Stern Tube / Gearbox / Engine Maladies Part 4

[RLWP]

Hey! I need that shaft to sort out how the prop is going to fit onto it. Keyway sizes, spacers and other such stuff

 

Richard

 

“Life's just a merry-go-round. Come on up. You might get a brass ring.” Mae West

 

[paulcatchpole]

Hey! I need that shaft to sort out how the prop is going to fit onto it. Keyway sizes, spacers and other such stuff

 

Richard

 

“Life's just a merry-go-round. Come on up. You might get a brass ring.” Mae West

 

Don't worry Richard, as soon as it arrives, I shall spirit it off to you...

 

Good work on the Mae West...

 

PC

[RLWP]

<snip>

 

Good work on the Mae West...

 

PC

 

<pauses to consider all of the possible aspects of the innuendo in that statement>

 

Richard

 

<sigh>

[paulcatchpole]

<pauses to consider all of the possible aspects of the innuendo in that statement>

 

Richard

 

<sigh>

 

I could've said "Good work on the Mae West front" now couldn't I...

 

At least the bearings in question aren't as big as this one...

 

 

Bigger than anything I've ever seen...

 

And now you're going to tell me that you used to handle ones this size all the time...

 

It's a Frankie Howard Bermuda triangle...

 

Infamy, infamy, again.

 

PC

[WotEver]

The engine was still making good oil pressure, so I'm not convinced on the oil starvation front, unless someone managed to put them in and get the oil holes misaligned, is that even possible with 'tabbed' shells?

It is on a Rover 3.5, as I found out when I stripped the bottom end of one many years ago. The guy who'd fitted them wasn't wearing his glasses at the time and had just torqued the cap up tight without realising. Fortunately he hadn't done a lot of miles and the damage in that case was quite minimal.

 

Tony

[paulcatchpole]

It is on a Rover 3.5, as I found out when I stripped the bottom end of one many years ago. The guy who'd fitted them wasn't wearing his glasses at the time and had just torqued the cap up tight without realising. Fortunately he hadn't done a lot of miles and the damage in that case was quite minimal.

 

Tony

 

Hmm, so it is possible then, if you're hamfisted enough...

 

I'm in a few different minds at the moment...

 

It's a question as to how big you can get oversize shells for this and/or what the maxmum grind on the crank journal would be... I'm having a hard time believing that there's not a significant loss of material from the con rod and journal!

 

I've tried Casper's contact for a second hand replacement, but it appears they're opeating in boat time again, the chap's out , could be some time, why not ring back later.

 

In the mean time, the new shaft has arrived!

 

For a happy Richard:

 

 

Not too much wear, lots less than our old one:

 

 

Keyway on 1:12 for prop, looks same as the old one, no key with this one.

 

 

Plenty long enough!

 

 

PC

[WotEver]

It's a question as to how big you can get oversize shells for this and/or what the maxmum grind on the crank journal would be... I'm having a hard time believing that there's not a significant loss of material from the con rod and journal!

Do you not have access to a verier caliper just to give you an idea? Even a cheapo £5 plastic one would get you into the ball park and you'd have an idea if there's any point.

 

There's always metal deposition but you're into the fairy world of silly money there...

 

Tony

[RLWP]

Do you not have access to a verier caliper just to give you an idea? Even a cheapo £5 plastic one would get you into the ball park and you'd have an idea if there's any point.

 

There's always metal deposition but you're into the fairy world of silly money there...

 

Tony

 

He's not short of measuring equipment, although I only have micrometers up to 75mm

Richard

 

I think he's got one of the verynear adjustable spanners already

[paulcatchpole]

He's not short of measuring equipment, although I only have micrometers up to 75mm

Richard

 

I think he's got one of the verynear adjustable spanners already

 

I do have a vernier that'll measure it, but I was a bit sceptical of how useful a reading would be given the sort of resolution we're needing, from the 'peaks' of the rough surface? Perhaps better to at least run some emery cloth around it first? Dunno, might make it worse?

 

I've a 1" micrometer too, but that's not big enough for this purpose.

 

Mr Richard might let me borrow his big one if I asked nicely...

 

PC

[RLWP]

I do have a vernier that'll measure it, but I was a bit sceptical of how useful a reading would be given the sort of resolution we're needing, from the 'peaks' of the rough surface? Perhaps better to at least run some emery cloth around it first? Dunno, might make it worse?

 

I've a 1" micrometer too, but that's not big enough for this purpose.

 

Mr Richard might let me borrow his big one if I asked nicely...

 

PC

 

You are looking to see if the journal is down by 0.010", or 0.020", or 0.030". If it's down by 0.25" it's totally wrecked anyway. My guess it will be somewhere in that range as most of the "play" you are seeing is because the bearing shells are no longer present.

 

Richard

 

However, it is still going to be expensive to rebuild

 

Did the piston actually touch the head?

Edited May 24, 2010 by RLWP

[paulcatchpole]

You are looking to see if the journal is down by 0.010", or 0.020", or 0.030". If it's down by 0.25" it's totally wrecked anyway. My guess it will be somewhere in that range as most of the "play" you are seeing is because the bearing shells are no longer present.

