Stove door doesn't seal problem

[Peter R]

Last time I was on the boat I noticed that in one place there is a gap between the rope seal on the door and the stove faceplate on my villager heron. I think this has been caused by the faceplate of the stove 'wasting' over time (i think it is probably the original stove from when the boat was originally fitted circa 1992)

 

I've been considering changing the stove anyway due to a couple of other minor issues, so this is probably the 'last straw' that will prompt replacement.

 

However, the question of immediate concern is whether an imperfect door seal means that the stove shouldn't be used? My immediate feeling is that once the fire's going the poor seal is more likely to let in additional combustion air than to let out fumes, but i'd be interested in what other's think.

 

Peter

[PhilR]

Last time I was on the boat I noticed that in one place there is a gap between the rope seal on the door and the stove faceplate on my villager heron. I think this has been caused by the faceplate of the stove 'wasting' over time (i think it is probably the original stove from when the boat was originally fitted circa 1992)

 

I've been considering changing the stove anyway due to a couple of other minor issues, so this is probably the 'last straw' that will prompt replacement.

 

However, the question of immediate concern is whether an imperfect door seal means that the stove shouldn't be used? My immediate feeling is that once the fire's going the poor seal is more likely to let in additional combustion air than to let out fumes, but i'd be interested in what other's think.

 

Peter

 

Hi Peter

 

What you describe is typical of most stoves. When they are a few years old it is rare to get a perfect seal on the door. I wouldn't worry about it as long as:

 

1. The stove is burning normally

2. The flue pipe and chimney aren't restricted.

3. You have adequate low and high level ventilation

4. You have a CO alarm that is working.

 

Phil

[churchward]

Last time I was on the boat I noticed that in one place there is a gap between the rope seal on the door and the stove faceplate on my villager heron. I think this has been caused by the faceplate of the stove 'wasting' over time (i think it is probably the original stove from when the boat was originally fitted circa 1992)

 

I've been considering changing the stove anyway due to a couple of other minor issues, so this is probably the 'last straw' that will prompt replacement.

 

However, the question of immediate concern is whether an imperfect door seal means that the stove shouldn't be used? My immediate feeling is that once the fire's going the poor seal is more likely to let in additional combustion air than to let out fumes, but i'd be interested in what other's think.

 

Peter

It is just a small gap then I expect that it will be sucking air in rather than letting air out. I hope you have got a CO detector on board if not then better to be safe than sorry and don't light it.

 

Small gaps in the rope seal don't seem to cause problems on most stoves but larger gaps or cracks in the glass door starts to let Co back into the room which as we all know is bad.

 

One thing is for certain left alone it won't get better and will probably get worse so I would fit a new rope seal or indeed replace the stove if it is worn out ASAP.

[Peter R]

To answer the queries raised so far

 

The stove is burning normally

the flue pipe and chimney aren't restricted (i've run the cleaning brush through recently)

I believe the ventilation is OK (two vents in front doors plus roof vents, plus I rarely have all the windows shut with the stove lit)

I have a working CO alarm

 

The rope seal has also been replaced recently. The Heron's door hinges from the bottom and in simple terms the seal meets the front of the stove at top and bottom, but not in the middle. I've not measured the gap as yet, but it is visible to the eye. It has probably been like it for quite a while, as I only noticed it as a result of lying on the floor next to the stove whilst painting the inside of the storage locker that's next to it!

 

Peter

[ditchcrawler]

To answer the queries raised so far

 

The stove is burning normally

the flue pipe and chimney aren't restricted (i've run the cleaning brush through recently)

I believe the ventilation is OK (two vents in front doors plus roof vents, plus I rarely have all the windows shut with the stove lit)

I have a working CO alarm

 

The rope seal has also been replaced recently. The Heron's door hinges from the bottom and in simple terms the seal meets the front of the stove at top and bottom, but not in the middle. I've not measured the gap as yet, but it is visible to the eye. It has probably been like it for quite a while, as I only noticed it as a result of lying on the floor next to the stove whilst painting the inside of the storage locker that's next to it!

 

Peter

If the gap gets too big you could find the fire running away and getting too hot, due to too much air being drawn in. So providing the gap is small enough that the fire is still controllable then its no different to having a vent open.

