Improving the basics for new boaters.

[magpie patrick]

You should have refused their passport..................

 

oh sorry they dont need one do they

 

That's a good point actually, because M and M's passport would still be valid with a two year break, possibly making The behaviour Allan observed even worse.

[carlt]

I still don't understand how a boatyard, issuing a "passport", is any guarantee that the yard has provided the correct level of training.

 

I think it is the Hire company that has to reach a standard, not the holidaymaker.

 

I imagine that if the driving instructor was responsibe for issuing pass certificates, the fail rate would drop dramatically.

 

A correctly trained newbie should be awarded a boat, for the duration of their holiday, at the end of their lesson. Proof that they have received adequate instruction.

Edited April 15, 2010 by carlt

[mayalld]

Tosh, you dont get any better with age David, more like a cheap wine just get stale.

 

Have you ever been on holiday and thought just for this one week i will enjoy myself?

 

A first time hirer regardless of how good or long the handover was, is going to get things wrong or take longer to carry out tasks. This is a fact. A standard syllabus isnt going to suddenly give them a weeks worth of experience. Those that are moaning at the hirers are just going to have to accept that you cant just jump behind the wheel/tiller of a boat and become and instant expert.

 

I always do enjoy myself.

 

Have you ever thought that just for once, you might discuss the content, instead of going for the jugular?

 

Of course no handover will turn a novice into an expert, and nobody would expect it to.

 

The point remains, however, that with a good handover, the novice hirer has a fighting chance of doing some things right. With a bad handover, he or she stands no chance.

[carlt]

The point remains, however, that with a good handover, the novice hirer has a fighting chance of doing some things right. With a bad handover, he or she stands no chance.

The question still remains, though, is it the student or instructor that needs to attain a standard.

[Naughty Cal]

The question still remains, though, is it the student or instructor that needs to attain a standard.

 

In Daves world there would be no hire boaters as they would all have failed to obtain their passport. Then he could focus his attention on another group of waterways users.

 

In everyone elses it is common sense that hirers are not the perfect boaters, in fact show me who is. Everybody regardless of the amount of training or tuition they recieve makes mistakes. Such is life. Lets just lighten up on the hire companies. They can not and never have guaranteed the behaviour of their customers will be to everybodies taste.

[mayalld]

In Daves world there would be no hire boaters as they would all have failed to obtain their passport. Then he could focus his attention on another group of waterways users.

 

Do take a step back from spitting venom, and you might see that I don't advocate a passport system.

 

I do advocate improvements in the standards of handover by some hire companies.

[Naughty Cal]

Do take a step back from spitting venom, and you might see that I don't advocate a passport system.

 

I do advocate improvements in the standards of handover by some hire companies.

 

How?

[mayalld]

The question still remains, though, is it the student or instructor that needs to attain a standard.

 

The latter.

 

It would be unworkable to try to test the holidaymaker, but it would not be unworkable to require that the training is up to scratch.

 

 

How?

 

Providing an adequate handover is a condition of holding a hire operators licence. BW would assess handover practices to ensure that they are up to scratch.

[Naughty Cal]

Providing an adequate handover is a condition of holding a hire operators licence. BW would assess handover practices to ensure that they are up to scratch.

 

And how do they ensure that each and every handover is up to scratch not just the one BW witness?

[mayalld]

And how do they ensure that each and every handover is up to scratch not just the one BW witness?

 

By conducting spot checks, to ensure continuing compliance.

[Naughty Cal]

By conducting spot checks, to ensure continuing compliance.

 

And who pays for that?

 

Your new system is in reality no better than what already happens. There is no one size fits all answer to handovers.

[Josher]

I was at a hire base shop on the Llangollen last week when I overheard an elderly American gentleman checking in for his weeks cruise. "Have you had experience of locks?" The reply "None whatsoever". The response "In that case we need you to watch a five minute video". Next question "Please let me have a mobile phone number" - the response "we have not got one, isn't there one on the boat?" Not sure how that was resolved! Next question "Where are you heading for" Answer "Llangollen", reply "You should manage that ok in a week". My first thought was well that is correct having been there a day and a half earlier (we do cruise for long hours though) but my second thought was that the last bit of the canal is quite challenging to say the least - not just the strong current against you but the narrows with passing places and more especially the half kilometer without! - pleased it was not my first trip. Shouldn't routes be graded - like walks in the hills?

Edited April 15, 2010 by Josher

[carlt]

And who pays for that?

