Re: BUYER BEWARE

[Albion]

But is the answer to your question "Get the customer to lend them the start-up capital"?

I think it's called stage payments

 

Not if I'm the customer it isn't!

If you're not prepared to trust anyone, even with a sound contract, then you restrict your choice of builder to a very small pool. The larger companies that could truly fund a boat all the way to completion produce products that I wouldn't want to buy, by and large.

 

Although, thinking about it, you'd possibly have better security making a loan secured on the business than making up- front payments on a boat.

 

If I want to give away money I'll choose a deserving charity....

Pity, but if everyone took that attitude few small businesses could ever get a start in life because it is difficult to borrow commercially at rates that allow the business to get off the ground.

 

Roger

[mayalld]

If you're not prepared to trust anyone, even with a sound contract

 

Time and again, we hear a sound contract being touted as if it makes your money safe.

 

In truth, if the builder doesn't actually own what he is selling you, the contract is worthless.

[barge sara]

I think it's called stage payments

Stage payments are fine, but not to be confused with cash up front before any work is done.

 

If you're not prepared to trust anyone, even with a sound contract, then you restrict your choice of builder to a very small pool. The larger companies that could truly fund a boat all the way to completion produce products that I wouldn't want to buy, by and large.

I'm sure You're right, and my answer is to buy second hand, or in the case of Sara, 90 years old!

Given the current state of the industry, I probably just wouldn't commision a new build other than on a contract labour basis as my last post (the bit you didn't respond to!)

 

Pity, but if everyone took that attitude few small businesses could ever get a start in life because it is difficult to borrow commercially at rates that allow the business to get off the ground.

I disagree, very few new businesses have the opportunity to take cash up-front from their customers. Typically a small business gets its initial capital from a mortgage on the proprietors assets. Or relies on labour only for the first few contracts.

Edited December 5, 2009 by barge sara

[Albion]

Stage payments are fine, but not to be confused with cash up front before any work is done.

What would you call a significant deposit then?

 

 

I'm sure You're right, and my answer is to buy second hand, or in the case of Sara, 90 years old!

Given the current state of the industry, I probably just wouldn't commision a new build other than on a contract labour basis as my last post (the bit you didn't respond to!)

We've been round this loop before on the forum. If no-one buys new there will be a reducing secondhand stock with escalating prices. Also, it's not always possible to find a decent s/h boat that fit's your design requirements. I didn't reply to the point about contract labour only because there was no need to. If you can find a builder prepared to work under those terms then it isn't a bad idea, I just doubt you'll find many prepared to do it. Businesses make their profits on labour and materials. I suspect that you've never been a small self-employed businessman

 

 

I disagree, very few new businesses have the opportunity to take cash up-front from their customers. Typically a small business gets its initial capital from a mortgage on the proprietors assets. Or relies on labour only for the first few contracts.

It has always been difficult to raise capital from the bank without them having several pounds of flesh. Also, if you happen to be a new businessman who lives in a Council house and has no significant assets except the tools of his trade it would have been near impossible. Under the present financial constraints I would think it impossible, we all know the complaints from industry about the banks not lending........and that's to businessses that are established. Again, I believe that your naivety in these matters suggests that you've never been in the position of a small businessman. If that is the case then it is very easy to criticise.

[hydrophobia]

Hi, when my boatbuilder requested the removal of my thread I went to Granny Buttons for help. Andrew Denny has now written something and also put my video's up if you fancy a look. I was surprised to find out about Lockstock, does anyone know about him as I joined this forum too late for the Westwood & Tigeress saga.

 

Andrew mentioned cyber squatting because I have the same domain name but I DON'T! and we were careful not to.He is still reg as M.M.S we are MM.

 

Also I am not selling boats BUT if he would like the domain name we own I could sell it to him for £30,000!!!!!!!!! Now THAT'S cyber squatting.

Edited December 6, 2009 by hydrophobia

[barge sara]

What would you call a significant deposit then?

Just enough to demonstrate (and keep) the buyers commitment. 10% max.

 

 

Also, if you happen to be a new businessman who lives in a Council house and has no significant assets except the tools of his trade it would have been near impossible. Under the present financial constraints I would think it impossible, we all know the complaints from industry about the banks not lending........and that's to businessses that are established. Again, I believe that your naivety in these matters suggests that you've never been in the position of a small businessman.