[Keeping Up]

After all is said, if the gap were big enough you would ultimately arrive at having an open fireplace. And they've been working just fine in houses for rather a long time.

[churchward]

After all is said, if the gap were big enough you would ultimately arrive at having an open fireplace. And they've been working just fine in houses for rather a long time.

A very dangerous thought. It is NOT the same as an open fire in a house. For a start chimney is much larger (wider bore) and longer and will have a much stronger upward draft. A stove with an open door is still burning in a low oxygen environment and so will produce CO.

 

I can tell you that this CO will get in to the room from a large opening. When we had a share boat one time the door glass cracked and the glass later fell into the fire. Despite thinking that we would just let the fire go out (after all the smoke is still going up the chimney right?) after about 30 mins or so the CO alarm went off. the display was showing 650 parts per million. To put this in context the level beyond which a human becomes effected is around 70 ppm!! Any CO exposure of a long period will build up in your system so even low levels can be dangerous over time.

Edited October 25, 2009 by churchward

[Justme]

If extra air is getting you need to watch that you dont get a run away fire. If its only a small gap then should not be to bad. I would worry about keeping it in over night / unattended.

[alan_fincher]

We have a Villager Heron of similar vintage.

 

I'm surprised by your issue, as the door is a very solid casting, and the stove body a wrapper of very solid sheet steel, (about 6mm I'd say). The correct door seals are pretty massive, and the usual problem on seal replacement seems to be too much seal, rather than not enough. There is usually more than enough material to seal all around, even if it is more compacted at some points than others.

 

Are you sure you have the correct packing, which uncompressed must be close on a centimetre in diameter ? The only part of the door that adjusts is the catch, which can be made tighter or looser, (if you can shift a lot of corrosion!) Is it not possible to simply make it tighter, so the top squashes in more and closes the side gaps ?

 

If not that "wasting" sounds quite bad - can you describe it more, or provide a picture.

 

We have just given our Heron a once over, and concluded it's in near perfect condition, other than a previously reported problem that the "zapped on" studs to fasten the front glass can soon part company. We now have the cheap and nasty modification I recall yours had - bolts right through the door front, rather than those unreliable studs. Not pretty, but stove is now in my opinion a "good one". Replacement by something new and equivalent will cost you close to £400 from what I can see - it's worth trying to revive your Heron, if not terminally damaged, I'd have thought.

 

If extra air is getting you need to watch that you dont get a run away fire. If its only a small gap then should not be to bad. I would worry about keeping it in over night / unattended.

I'm not convinced that air getting in around the main door will cause a run-away with this particular stove. They tend to die down if you open that top door, not roar away. The potential issue is of fumes getting out.

 

It's the amount of air getting past the door at ashpan height that is almost solely what controls the burn rate of this incredibly minimalistic stove - that would appear to be why Peter's has what looks like a user modification to add swivel vents to that lower door - the standard stove can only be controlled by how open you make the whole of the lower door, (a bit of a black art, when it comes to keeping the stove in all night!).

[nb Innisfree]

Might not be relevant to your case but our Villager Puffin started burning lopsided last year, eventually realised it was the door seal which had developed a small gap near the (side) hinge, caused by being more compressed there and eventually flattening out.

[Peter R]

Thanks for your thoughts Alan, it's always useful to get an opinion from someone who's got the same device

 

Are you sure you have the correct packing, which uncompressed must be close on a centimetre in diameter ?

It's possible that i've been using the wrong size sealing rope - not having any better info to go by i've just been using the same size as was fitted when I got the boat, but there's no guarantee that the previous owner had it right! I've just measured a spare a spare bit of what I have at present and it's about 7-8mm in 'unused' condition. Looking at some new stoves in the chandler's earlier, most of them seemed to have bigger seals than i'm using, but that could just be down to them being different design. Not sure if it shows very well, but photo below shows door with present seal

 

The photo below shows a 'side-on' view with the door closed where you should hopefully be able to see the gap - I reckon it's about 2mm. As another indication of the wear this stove seems to have suffered, you can probably also see that part of the edge of the groove that the seal sits in has also disappeared.

 

The only part of the door that adjusts is the catch, which can be made tighter or looser, (if you can shift a lot of corrosion!) Is it not possible to simply make it tighter, so the top squashes in more and closes the side gaps ?