 

Your new system is in reality no better than what already happens. There is no one size fits all answer to handovers.

Other industries and organisations have to reach certain standards of training, why shouldn't holiday hire firms.

 

As the organisation responsible for rnforcement why shoudn't BW be given the task of policing this one.

 

No system is perfect but I'd rather risk a takeaway displaying its hygene training certificates than one that doesn't.

[mayalld]

And who pays for that?

 

Your new system is in reality no better than what already happens. There is no one size fits all answer to handovers.

 

And I'm not suggesting that there should be.

 

I am suggesting that there are some hire firms who don't do handovers adequately, and that there should be an inspection regime to ensure that they put their house in order.

 

To facilitate this, a core sylabus for what must be covered should be designed, to which firms can add as needed, and a skeleton presentation format made available to enable hire companies to deliver a good handover at minimal cost.

[Mick and Maggie]

Mick and Maggie, whichever of you it is... You're the one that started a thread asking if it was always like this, well it seems you can give as good as you get. In response to your other thread we don't pick on newbies per se, but we do tend to have major irritation (on both sides) with people who stick lear like their view no matter what arguments against it are presented.

 

Yes, I asked the question, and if memory serves me right I also said that I enjoy robust banter and had a dislike for "political correctness".

 

I will digress back to this topic. Is discussion is to be discouraged on here then, if it does not fit in with your views. I would welcome the empirical evidence that giving an acceptable level of handover instruction will see the end of the canal boat industry.

 

If as you say - ".... if a company takes a booking through one of the big agencies, the[y] see little more than half the booking fee." Then that suggest that the mark-up on non agency top-sliced hire fees must be quite significant.

 

My experience - I have a friend who has years of experience of boat ownership. I have crewed with him and happily learned quite a lot. I have hired a boat myself a few times. And just purchased a boat of my own.

 

Going back to handovers, I have experienced a few. I do listen, in particular to how the hirer wants me to look after their boat. - check the oil - give the greaser a turn, warning lights, all the usual stuff. I have yet to have a handover that I felt was worthwhile. The last one - I could not get away quick enough because the guy was wanting to bad mouth the hire company.

[Naughty Cal]

Yes, I asked the question, and if memory serves me right I also said that I enjoy robust banter and had a dislike for "political correctness".

 

I will digress back to this topic. Is discussion is to be discouraged on here then, if it does not fit in with your views. I would welcome the empirical evidence that giving an acceptable level of handover instruction will see the end of the canal boat industry.

 

If as you say - ".... if a company takes a booking through one of the big agencies, the[y] see little more than half the booking fee." Then that suggest that the mark-up on non agency top-sliced hire fees must be quite significant.

 

My experience - I have a friend who has years of experience of boat ownership. I have crewed with him and happily learned quite a lot. I have hired a boat myself a few times. And just purchased a boat of my own.

 

Going back to handovers, I have experienced a few. I do listen, in particular to how the hirer wants me to look after their boat. - check the oil - give the greaser a turn, warning lights, all the usual stuff. I have yet to have a handover that I felt was worthwhile. The last one - I could not get away quick enough because the guy was wanting to bad mouth the hire company.

 

Exactly!!!

 

Well done we got there in the end

[mayalld]

Exactly!!!

 

Well done we got there in the end

 

Yes, we got to a point where with a poor handover the hirer wanted to escape.

 

If the handover was poor, there was no point being there. If the handover had been better, the hirer might have been more engaged, and might have learned something.

[Iain_S]

And how do they ensure that each and every handover is up to scratch not just the one BW witness?

 

The same way driving licence testers ensure that each and every time the testee gets into a car

 

Iain

[Allan(nb Albert)]

The same way driving licence testers ensure that each and every time the testee gets into a car

 

Iain

 

May I suggest that contributors to this thread familiarise themselves with the BMF National Guide to Hire Boat Handover including Audit pack and the Draft MCA Hire boat code rather than indulge in theoretical arguments.

 

BMF Handover Guide

 

MCA Draft Hire Boat Code

 

There may be a later revision of the MCA code but it is not up on the web.

 

Most hire companies use handover proceedures based on the BMF guide but this is optional

 

The MCA code (part based on the BMF guide) is also optional but will be adopted by navigation authorities who will then have responsibility for ensuring that hire companies comply.

 

However, as I said earlier it is dragging on!

Edited April 15, 2010 by Allan(nb Albert)

[Mick and Maggie]

A quote from the BMF handover guide.

