck using large fork lifts and he dosent seem to be able to give me an accurate weight.

sorry, but I think your builder is a bit sad if he can't tell you the weight of the boat (an upper estimate) with a tolerance of less than 10%.

 

If the boat is fully fitted, as you say, how on earth did the builder know how much ballast to use? How do you know how high the boat will float? How does he do the stability calculations he needs before he can issue the RCD?

[charles123]

sorry, but I think your builder is a bit sad if he can't tell you the weight of the boat (an upper estimate) with a tolerance of less than 10%.

 

If the boat is fully fitted, as you say, how on earth did the builder know how much ballast to use? How do you know how high the boat will float? How does he do the stability calculations he needs before he can issue the RCD?

 

I agree with Chris but the boat builder not knowing is not really a surprise its symptomatic of the business. You could ask your builder to contact a couple of previous customers of similar boats and ask the weight. Assuming they were lifted off the trailer by crane at the customers end. The weight comes from a gauge in the crane drivers cab

 

Charles

[DHutch]

And bare minimum, when you get it lifted, get the driver to tell you the weight so you know for next time!.

 

 

Daniel

[redfastlad]

To legally carry out any lift you will need an appointed person who will write up a detailed plan listing all the crane dimensions and weights etc prepare a drawing of the crane position and the load etc,slingers names must be listed as well as a singnaller also the person in charge of the operation should be listed with a contact number also a first aider is advisable.So a method statement is prepared photos of the lift should be available the crane company will require all this or they can do it for you and this is known as a contract lift whereby the crane hire company take on all the legal planning and risk assesments etc.Whilst lots of builders use cheap cranes and boatyard cranes please be aware should anything go wrong not only will they be prosecuted you will be prosecuted as well, for instructing the work.My advise is to go to the reputabale crane hire company,s they will give free quotes ie minimum hourly rates travel times to the cannal or launch site,they will provide the correct slings for the boat lift leaving you to stand there taking all the pictures.

I know it will cost you but shop around and forget the cowboys it,s your investment so look after it. I have experiance of crane hire and accidents on sites involving workers and when the HSE get involved the police also attend so be warned there is no such thing as a" quick lift".One slight clause in the legislation is should a tracked machine ie a crawler crane be used the above rules do not apply but once again check on the insurance of the company carrying out the lift.

 

I hope they are good and large. Keeping Up was manoevred and launched down a ramp with a lorry axle at one end and a fork lift truck at the other, like a giant wheelbarrow, and she managed to lift the rear wheels of the truck off the ground so the boat hit the ramp with a big cloud of dust. No damage was done but the fork-lift driver was a bit surprised.

 

 

Sorry but in the eyes of the law you are all guilty of contraveneing the lifting regulations (see my reply further down)

 

I can recomend a company in the midlands who will handle your boat in a proffesional way Steve Foster crane hire on 01889 568163

[Keeping Up]

Sorry but in the eyes of the law you are all guilty of contraveneing the lifting regulations

You are making many false assumptions by saying this; and surely in the eyes of the law one is innocent until proven guilty?

[John Orentas]

You are making many false assumptions by saying this; and surely in the eyes of the law one is innocent until proven guilty?

 

 

 

Quote Red'.

 

"My advise is to go to the reputable crane hire company". And no doubt pay double the reasonable price, how often are we given this kind of advice.

 

Just because he does not have pages of 'official' documents and certifications does not mean he is no good at his job. We should be making a stand against this kind of intrusion.

[Paul Evans]

Just because he does not have pages of 'official' documents and certifications does not mean he is no good at his job.

Without doubt, you are right John but engaging somebody without documents and certificates could leave you wide open to both criminal and civil actions in the Courts if something went wrong. The law requires that crane lifts are properly planned and executed. If you arranged a lift, without checking that the people conducting it had planned it properly and knew what they were doing, and (in the most extreme circumstances) somebody was killed when your boat fell on them, you could find yourself on a manslaughter charge and at the end of a civil suit for damages. As I understand it, you could not point your finger at the crane driver or owners without being able to show that you had taken full care to ensure that both were qualified to do what you were engaging them to do. I doubt that your insurance company would be overly sympathetic either.

 

We should be making a stand against this kind of intrusion.

This is where we part company. For too long, individuals organising inherently risky activities have been able to absolve themselves from responsibility for "accidents" by saying it was all down to some other person. It is not good enough to say 'All I wanted was my boat lifted out of the water and put on a lorry, so I went out and found a crane driver who said he could do it for me." You need to be sure that the crane driver can do it and do it safely. The law - and that means WE as society - now says we have personal responsibility. I don't see that as an intrusion and, unless you want to revert to the days of unregulated child labour, unregulated machinery in factories and unregulated working hours, I don't believe that you do either.

 

There are, undoubtedly areas where we have allowed laws to be enacted that are intrusive (or give "Jobs Worths" the opportunity to intrude) but I don't see this as one of them. Let's make sure we draw the line in the sand at the right place.

[ChrisPy]

 

This is where we part company. For too long, individuals organising inherently risky activities have been able to absolve themselves from responsibility for "accidents" by saying it was all down to some other person. It is not good enough to say 'All I wanted was my boat lifted out of the water and put on a lorry, so I went out and found a crane driver who said he could do it for me." You need to be sure that the crane driver can do it and do it safely. The law - and that means WE as society - now says we have personal responsibility. I don't see that as an intrusion and, unless you want to revert to the days of unregulated child labour, unregulated machinery in factories and unregulated working hours, I don't believe that you do either.