 

Richard

 

Aye, that's sort of what I meant - the galling / spinning ridges could well be 20thou high - that's .5mm about ain't it?

 

It won't be down by 1/4", I agree, the missing shells are the 'big' play. I've no idea how much runtime this has on it, in this state, before us running it - too much guesswork I guess.

 

What's the wear rate of steel on steel with lube but huge play? My instinct says it's be disappearing fast, but maybe I'm being daft.

 

Does anyone have a measurement for original/minimum journal sizes? I could measure another of them, which don't seem too worn, but that's into guesswork again.

 

However, it is still going to be expensive to rebuild

 

Did the piston actually touch the head?

 

Things are always expensive, I'm learning. The quote I've got for crank grinding and bearings isn't too bad, but if it gets into metal spraying then we're in a world of expense I guess.

 

The piston has touched the valves on that cylinder, aye, bump clearance is only supposed to be 70-odd thou... Slight dings in the piston, but the valves still move - not had the springs off to see if they're bent, but I see they're less than a fiver each NOS on Ebay.

 

PC

[gazza]

Aye, that's sort of what I meant - the galling / spinning ridges could well be 20thou high - that's .5mm about ain't it?

 

It won't be down by 1/4", I agree, the missing shells are the 'big' play. I've no idea how much runtime this has on it, in this state, before us running it - too much guesswork I guess.

 

What's the wear rate of steel on steel with lube but huge play? My instinct says it's be disappearing fast, but maybe I'm being daft.

 

Does anyone have a measurement for original/minimum journal sizes? I could measure another of them, which don't seem too worn, but that's into guesswork again.

 

 

 

Things are always expensive, I'm learning. The quote I've got for crank grinding and bearings isn't too bad, but if it gets into metal spraying then we're in a world of expense I guess.

 

The piston has touched the valves on that cylinder, aye, bump clearance is only supposed to be 70-odd thou... Slight dings in the piston, but the valves still move - not had the springs off to see if they're bent, but I see they're less than a fiver each NOS on Ebay.

 

PC

 

paul.

 

leave the valves intact. lay head level with valves uppermost. pour some white spirit or diesel over the valves. if the fluid drains away quickly the valves are most likely bent. this of course assumes a reasonable valve seat/face, which yours may not have.

[RLWP]

paul.

 

leave the valves intact. lay head level with valves uppermost. pour some white spirit or diesel over the valves. if the fluid drains away quickly the valves are most likely bent. this of course assumes a reasonable valve seat/face, which yours may not have.

 

Another experienced necromancer!

 

That's a good test Gazza.

 

Richard

 

I'll bet the white spirit pours out of the ports

[gazza]

Another experienced necromancer!

 

That's a good test Gazza.

 

Richard

 

I'll bet the white spirit pours out of the ports

 

i have had a few old cars with snapped timing belts sent my way. when a full set of 8/16 valves really does make the difference between a rebuild or a trip to the scrap yard in the sky. that and it saves lapping all the valves. on old low powered engines i only ever bothered with the work that needed doing.

[paulcatchpole]

Another experienced necromancer!

 

That's a good test Gazza.

 

Richard

 

I'll bet the white spirit pours out of the ports

 

It is a good test, aye...

 

Although valves and even guides are easy to fix, in my mind, compared to the rest of the engine, so it's not something that's worrying me. Given that piston had a broken top ring, which I'm going to charitably chalk up to hitting the carbon ridge on the top of the bore after 'over extending' upwards by somewhat more than it should, there was a little smoke after it warmed up, exhaust-wise. Saying that, there wasn't much evidence of combustion gasses turning up with any force in the rocker covers, and they looked all about the same.

 

If you're interested, the exhaust port on the cylinder at the other end, is reduced to about 50% of its normal size from hard carbon soot. The middle one less so, and the b*ggered one not too bad.

 

The one with all the soot appears to have had a replacement injector as it's different to all the others.

 

PC

 

PS: Still no luck with the ghostly one's first lead, but he's working on another!

 

i have had a few old cars with snapped timing belts sent my way. when a full set of 8/16 valves really does make the difference between a rebuild or a trip to the scrap yard in the sky. that and it saves lapping all the valves. on old low powered engines i only ever bothered with the work that needed doing.

 

I've had a few of those too, particularly water pump seizures on 8v OHC cavalier engines. And one cam that snapped in half in the middle, weirdly.

 

PC

[RLWP]

I've had a few of those too, particularly water pump seizures on 8v OHC cavalier engines. And one cam that snapped in half in the middle, weirdly.

 

PC

 

Oh, so you have previous on wrecking engines then.

 

Richard

[gazza]

It is a good test, aye...

 

Although valves and even guides are easy to fix, in my mind, compared to the rest of the engine, so it's not something that's worrying me. Given that piston had a broken top ring, which I'm going to charitably chalk up to hitting the carbon ridge on the top of the bore after 'over extending' upwards by somewhat more than it should, there was a little smoke after it warmed up, exhaust-wise. Saying that, there wasn't much evidence of combustion gasses turning up with any force in the rocker covers, and they looked all about the same.