 

"What all this means for you, the operator, is that you are responsible for taking reasonable steps to ensure that the right information, briefing and training is provided to the hirer at the right time. You must maintain an audit trail, some sort of log, to prove that you have done what is required. ."

 

The audit trail log, could that be a boater's Passport. Maybe it should/should be provided free after all.

[Dominic M]

Hmm.

 

Whilst I woukld agree that there certainly are thoe who think that when they bought the boat, they bought the canal system with it, I think that you go to far in defending poor practice from Hire boat operators.

 

Yes, they are trying to make a living, but that does not give them carte blanche to cause obstructions.

 

I know that I'm not the only one to witness the company at Wrenbury completely fouling up the Llangollen for an hour, causing long queues both ways whilst they block the canal.

 

Or perhaps you would like to defend the staff of Anglo-Welsh on the S-on-A, who moored their fleet so that it was impossible to get onto the aqueduct, and went for lunch?

I'm not defending them. I'm not criticising them either. I wasn't there. At my location a channel is left during changeover which is more than sufficient, a lot more, for two boats to get through and pass. But some boaters, rather like inexperienced car drivers, don't seem able to judge the width of their boats, and curse and swear because anything is moored there at all. I've revived a waterway base that was dying, and they (only a very small "they" I hasten to add) seem to resent the activity that has been renewed at a wharf that was always a wharf ever since the Grand Junction Canal was built. And would often have had a lot of boats there during its history. We may not be using the wharf in the manner originally intended, but it is is once again a vibrant area of working waterway activity. Hooray. Unless you want a crumbling decaying stagnant museum as a waterway.

Edited April 15, 2010 by Dominic M

[Naughty Cal]

Yes, we got to a point where with a poor handover the hirer wanted to escape.

 

If the handover was poor, there was no point being there. If the handover had been better, the hirer might have been more engaged, and might have learned something.

 

Even a thorough handover isnt worth much if the hirer couldnt give a damn. The hirer wants to pick up the boat and go on holiday not spend two hours listening to someone waffle on about stuff they will learn along the way. 20 minutes i believe is the limit of the attention span.

[Guest]

20 minutes i believe is the limit of the attention span.

Think I made the same point in post no. 36.

 

This might sound like an argument to extend the handover time but it's not - I can't quote the study but I understand the average persons learning/attention span is 20 mins. after that, it's a lost cause trying to squeeze anything else in.

Edited April 15, 2010 by MJG

[mayalld]

Even a thorough handover isnt worth much if the hirer couldnt give a damn. The hirer wants to pick up the boat and go on holiday not spend two hours listening to someone waffle on about stuff they will learn along the way. 20 minutes i believe is the limit of the attention span.

 

Of course it isn't, and I never claimed that it was.

 

However, I would dispute any claim that ALL hirers fall into the "couldn't give a damn" category.

 

Let us assume that 50% of hirers do fall into this category.

 

That would mean that at bases that do a poor handover, 100% of hirers come out without a clue as to what to do. At bases with a good handover, half the hirers come out a little better equipped. It isn't perfect, but it is better than nothing.

[alan_fincher]

20 minutes i believe is the limit of the attention span.

Just taken as someone droning on, I can't disagree with you.

 

However a good hire base will give someone practical experience at the tiller and locks that will last a lot longer than that. This doesn't have to be a continuous "drilling" - when I did it, if they were doing fine, they were quietly told this, and allowed to get on with it without me rabbiting at them, non-stop. A good instructor will only intervene when there's a new point to make, or something could have been better handled.

 

It is fully possible for someone to come away from training with more than 20 minutes of imparted knowledge, I believe. (Company I once worked for took newcomers through a minimum of 3 miles of winding canals, and 4 locks, of which three are a flight).

 

If, on the other hand, you are the Canaltime hirer we met who said he had missed the instructional video, (all they got ), because he was sent to park his car when it was being shown, then I'd argue you are not given anything like as good a start at things.

 

Some hire bases could clean their act up massively - this has nothing to do with the hirers, who wanted to learn, but were not given the opportunity to do so.

 

To me that point is proven by the number of hirers one meets that are still very keen to learn after they have been out some days - "If only I had been told that before!...." It's bo**ocks to suggest that such hirers "couldn't give a damn" - maybe a lot don't, but an awful lot more are very keen to do the right thing.

 

I guess it's possible that your experiences may be oriented to somewhere a bit more like the Broads ? I've never tried that, but from what I have heard, such "don't give a damn" behaviours are perhaps more prevalent there ?