So you advocate handing a large amount of money to a brand new small business, no track record and no assets.

And I'm the one that's naive???

[Albion]

Just enough to demonstrate (and keep) the buyers commitment. 10% max.

 

 

 

So you advocate handing a large amount of money to a brand new small business, no track record and no assets.

And I'm the one that's naive???

 

Two questions:

1. Have you ever bought a brand new boat from any boat-builder?

 

2. Can you confirm whether you have or have not any experience in running a small, sole proprietor business?

 

Roger

Edited December 7, 2009 by Albion

[NiceNarrowboat]

John, I'm curious as to why you need to go to extremes to make a point. Very few are advocating that anyone goes to a business which is brand new to the market and underwrites it at start up. However, I do know a few who have: although they are very much within a context. Of two I do, both parties have then become a tour de force for the company, a part of its PR and, as a result, have ensured that a talented boatbuilder got a foothold in the industry. Business is not static nor should anyone encourage it to be so.

 

For your information, and in case you've missed the point: Hydrophobia went with a boatbuilder who, on the face of it, was very well established, and had a long track record. Sadly, too late for them, they only found out about the other record after it had all gone wrong.

 

You are hell bent on demanding that the customer does not underwrite their own boatbuild. I did so, not once, or twice, but three times. I own a georgeous boat, but did have to go via the courthouse: a fact I've never shied away from telling people about - largely because I'd hate it to happen to anyone else. If the point is lost on you, I work in business, and with many businesses: I advocate 'buyer beware'. However, it still happened to me.

 

My story is not unlike Hydrophobia's, but only differs in that I continued to persue my dream of having a bespoke narrowboat. I've now got my happy ending. I don't need to worry about other people's narrowboat lives. But I do because I can.

 

The only difference was after being [temporarily] burnt was that I insured the boatbuild - and for extra protection, paid by credit card. As it turned out, it was unnecessary. However, what I learnt along the way is something I can educate people about. Plenty of people come to me very unhappy about their situation - but the last thing I would do is say 'well, I could have told you that for free'. It doesn't help: it just adds to their sense of unhappiness, frustration and anger. Why bother?

 

With regard to Hydrophobia: I've known their story for over a year, I can truly empathise with their feelings, and at the very least be very grateful to them for telling their story because it will prevent it happening to someone else. Good for them - if it saves another couple our despair, then I for one applaud their bravery: they really don't need to be mocked by the likes of you. There are several boats on the cut who have taken my advice freely, or at the very least, benefitted from my experience: who knows if they were overcautious, but all the same, I'm very glad that at least I got to see or read about their happy endings. I'm still approached by people who say 'oh, you're NiceNarrowboat' - that's my legacy. I am very lucky: I was young enough, with a sufficient career ahead of me that I was able to fight back against the 'company'; take the risk of court action; and if all failed, recover financially. Most of the people who enter the narrowboating world, are coming to the end of their careers.

 

So how are you helping them?

 

Most of the people who do contact me don't tell their story publically for many reasons. Some of those are because they'll encounter people like you who will just point out, with an undeniable sense of smugness, their higher level of, well what, knowledge? All you are doing is merely shutting the door after the cowboy has ridden the horse out. Again, why bother?

 

Your wisdom, such you wish to impart it is, in my view, nothing less than useless.

[Pirate]

Those were the good old Westwood days Carlt when one could have a really good arguement without getting moderated. I remember pirate resurfacing after a long time undercover and you two having a really good barny. During that period I defended a certain boat builder mainly on the basis of pirates boat costing £65k to refurbish when it didn't cost that much to build!!! How things change.

 

 

 

Still talking out of your rear end I see Mike? Don´t know where you fabricated these figures from? I really wish you would quote only facts or not bother, you lose all credability lieing.

 

The actual price paid was 78,000 and the quotes to repair her were well over 50 000 quid. If I remember at the time, you thought that them builders were the cowboys for quoting that price, even though they were the professionals, and there were over 10 quotes all close, and of course I have two surveys.

 

You were the builder in questions biggest defender at the time, what made you jump ship Mike?

 

Here´s some information you can brag about being the first to know,

 

I removed my Blogs not because I was afraid or intimidated, (I had lot´s of legal advice to keep it legal), the main reason for withdrawing them was because that I felt pilloried on here by this community that I wrongly thought, were on the side of narrow boaters.

