Should we walk away from buying this boat

[Québec]

Hi,

 

Just joined as we're in the middle of purchasing our first narrowboat (we hope!) and would appreciate advice from more experienced boating people.

 

The narrowboat we're interested in has been on a hard standing at the brokers for over a year, and was advertised as needing some straighforward and relatively inexpensive DIY on the interior to make it into a decent craft. That bit is probably accurate, and we were attracted because of the relatively uncluttered, light interior (5 big windows +two portholes!), good quality T&G throughout, and a laminate floor. The Kitchen and bathroom were basic but looked OK.

 

The price had been substantially reduced from the original, totally unrealistic price, and we put in an offer - subject to survey - below the current price, which was accepted, and we paid a 10% deposit.

 

We've now had a full survey which showed that the hull and engine were OK and the gas cooker worked fine.

But the survey also revealed that:

- most of the windows leak (we knew a couple did) and some of the water gets into the electrics.

- the main switchboard has fallen apart (surveyor could only test LX by attaching clips direct from battery to various wires and trying to work out what went where)

- the ignitition key works but the dashboard isn't working (no lights or controls)

- the cable for the 240v ring mains is the wrong type and is unlikely to pass a safety inspection.

- the battery store is unsafe

- the water pump works, but all the pipes leak badly at all of the joints (frost cracking probably) and so water pours everywhere as soon you run the pump. (The lack of pressure means you can't test the water heater, though it's a standard new'ish model and looks OK)

- the pump for the waste water doesn't work. Don't know if it's the pump (unlikely) - or the wiring (probably)

- the weed hatch looks as if its slightly damaged (a bit bent).

 

We reckon that the boat needs c. £2500-3000 of remedial work including labour costs just to be able to get it into the water and obtain a BSC. A bit different from just needing a basically straighforward interior/DIY job!

 

So.....THE QUESTION...do we just walk away and ask for our deposit back (hoping- having read some other posts on here - that they will), or do we - because we do like the boat - demand the vendor makes good the essential systems or reduce our offer to cover the remedial work that needs doing?

 

Apologies for the length and would really appreciate any advice. Thanks in advance.

 

quebec

[Chris Pink]

Given the list you have there's not much there that i would not have expected from the initial description.

 

If the interior is well worn then the systems will have had the same wear. And most of the problems are relatively trivial but bear in mind they are an indication of state. Other things will break soon.

 

It's a question of how much the boat is worth to you, given the amount of work you now know has to be done. Which in a DIY sense is not much incidentally.

 

Reading between the lines it sounds like you really like this boat but are being put off by the amount of work that needs doing. In which case analyse what it is that appeals (lines, size, engine, layout?) and ensure that is not going to change.

 

If the broker didn't make you aware of the issues then the price should go down by the approximate cost of professional repair (though i think your £3000 in the high side)

 

Again i wonder why people put deposits down before survey as a deposit is generally seen as an offer to buy.

[the grinch]

as everything you list is electrical so relatively inexpensive i would consider the following

 

1. the state of the hull (as not mentioned)

2. how much it will cost to remedy the elecs

3. how you bid the seller down by

4. can you do the remedials yourself (keeping the costs to materials only?)

 

and welcome to the site!!

 

kev

[bag 'o' bones]

I think it all depends on how much you have paid for the boat which you havn't mentioned.

 

Buying boats 'at the right price' is all about acertaining how much a similar boat would cost in good 'turn key' usable condition and then depending on what work is required to get it into that condition, negotiatiation of a discount to cover the work required.

 

Its very difficult trying to work out how much a good used boat is so its probably better to come up with a value range based on other boats you already viewed rather than trying to value this boat on specifics (hope that make sense!)

 

As for walking away from the boat I think the only advice I can give - for whats its worth - is to trust your own instincts on what deal is on the table regarding offers of remedying the defects and go from there.

 

Buying boats is no diffrent to buying cars - if the deal doesn't feel right walk away.

[KeithL]

Buying boats is no diffrent to buying cars - if the deal doesn't feel right walk away.

