GAS BOTTLE FREEZE

[gaggle]

my gas seems to be coming through the system without any regular pressure,for instance if the heating is on and i light a ring on the cooker the flame is low on the cooker.

if the heater is off the flame on the cooker ring is at normal level but will go back down if i turn another gas appliance on.

the supply pipe is i think 8mm, so is the pipe of sufficient bore to supply the appliances or could the lack of pressure be the gas liquid being at a very reduced tempeture?"freezing.

i am waiting for the builder to give me some advice but any hints anyone can give please.

[AJLintern]

Is it Butane or Propane...

[John Orentas]

Bit of each of those I think but 10mm is usually regarded as usual, in the early days of the safety standards I seem to remember 12mm was 'the minimum'. I think you will have to re-pipe eventually.

[gaggle]

i have changed from a blue bottle to an orange(i think) and i summised that the different colours were different gases.

i was told that one gas would freeze easeir than another,i will have to check what gases are in the bottles when i go back to the boat later.

[AJLintern]

Butane (blue bottle) is only a gas above about 0 degrees C. Propane (orange bottle) has a boiling point of -42 degrees C, so that's what you use in winter

[gaggle]

excellent aj,that is what i needed to know.

 

i did not have the problem until the tempature dropped down the past couple of weeks.cheers.

 

i will post what happened when i come back.

[DHutch]

if you using propaine, unless you drawing a serouse lot of gas off the cylinders i can see you having problem, but then again, if you've got the heating on a lot...?

 

There is a steam lanuch that burns propaine, and they have to keep them in a wet locker, with water flowing though to keep the bottels warm.

- But they where using the bottels at the rate of one every 6/8hours.

 

 

Daniel

[John Orentas]

excellent aj,that is what i needed to know.

 

i did not have the problem until the tempature dropped down the past couple of weeks.cheers.

 

i will post what happened when i come back.

 

 

Red..........Propane

Blue ........Butane

 

Butane has a higher boiling point so the pressure and therefore flow drops considerably below zero deg C. Propane will keep going at much lower temperatures.

Edited November 28, 2005 by John Orentas

[Paul Evans]

But just to be a complete pessimist (and reconfirm the view that B-O-A-T stands for....), LPG can and does react with the neoprene linings of the gas "pigtails" and produces a rather nasty gunk that collects in the pipe work and, eventually, blocks it up. I speak from experience. With any luck, a spell of warmer weather or a change of gas type will cure the problem for you but, if it doesn't, be prepared to open your wallet.

[Big COL]

Bit of each of those I think but 10mm is usually regarded as usual, in the early days of the safety standards I seem to remember 12mm was 'the minimum'. I think you will have to re-pipe eventually.

 

John

 

In old money 3/8'' pipe if no heating involved (rings and cooker only) 1/2'' pipe if heating and cooking combined. This is how I understand the pipe sizes to work, things may have changed, but I would think that 8mm is undersized for combined heating and cooking. Its not pressure that is needed so much it's volume. Like you I would think it needs upgrading

[alan_fincher]

Red..........Propane

Blue ........Butane

 

Just to be clear, those are the normal colours, and certainly the ones Calor Gas have used for many years.

 

But it is still possible to find alternate suppliers who's cylinders differ from this. For example, although FloGas use this convention on some cylinders, they also sell Butane is an 'ochre' coloured cylinder and Propane in a green, (the latter particularly confusing to those of us who remember Green Calor Gas Butane cylinders). I'm not quite sure why so many variants - it seems to be same cylinder size, but with different valve types ? I'm sure someone will explain!

 

I sort of got the impression that Propane was now more or less universal on narrowboats, and I assumed this was because people got fed up with the issues of Butane ceasing to flow at round about (water) freezing point.

 

One other thing I have experienced many years ago, spending a rather miserable and cold Christmas on an ill equipped boat, was that the regulators sometimes fail. After all sorts of problems with the Xmas dinner not being cooked after some 5 hours, I swapped the regulator with a spare, at which point normal service was resumed.

[gaggle]

But just to be a complete pessimist (and reconfirm the view that B-O-A-T stands for....), LPG can and does react with the neoprene linings of the gas "pigtails" and produces a rather nasty gunk that collects in the pipe work and, eventually, blocks it up. I speak from experience. With any luck, a spell of warmer weather or a change of gas type will cure the problem for you but, if it doesn't, be prepared to open your wallet.

it a new boat paul, i have raised the pipe sizes with the builder.

[Guest]

But just to be a complete pessimist (and reconfirm the view that B-O-A-T stands for....), LPG can and does react with the neoprene linings of the gas "pigtails" and produces a rather nasty gunk that collects in the pipe work and, eventually, blocks it up. I speak from experience. With any luck, a spell of warmer weather or a change of gas type will cure the problem for you but, if it doesn't, be prepared to open your wallet.

 

Paul

I don't doubt your word for one minute, but I am surprised by this as I once worked for a firm that hired out various forms of heating which was without exception propane fired. In all the years we never had one incident of the blockages you describe! Does it block the regulator? Does it only occur in colder weather? We used to sometimes have to pigtail two or more bottles together in severe weather-even propane will freeze if you draw a lot of gas from the bottle quickly. I suspect it may be confined to a particular make or type of pipe, and would be very interested if you or anyone else had info on this subject.