 

There are forum members who make sure that the builder in question is aware of whats being said. You were one and there were others in the trade on here.

 

I came to the conclusion that they didn´t really want fore warnings of bad builders so I thought rather than help to keep other potential customers away from the builder, let them find out the hard way Like I did. I don´t have an appetite for fighting tw·$ts in my retirement.

 

I have met many other dissatisfied customers of the same builder on my travels, in fact I´ve not met a happy one yet, unless of course you are Mike?

 

I have many stories to tell should I feel the urge to re post my Blogs and I take my hat off to Hydrophobia, they are very brave people posting their views on this forum. I found some even more interesting sites regarding mortgages re mortgages and other bankruptcies that they might be interested in, however I don't reply to pm.s sorry.

 

I never had any ill feelings towards you, or anyone else on here for that matter Mike, but I felt I was pilloried and your remarks here (False Quotes above and scattered throughout the forum) remind me of why I don´t visit this forum anymore.

 

I can confirm that this web site is at the top, as I stumbled on it quite by accident, as these days I have no interest at all in Narrowboats, I had that all knocked out of me by my experiance.

 

I came on here today just to give some support to Hydrophobia and tell them I found their web blog and they have my sincere sympathy, for what it´s worth.

 

My Blogs were never posted on here by myself, I was in dispute long before another forum member found and posted them. I believed, by your comments towards me Mike, that you supported this pillorying.

 

I don´t ever come on this forum now, I´ve got no interest in boats anymore, and what a bunch of back stabbers some members on here turned out to be, I almost felt I wanted others to buy a boat from this guy and suffer.

.

 

I still have every single piece of paperwork about the problems I had, including both surveys, quotes, pictures and Lots of other interesting things I found out about him in my research that all makes interesting reading, also what others have said to me that I will only quote privately. I keep them all so that I have proof to back up everything I say when/if I make new Blogs.

 

It would be nice if you would acknowledged your miss placed loyalty towards the builder Mike however somehow I doubt you will.

 

All the very best Hydrophobia, I felt for you reading your Blog and wondered if you might be on here, so just popped in to give you some support.

 

It looks like I am angry, I´m not, just don´t like trouble causing quotes and lies from hipocrits

Edited August 17, 2010 by Pirate

[Guest wanted]

Deep breath...hold it.....and...relax

[Sunset Rising]

but I really need to target the NEWBIE'S

 

One Newbee adaquately targeted.

 

THANK YOU

 

regards

Graham

[Pirate]

Christ WHAT could HE say???? Mind you when I asked him about WESTWOOD he said Pi**te put a hose pipe into his own boat and thats why it was so wet??????????? So you never know eh?

 

Well good to see he hasn´t lost his ability to spin a good yarn lol, I´m not rich enough to be able to do that lol.

 

I suppose I paid to have all the new timbers replaced with older ones with black wet stains on them too, just so that I could spend even more money on lawyers and surveyors, just to crucify someone for absolutely no reason at all?

 

He´s making fools of every sucker that believes his drivel. Just Like we did.

 

Are you doubters out there getting a picture of this builder yet?

 

Be interesting to see what he would tell you if I gave you a list of owners I have spoken to that had boats built by him and the mega problems some of them have had.

 

Infact it would be interesting to see what he would tell you if I told you some of the other very very interesting things that I paid 5000 quid to find out about.

 

I find it odd I haven´t yet met an owner with anything positive to say (other than Mikevye that is) and I made it my business to find them.

Edited August 17, 2010 by Pirate

[Morat]

I've just put the link to the hydrophobia blog in my signature on another forum where I have over 5000 posts. That should help a bit with google

[Pirate]

Don´t worry, with things that I know,

 

I doubt this builder will see the light of day again, But who knows, I am usually told by superior forum members that I am wrong so nothing would suprise me.

[Pirate]

Deep breath...hold it.....and...relax

 

Love it,

Edited August 17, 2010 by Pirate

[Mick and Maggie]

Hi and thanks, we are listening to ALL your suggestions but we are having to go through a third party because we havn't got a clue, the only buttons I know are Cadburys!? Anyway just heard back from him and it doesn't look like we have any ftp access?

 

Prophetic.... http://www.grannybuttons.com/granny_button...ophobia.html#tp

 

M&M

[Mick and Maggie]

I spotted this on the front page of a certain website...