 

Good advice! i recently looked at a narrowboat needing some work and when i mentioned getting an out of water survey done, the owner seemed a bit shifty! saying "but that will cost you a fair bit" etc i would rather spend a few hundred on a survey than thousands on plating!

Edited November 21, 2009 by levellingtheland

[Laurie Booth]

Does the boat have a boat safety cert?

[Keeping Up]

Everything you describe sounds fixable. If the hull is sound and you like the boat, I'd say lower your offer by the amount needed to do the work - and give the vendor the option to have it done himself instead if he thinks your estimated repair cost is too high

[alan_fincher]

I broadly agree with what's be said, and I'm not hearing a reason why you should withdraw, but you should try and further haggle the price down, I think.

 

Some specifics.....

 

Leaking windows can quickly become more serious than they appear. If the wooden surrounds and linings have got wet then it can quickly become a big job to repair, particularly if it has something like Rockwool insulation that can wick water far and wide, and be doing more damage than is immediately obvious.

 

You need to try and understand if water is getting in between the window frames and the boat, (usually relatively easy to remove and re-instate windows with new sealant), or if rubber seals in the windows themselves have failed, (it may still be possible to replace these, but y0u are looking at a bigger job if the windows still have to come off, and need fixing or replacement themselves too).

 

What are the water pipes that have leaking joints made from, and how are they jointed ? If copper fittings have been split it could be a biggish job, but if it's all plastic push fit, damaged fittings are easy to replace, and it may just be that joints have been forced apart, and can be put back together again without any new parts needed.

 

The big thing is hull and engine condition, and you seem to have passed fine on those.

 

Hang in there, but negotiate further!

[Québec]

Hi again, and thanks to all replies so far - much appreciated and very helpful.

 

To answer Chris: we, too, wondered about why were were being asked to pay a deposit BEFORE the survey, but the broker - part of a large, well-established marina/workshop complex - insisted this was standard procedure, and being new to boating we queried it but felt no choice but to accept that condition. Re: the estimated cost being high we've been quoted c.£800 by an electrician regularly used by the marina who's seen what needs to be done; c. £700 labour costs (3 full days) for the windows excluding the cost of the windows (c. £850 - £1000); c: £300 to fix the plumbing and make the battery storage area safe and secure (which I could do but wouldn't be allowed to as long as the boat is on a hard standing at the marina and not in a DIY shed.)

 

To answer Laurie: there's no safety certificate, and no one can seem to find out when the last one was. The owner has, to all purposes, disappeared and left virtually no documentation on the history of the boat. The brokers clearly want rid of it, but they also don't want to lose too much in commission.

 

To answer bag'o bones: the brokers only this week sold a similar sized boat (which we saw and really didn't like in terms of layout and interior) in 'turn key' usable condition' that 'flew' through a full survey, for only c. £1500 more than our current offer - which was made subject to survey - and therefore based on what we could see (and also based on a lot of homework, seeing/comparing other boats, etc.)

 

To hamsterfan: I did say that the survey found that 'the hull and engine were OK, and the gas cooker worked fine!

 

To all...

 

We DO like the boat...which is why we haven't just walked away as soon as it got complicated.

[KeithL]

by an electrician regularly used by the marina who's seen what needs to be done; c. £700 labour costs (3 full days)

 

 

I think he may be taking the piss with the labour charges especially in the current economic climate!

[Québec]

Hi Alan,

 

Replying directly not wanting to clog up the thread.

 

Thanks for the warning about the leaks spreading via the insulation. it is Rockwool, and we can see some of the actual wooden window frames have been water damaged, but they are easily replaceable. I'm sure it's been leaking for a while, but - so far - there's only one very small area on the T&G panelling, that goes through the whole boat, where the wood's been blackened. All the rest looks to be in excellent condition - one of the few things that is! I would have thought, given it's been uncared for over a year, that if the leaking was really serious more damage would have shown by now. For some reason the single narrow panel that runs the entire length of the boat under the T&G just beneath the windows has been removed to enable some DIY wiring to be fitted, so the insulation can be seen...and felt. Seems to be dry. Also means that some air is getting to it. A key factor for me is that the laminate floor has't lifted...yet. Having got it at home I know how easily water can warp it quite quickly.