Regards Catweasel

[DHutch]

I once worked for a firm that hired out various forms of heating which was without exception propane fired.

- We used to sometimes have to pigtail two or more bottles together in severe weather-even propane will freeze if you draw a lot of gas from the bottle quickly.

The best ive seen was somone powering large 'space heater' in very cold weather off a single 47kg cylinder, he had the cylinder half infront of the heater to keep it warm!

[Paul Evans]

Paul

I don't doubt your word for one minute, but I am surprised by this as I once worked for a firm that hired out various forms of heating which was without exception propane fired. In all the years we never had one incident of the blockages you describe! Does it block the regulator? Does it only occur in colder weather? We used to sometimes have to pigtail two or more bottles together in severe weather-even propane will freeze if you draw a lot of gas from the bottle quickly. I suspect it may be confined to a particular make or type of pipe, and would be very interested if you or anyone else had info on this subject.

Regards Catweasel

Earlier this year, we went to the boat and found no gas despite the fact that I knew both bottles were full. The best advice I got at the time was the regulator had gone so I replaced it and - hey presto - gas for a week. Next time we went - no gas. At this point the diagnosis from the resident gas engineer was gunk in the pipe. We tested the regulator just to make sure. I was told that this problem had occurred before - including on one of the marina's hire boats. I'm not say it happens frequently but it's possible...... Sorry, I can't tell you what make the "pigtail" was - it was orange in colour and had passed BSC and other tests in the past but they both went when the problem was sorted out and replaced with new black ones.

[Guest]

Earlier this year, we went to the boat and found no gas despite the fact that I knew both bottles were full. The best advice I got at the time was the regulator had gone so I replaced it and - hey presto - gas for a week. Next time we went - no gas. At this point the diagnosis from the resident gas engineer was gunk in the pipe. We tested the regulator just to make sure. I was told that this problem had occurred before - including on one of the marina's hire boats. I'm not say it happens frequently but it's possible...... Sorry, I can't tell you what make the "pigtail" was - it was orange in colour and had passed BSC and other tests in the past but they both went when the problem was sorted out and replaced with new black ones.

 

Thanks for that explanation-I will remember that one!

[John Orentas]

Just a reminder about different 'makers' bottles. If you are anything other than a static residential don't be tempted by 'Acme gas' at very reduced prices. When you are 50 miles from home with an empty gas bottle, bear in mind that the marina you have stopped at will not exchange your Acme bottle for a Calor one.

 

So buy nothing but Calor Gas.

[bottle]

It does not matter what colour the bottle is, just read the writing on the side, it will state type of gas and how much you are getting.

[ChrisPy]

It does not matter what colour the bottle is, just read the writing on the side, it will state type of gas and how much you are getting.

how does that apply to you, bottle ? how much gas do you produce?

[bottle]

how does that apply to you, bottle ? how much gas do you produce?

 

It depends on the fuel that has been stored,

 

 

 

P.s. knew someone would have a pop

[Paul Evans]

Is that a fizzy pop?

[Paul Chapman]

if you using propaine, unless you drawing a serouse lot of gas off the cylinders i can see you having problem, but then again, if you've got the heating on a lot...?

 

There is a steam lanuch that burns propaine, and they have to keep them in a wet locker, with water flowing though to keep the bottels warm.

- But they where using the bottels at the rate of one every 6/8hours.

Daniel

 

Hello.

This is interesting for me as I wish to power my soon to be built nattow boat with propane. I invisage a number of 19Kilo cyliders in the bow. What interests me in your comment here Daniel is the 'wet locker'. are the cylinders imersed and if so how much. I am suprised that it is acceptable to have the cylinders actualy in the water. If it is acceptable it might be of advantage to me and I will rethink the storage problem.

[DHutch]

Ive never seen the boat, and it was a while since i read about it, so its little vague (i dont have all my sba magazines with me), but as i recall there where 3/4 bottles a locker at the back of the boat covered to about half way up.

- I think it was origally it was designed to be a normal dry locker and converted after the first outing, when the gas refused to evaporate after the first 20mins steaming!

 

This is not a narrowboat, but a small (16ft?) open launch, so im not eactly sure what the regs are.

- I know for fact that non of the coal fired boats have to be have a BSS, not sure if it needed a cert with it been gas, but they dont spend much time on the canal anyway, more often on windmere or some other river/lake.

 

 

Daniel

[dor]

This is interesting for me as I wish to power my soon to be built nattow boat with propane.

 

Do I infer from this correctly that you want to drive the engine with propane?

 

If so, have you costed it out? Seems a rather expensive way to me!

 

See BSS info on gas lockers. The main thing is that they must have vents to the outside at the lowest point, although I think they can go below the water line if they are filled to the water line at the lowest point. But you must have that vent, and allow for the boat to rise and fall in the water.

[DHutch]

Do I infer from this correctly that you want to drive the engine with propane?

- If so, have you costed it out? Seems a rather expensive way to me!

I dunno, its about £1 a kilo (litre), like diesal will be.

- But im still curouse as to why you would want to.

- What sort of engine are you planning to power with gas?

 

For reference,

13kg is £16.40 (1.26 £/kg)

19kg is £23.50 (1.24 £/kg)

47kg is £53.05 (1.13 £/kg)

 

 

Daniel