 

We are currently mourning the loss of Colin Tuffin- who tradgically was taken away from us on Sunday night. Colin had lived on the canal for 10 years and had done much work up and down the canal for many of people. He will be sadle and greatly missed by his family and many friends, he was 54 xx

 

M&M

[Matthew Knowles]

I spotted this on the front page of a certain website...

 

We are currently mourning the loss of Colin Tuffin- who tradgically was taken away from us on Sunday night. Colin had lived on the canal for 10 years and had done much work up and down the canal for many of people. He will be sadle and greatly missed by his family and many friends, he was 54 xx

 

M&M

 

Damned aliens are at it again! Give Fox Mulder a call!

[Pirate]

I spotted this on the front page of a certain website...

 

We are currently mourning the loss of Colin Tuffin- who tradgically was taken away from us on Sunday night. Colin had lived on the canal for 10 years and had done much work up and down the canal for many of people. He will be sadle and greatly missed by his family and many friends, he was 54 xx

 

M&M

 

 

What date does it refer to though (I notice he has a build slot available Nov 09) and what does this have to do with anything other than he´s possibly a relation of an alleged bad builder?

 

People lose loved ones every day. It´s sad. But Life.

Edited August 17, 2010 by Pirate

[Guest]

Pirate - another one I see, not sure why you are reserecting such old posts, if it's a good old argument you're after there's lots of newer rows/stuff you can participate in...

[Pirate]

Pirate - another one I see, not sure why you are reserecting such old posts, if it's a good old argument you're after there's lots of newer rows/stuff you can participate in...

 

 

Not argueing or looking for one at all, Not sure what you mean about "another Pirate"

 

Re Old posts, Yes you may know my last post was about 3 years ago, when despite asking folk to keep my name and affairs out of this forum I come back to find such unsubstantiated drivel written about me.

 

I only came on here to offer a little suport to Hydrophobia but while here I see that some people are still makng totaly false statements relateing to me and my affairs so I do think I have a right to defend my corner and put the record straight. Hope that doesn´t upset you too much.

 

You can read your new posts, I have no interest in them what so ever or this forum for that matter and I wont be wasting my time responding to any other stupid statements like the one you make here.

 

I am going back to my tranquility I have said all I needed to say. Bye Bye best of look Hydrophobia

Edited August 17, 2010 by Pirate

[Guest]

Not argueing or looking for one at all, Not sure what you mean about "another Pirate"

 

You have actually slightly mis quoted me - I was referring to the other post you have also resurrected.

 

Re Old posts, Yes you may know my last post was about 3 years ago, when despite asking folk to keep my name and affairs out of this forum I come back to find such unsubstantiated drivel written about me.

 

No idea about this bit sorry...

 

I only came on here to offer a little suport to Hydrophobia but while here I see that some people are still makng totaly false statements relateing to me and my affairs so I do think I have a right to defend my corner and put the record straight. Hope that doesn´t upset you too much.

 

You can read your new posts, I have no interest in them what so ever or this forum for that matter and I wont be wasting my time responding to any other stupid statements like the one you make here.

 

I am going back to my tranquility I have said all I needed to say. Bye Bye best of look Hydrophobia

 

Fair enough.. bye.

 

 

PS you need to log off if you really are going back to tranquillity...

Edited August 17, 2010 by NB No Deadlines

[Pirate]

You have actually slightly mis quoted me - I was referring to the other post you have also resurrected.

 

 

 

No idea about this bit sorry...

 

 

 

Fair enough.. bye.

 

 

PS you need to log off if you really are going back to tranquillity...

 

Sorry I was just replying to your other thead, Maybe you should do a little more research before becoming one of those people that makes this forum what it is?

 

Well since some of these threads relate to me and are totally untrue I became interested. Is that all right.

 

I have been away for three years, so thought I would see what has been said behind my back.

 

I might ask the very same question to you

 

"Why are certain members all still making malicious false statements about my private affairs, here?

 

This has been going on for over 3 years by the looks of it.

 

If any more statements are made regarding my affairs that you can¨t substantiate I will be complaining to Jon rather than typing here.

Edited August 17, 2010 by Pirate

[Guest]

Sorry I was just replying to your other thead, Maybe you should do a little more research before becoming one of those people that makes this forum what it is?

 

All dealt with here=

 

http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php...st&p=572947