 

The windows are pop riveted and the leaks seem to be combination of leaky frames and fading rubber seals. What I don't want is someone to go round with a silicone sealant gun. What I forgot to mention is that we discovered that all the windows - which are hoppers - have been sealed shut with silicone sealant, presumably because they were already leaking.

 

We're still hanging in there!

 

quebec

 

 

I broadly agree with what's be said, and I'm not hearing a reason why you should withdraw, but you should try and further haggle the price down, I think.

 

Some specifics.....

 

Leaking windows can quickly become more serious than they appear. If the wooden surrounds and linings have got wet then it can quickly become a big job to repair, particularly if it has something like Rockwool insulation that can wick water far and wide, and be doing more damage than is immediately obvious.

 

You need to try and understand if water is getting in between the window frames and the boat, (usually relatively easy to remove and re-instate windows with new sealant), or if rubber seals in the windows themselves have failed, (it may still be possible to replace these, but y0u are looking at a bigger job if the windows still have to come off, and need fixing or replacement themselves too).

 

What are the water pipes that have leaking joints made from, and how are they jointed ? If copper fittings have been split it could be a biggish job, but if it's all plastic push fit, damaged fittings are easy to replace, and it may just be that joints have been forced apart, and can be put back together again without any new parts needed.

 

The big thing is hull and engine condition, and you seem to have passed fine on those.

 

Hang in there, but negotiate further!

 

 

If only.......3 days (21 hours?) at £35 an hour = £735.....and this is from a guy who has been recommended to us by several narrowboating friends.

 

 

I think he may be taking the piss with the labour charges especially in the current economic climate!

[OldGoldy]

............ there's no safety certificate, and no one can seem to find out when the last one was. The owner has, to all purposes, disappeared and left virtually no documentation on the history of the boat.

I don't know if they'll 'play ball', but I'd certainly ask BW if the boat has a current BSC.

 

If it has, then you can get it in the water, licensed and back to your moorings. You have arranged moorings, haven't you?

 

- Then you're not tied to the broker/ marina's facilities and IMHO in a better position to haggle the price down (further?) and

get in your own electrician & plumber to do the work if these quotes are not to your liking (they seem high to me, I think

they recognise you as being noobs and are trying it on!)

[OldGoldy]

What I don't want is someone to go round with a silicone sealant gun.

In the short term you could use a bitumen-based roof & gutter sealant, (the surplus of which can be removed with white

spirit) around the frames and the glass.

 

When the weather improves you can take out each window in turn and either renovate the seals and rubbers yourself,

or have them done at the manufacturers.

[MrCJ]

To answer Laurie: there's no safety certificate, and no one can seem to find out when the last one was. The owner has, to all purposes, disappeared and left virtually no documentation on the history of the boat. The brokers clearly want rid of it, but they also don't want to lose too much in commission.

 

I think you should really look into why there is no form of documention and history to the boat. Does the broker have legall rights to sell etc.

[Québec]

I like to agree but several Catch 22's....

 

99.9% certain it hasn't got a BSC....but will follow up the BW line of enquiry

 

Can't put boat in the water without a BSC

 

Can't go in the water anyway until LX are fixed.

 

Won't pass a safety inspection without the remedial work being undertaken.

 

Cant' get 'our own' electicians etc. in as marina will only allow it's own or electricians/engineers it knows and recognises to work on boats whilst boat is in the marina.

 

Haven't got a mooring...yet...as we haven't got a boat!

 

My brain hurts!

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't know if they'll 'play ball', but I'd certainly ask BW if the boat has a current BSC.

 

If it has, then you can get it in the water, licensed and back to your moorings. You have arranged moorings, haven't you?

 

- Then you're not tied to the broker/ marina's facilities and IMHO in a better position to haggle the price down (further?) and

get in your own electrician & plumber to do the work if these quotes are not to your liking (they seem high to me, I think

they recognise you as being noobs and are trying it on!)