 

I'm not sure if it's entirely original, my catch looks like this

 

I had to replace the bolt that forms the adjustment about 3 years ago as the old one broke when I tried to adjust it! Tightening up the catch might not be that simple anyway as there's an issue with the catch as well, which also dosen't help the situation - there is a LOT of play in the shaft of the catch. If you pull the top of the door outwards when in the closed position, there is enough play to allow a significant gap to be created at the top, see photo below.

 

If not that "wasting" sounds quite bad - can you describe it more, or provide a picture.

 

I haven't managed to get a picture that shows it properly, but i took some measurements earlier. Measuring the thickness of the front plate away from the edge of the opening it appears to be about 4mm thick. However, the part of the front plate that the door closes onto around the edge of the opening is about 2mm - so it appears that i've lost about 2mm of thickness where the door seal meets the front plate!

 

I could get a new door (for £85!) which would resolve the issue with the catch and then with a bigger seal it might seal OK for a while longer. However, given the degree of wastage my feeling at the moment is it would only be prolonging the inevitable and it might be better to put that money towards a new stove!

 

Looking on midland's website (to get the price of a door) i've noticed that you can just get the doorknob and catch for about £16, so I suppose I could try fitting a new catch and bigger seal and see if that works for now.

 

hmmm .... any thoughts as to best course of action anyone?

 

Peter

[alan_fincher]

Peter,

 

I'll try and take some pictures of mine, for comparison.

 

But briefly,

 

1) That rope, from memory, sounds significantly thinner than we are using.

 

2) Your catch, even modified, doesn't look massively different from ours, and we have a fair bit of play too, when the door is unfastened. However the play is not so much that, when the catch is adjusted, the door will not pull fully tight.

 

3) The door side doesn't look in fantastic state.

 

4) Don't like the sound of stove body only being about 2mm thick near part of door opening. IT does sound like a lot has "gone missing". I think the steel that our stove is made from is more than 4mm, even, possibly 5mm ? I'll measure it, if I can.

 

5) I can't imagine how anything could "waste away", they seem to be built like the proverbial brick s***house - or at least ours is. Yours sounds a bit "abused".

 

 

Alan

[alan_fincher]

Peter,

 

More info about our Heron, having had the opportunity to look at it cold today.

 

Our door rope has become "well compressed" with use, (probably due for replacement). However it measures a full 12 to 13 mm wide, in it's squashed state, whilst still providing at least enough bulk to seal a gap of about 5mm between cast door and steel front of stove. I reckoin when round it would be at least 9mm, so what you are using sounds on the small side.

 

The steel in our stove body is actually 5mm. There is no "wastage" around the door area, and a steel ruler edge can be placed upon it, with no obvious high or low spots. I think this is the biggest problem you face. I don't know why yours appears to have lost steel, but unless a welder can build it up, then grind back to flat, I suspect getting a proper seal will be hard.

 

With the door firmly closed, the gap being filled by the squashed seal (measured at the outside of the door edge) is around 5mm.

 

There is lots of "play" in the spindle of our door knob, so the locking mechanism will rock, when the door is open. However on ours it all goes tight as you clamp it shut, and I have no fears about it's airtightness.

 

I tried taking pictures, but capturing detail of a black stove ain't that easy, is it ? If a photo of any detail would be useful, though, then please ask.

[Peter R]

Thanks for the info Alan

 

I've fitted the proper seal (actual villager spare part) and tightened up the door catch a bit today, which I think has improved the situation, although there is still a gap in one place. The good news is that i've had it lit for over 5 hours and the CO detector (which is presently on a shelf right next to the stove) is still reading zero, so it looks as if nothing untoward is coming out at the moment.

 

I'll have to have another look in the morning, but I think I might be able to 'bodge' it with an extra bit of seal to get through this winter, although I think a new stove is probably going to be on the shopping list for next summer.

 

Looking at it closely, I think you're about right in that it has been somewhat 'abused' by the previous owner (or at least sorely neglected) as most of the sides and top face are showing a degree of pitting due to corrosion, although by far the worst bit is around the door. My suspicion is that the previous owner spent very little time on board during the winter, and left the stove door shut, leading to the seal becoming damp, and the damp seal in contact with the steel then promoted corrosion where it met. I can't think of any other way to replicate the wear pattern i've got.

 

Peter