 

If you're interested, the exhaust port on the cylinder at the other end, is reduced to about 50% of its normal size from hard carbon soot. The middle one less so, and the b*ggered one not too bad.

 

The one with all the soot appears to have had a replacement injector as it's different to all the others.

 

PC

 

PS: Still no luck with the ghostly one's first lead, but he's working on another!

 

 

 

I've had a few of those too, particularly water pump seizures on 8v OHC cavalier engines. And one cam that snapped in half in the middle, weirdly.

PC

 

 

arghh!!! thankfully we will start to see the back of those horrid things over the next few years!!!

 

Oh, so you have previous on wrecking engines then.

 

Richard

 

 

ha ha! play nice

[paulcatchpole]

arghh!!! thankfully we will start to see the back of those horrid things over the next few years!!!

 

Awww, I like those engines, you can do a head gasket in a couple of hours and swap the entire engine on a saturday morn. Particularly the X20SE found in 88-91 SRis. But hey, each to their own...

 

ha ha! play nice

 

That's Richard when he's being nice! You should see him when he's angry...

 

PC

[paulcatchpole]

Brief update...

 

I've failed to speak to one boatyard who're rumoured to be selling ex-fleet SR3s - the right person is never in, or doesn't answer the workshop phone, and hasn't so far managed to ring me back...

 

A second restorer of Listers has one, but at a price which made our earlier completely-refurbished exchange-unit price seem cheap, and I had to be sitting down for the former. That's not to impugn the quality of the restorer's engine, I'm sure it's excellent, but we just can't afford something that's approaching the cost we bought the whole boat for.

 

Anyhoo, still keeping an eye on other options for a drop in replacement, but it may yet come to rebuilding the one we've got.

 

Oh, and Mr Richard is to receive the new shaft in a day or two, which is good!

 

PC

[paulcatchpole]

Another update...

 

It seems that we've won another engine courtesy of Ebay...

 

 

An ST2 this time, with LM100 on it, so we'll be looking to swap our now-working LH150 onto it.

 

How easy is that going to be, do you reckon?

 

Hopefully we'll be able to pick this up before or at the weekend and get swapping them over!

 

Should mean that we've an LM100 for sale soon too, if it works like the seller says!

 

Happy now we've got an engine!

 

Oh, and I delivered the new shaft to Mr Richard today too, he looked quite happy...

 

PC

[RLWP]

Another update...

 

It seems that we've won another engine courtesy of Ebay...

 

 

An ST2 this time, with LM100 on it, so we'll be looking to swap our now-working LH150 onto it.

 

How easy is that going to be, do you reckon?

 

Hopefully we'll be able to pick this up before or at the weekend and get swapping them over!

 

Should mean that we've an LM100 for sale soon too, if it works like the seller says!

 

Happy now we've got an engine!

 

Oh, and I delivered the new shaft to Mr Richard today too, he looked quite happy...

 

PC

 

Did you win the prop as well?

 

What coupling is on the end of the gearbox?

 

Richard

Edited May 26, 2010 by RLWP

[paulcatchpole]

Did you win the prop as well?

 

What coupling is on the end of the gearbox?

 

Richard

 

Yup, it comes with the prop, so now we've got two. But not another shaft.

 

No idea on the coupling, or whether the engine mounts are by default rigid - I'd assume they are.

 

Too tricky to see in the piccy.

 

PC

 

Edited to add, is it possible that that will turn out to be a 4-bolt coupling? Or are all LM100s with reduction using the later 6-bolt type?

Edited May 26, 2010 by paulcatchpole

[RLWP]

Yup, it comes with the prop, so now we've got two. But not another shaft.

 

No idea on the coupling, or whether the engine mounts are by default rigid - I'd assume they are.

 

Too tricky to see in the piccy.

 

PC

 

Edited to add, is it possible that that will turn out to be a 4-bolt coupling? Or are all LM100s with reduction using the later 6-bolt type?

 

Looks like a flexible coupling to me, plus a flexible engine mount.

 

Richard

[paulcatchpole]

Looks like a flexible coupling to me, plus a flexible engine mount.

 

Richard

 

I'd have to agree, looking closer.

 

The coupling looks similar to the one we saw posted from another member's girlfriend's boat, a while back?

 

I've blown the image up:

 

 

What do you think then? Mount it solidly, use the/an old coupling? Use this coupling and mount it on rubbery mounts, bearing in mind it may or may not come with all four! Shall I obtain four more, and which ones?

 

So many questions!

 

PC

 

Edited to add, this is the section on marine mounting from the manual.

 

Credit to Marine Power Services for the manual, sent to me by a member (and employee?) on here...

 

 

PC

Edited May 26, 2010 by paulcatchpole

[paulcatchpole]

I've asked whether the mounts are okay, and some other details.

 

In the mean time, I've seen the (boaty ludicrous) price of engine mounts.

 

What about these:

 

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Land-Rover-Range-Rov...=item3ef686c64b

 

ST2 weight is much lighter than the SR3 at 170kg according to the datasheet.

 

PC