[Cosmic]

Cant' get 'our own' electicians etc. in as marina will only allow it's own or electricians/engineers it knows and recognises to work on boats whilst boat is in the marina.

Is there any way that your choice of tradesmen can become known to them? If they are suitably qualified and have reasonable levels of insurance in place, there shouldn't be much reason for the marina to object.

[bottle]

Haven't got a mooring...yet...as we haven't got a boat!

 

Ah! The catch 22. it is normally advised that a mooring is got before a boat, as moorings are much rarer than boats. (unless you plan to be Continuous Cruisers of course)

[Jamboat]

"The owner has, to all purposes, disappeared and left virtually no documentation on the history of the boat. The brokers clearly want rid of it, but they also don't want to lose too much in commission."

 

Then the broker must have some contact with the owner - how else will the owner recieve money from sale ??

Edited November 21, 2009 by Aira

[Québec]

Hi,

 

We've got a mooring lined up (+ an alternative if the first falls through for nay reason) for if and when.

 

 

 

Ah! The catch 22. it is normally advised that a mooring is got before a boat, as moorings are much rarer than boats. (unless you plan to be Continuous Cruisers of course)

 

 

Hi Julia,

 

It gets weirder the more one gets into it. I was trying to keep it relatively simple on the forum!

 

The 'owner' has legally transferred ownership to his daughter, who is there - it would seem - simply to collect the money from the sale. She knows nothing about the boat. He cannot be contacted it seems.

 

 

 

"The owner has, to all purposes, disappeared and left virtually no documentation on the history of the boat. The brokers clearly want rid of it, but they also don't want to lose too much in commission."

 

Then the broker must have some contact with the owner - how else will the owner recieve money from sale ??

[Keeping Up]

If there is effectively no documentation, I take it the boat is old enough that there are no issues over a lack of rcd certification ?

[bottle]

The more I hear the more my instinct is saying to many ifs and buts about this boat.

 

Personally, I would take steps, bl**dy big ones in the opposite direction, there are plenty of other boats out there.

 

I know you did not like the other boat but it sold for not much more than this one and it had all the correct papers etc. (If I remember correctly)

 

It has been said before, all though very difficult to do, Head before Heart.

[magpie patrick]

Given the list you have there's not much there that i would not have expected from the initial description.

 

If the interior is well worn then the systems will have had the same wear. And most of the problems are relatively trivial but bear in mind they are an indication of state. Other things will break soon.

 

It's a question of how much the boat is worth to you, given the amount of work you now know has to be done. Which in a DIY sense is not much incidentally.

 

Reading between the lines it sounds like you really like this boat but are being put off by the amount of work that needs doing. In which case analyse what it is that appeals (lines, size, engine, layout?) and ensure that is not going to change.

 

If the broker didn't make you aware of the issues then the price should go down by the approximate cost of professional repair (though i think your £3000 in the high side)

 

Again i wonder why people put deposits down before survey as a deposit is generally seen as an offer to buy.

 

In my limited experience, an offer is required before they will let you survey the boat. I guess this is the floating cottage brigade, or rather, the brokers' defence against them

 

That's why I always had a concealed screwdriver, multi-meter and multi-purpose spanner in my poacher's pocket when inspecting a boat. The viewing was unaccompanied and there wasn't much left untouched by this cursory inspection.

[MrCJ]

The 'owner' has legally transferred ownership to his daughter, who is there - it would seem - simply to collect the money from the sale. She knows nothing about the boat. He cannot be contacted it seems.

 

Am I the only one that think this is odd Owner transferring to daughter,giving no information then disappearing, daughter then getting broker to sell it.

 

This sounds so odd to me or am I looking into it to much?

[Québec]

It's 22 years old. Sorry, I have should stated that right at the beginning.

 

 

If there is effectively no documentation, I take it the boat is old enough that there are no issues over a lack of rcd certification ?

[Jamboat]

Am I the only one that think this is odd Owner transferring to daughter,giving no information then disappearing, daughter then getting broker to sell it.

 

This sounds so odd to me or am I looking into it to much?

 

No, think it is definately a bit fishy....