 

There are, undoubtedly areas where we have allowed laws to be enacted that are intrusive (or give "Jobs Worths" the opportunity to intrude) but I don't see this as one of them. Let's make sure we draw the line in the sand at the right place.

 

I agree wholeheartedly.

 

We all have a 'duty of care' to our neighbour. Maybe some people have never had HSE induction training, and are not fully aware of what that implies, but that doesn't change the law.

 

As we say in the oil & gas industry :

 

no job is so urgent that we cannot take time to do it safely. SAFETY IS EVERYBODY'S BUSINESS.

[Gary Peacock]

There is another side to this when your boat is scattered around the crane in various pieces and hopefully you are lucky enough not to have flattened anyone.

 

You will file your insurance claim and if you can't prove you followed the correct procedure you can guess what your insurers are going to say can't you?

 

Is another £300 or so pounds expensive then?

[John Orentas]

Quote Gary. "There is another side to this when your boat is scattered around the crane in various pieces and hopefully you are lucky enough not to have flattened anyone".

 

And just when did this last happen to you. It is just this kind of silly apocryphal tale that gives rise to the excesses of the 'Nanny State' that we have now. A chap who owns and operates a mobile crane will know what he is doing and he has doubtless been doing it for a long time, if he has anything about him he will not need to employ some young chap to write up a 'Detailed lifting plan', it is probably one of the most tightly regulated occupations there is. If you employ him to lift your boat he will will take on the professional responsibility for doing the job.

 

For generations people have been carrying out what could be described as hazardous tasks from building mill chimneys to excavating coal from below the ground they have always had a duty of care they don't need an army of bureaucrats or hordes of commercially minded 'health and safety experts' who's only interest is in profiting from the labours of better people than themselves.

 

The irritating thing is that we seem hell bent on increasing this kind of involvement, why do we assume that some spotty young chap who has done no more in his life than attend a few seminars knows more about organising a craning operation that a man who has been doing it for 30 years.

Edited January 9, 2006 by John Orentas

[Guest]

Got to jump in here: A narrowboat was dropped in the canal (literally) about two or three years ago. It was actually shown on TV-went in bow first. No doubt they knew what they were doing, but yes it can happen. I was personally very nervous when our boat was craned in over the top of another (floating) narrowboat. I have it on video. I wonder where we would have stood if the slings had slipped like that one on telly?

Edited January 8, 2006 by Guest

[gaggle]

I agree wholeheartedly.

 

We all have a 'duty of care' to our neighbour. Maybe some people have never had HSE induction training, and are not fully aware of what that implies, but that doesn't change the law.

 

As we say in the oil & gas industry :

 

no job is so urgent that we cannot take time to do it safely. SAFETY IS EVERYBODY'S BUSINESS.

 

i watch the piper alpha on tv and thought thank god they were careful.someone could have been hurt!!!!!

 

when my boat was lifted to the water i had nothing to do with it except i went to watch it happen,i dont know the first thing about lifting boats and so i left it in the hands of them that do.

the first crane on site went away after the driver said he would not do it because of the reach to the water and a bigger crane arrived soon after.

the money spent on the boat would have been wasted if i had took it on myself to organise the lift and disaster befell the job.as far as i was concerned accidents can and will happen and if one was going to happen then i should not be involved.

i did not concern myself with the where and how it was being done and i did not have to ,i paid someone else to worry and take the risk and the loss if something happened.you dont just pay for the lifting.

Edited January 8, 2006 by gaggle

[DHutch]

Got to jump in here: A narrowboat was dropped in the canal (literally) about two or three years ago. It was actually shown on TV-went in bow first.

Yeah, not sure if thats the same one i saw.

 

It was on YBF (sad i know)

- Looking like a club that had got tegether and hired a crane and spent the winter in a field

- The boat, prolly about 45ft, was being lifted back in, and when it was at about 45degrees to th canal, the front slig sliped droping the boat in nose first into the canal.

- Didnt look good at all

 

 

Dainel

[ChrisPy]

i watch the piper alpha on tv and thought thank god they were careful.someone could have been hurt!!!!!

 

it's generally recognised in the industry that it was the Piper Aplha disaster that resulted in the step change in H&S culture.

[Denis R]

John, I'm tending to come down on your side on this one. I'd add that there's also a survival instinct at play here. Crane drivers are not going to set out deliberately to have an exciting day and tip their crane over or bash into something. I don't think it's unsafe to assume that an owner operator is going to make at least an attempt to protect his/her not inconsiderable investment in machinery and of course his/her own life. I'm minded to agree that a detailed lifting plan is not a guarantee of competent operation. I'm sure REME don't sit down and write one when they need to lift a main battle tank, but then again they've got a drilled-in discipline. I dunno, perhaps that's what a lifting plan is attempting to instil.

However, I've witnessed a Hiab truck tipping over when operated by a seemingly experienced operater who knew our procedures and had made many successfull lifts previously. A seemingly extended stabiliser turned out not to be correctly extended....