The loss of another transport icon

[NB Alnwick]

Fleetwood (Lancashire) Town Centre, 12th October 2009

 

Although not directly waterways related, it is worth mentioning that the above scene of a traditional double deck electric tram on a busy town street will disappear forever around midnight on Sunday, 8th November 2009. Electric trams have been serving the area for more than a Century and, as the last significant traditional street tramway, trams still trundle along the streets of Fleetwood to represent a mode of public transport that was otherwise eliminated from our towns in the early 1960s.

 

In recent years, it has become more and more obvious that the drivers of other road vehicles do not know how to cope with these traditional trams (that still stop in the middle of the road to let passenger board and disembark) so the tracks will be truncated at the end of the current 'illuminations season' and, in future, all trams will terminate on the segregated tracks at the edge of the town. It has to be admitted that, these days, the trams (which mostly date from the 1930s) do seem old, ungainly and slow in comparison with the modern buses that serve the same route. It was different in the past, when I first travelled to Blackpool in the 1960s the trams would often out-accelerate the buses and were very much quicker as well as being warmer in Winter and always more comfortable.

 

As part of an £80m 'modernisation' programme, the tram tracks in Blackpool have already been closed south of the 'Pleasure Beach' and, between now and 2012, the whole system is to be 'upgraded' to a modern 'Light Railway' system running on the route of the segregated tracks. New trains built in Austria will replace the traditional trams on regular services and a new depot is being built at Starr Gate to eliminate the short sections of street tramway that currently link the existing tram sheds and works at Blackpool's Rigby Road with the segregated main line.

 

An appeal is underway to establish a tramway museum in Blackpool and efforts are being made to ensure that some of the traditional trams will be retained for special excursions along the promenade.

Edited October 14, 2009 by NB Alnwick

[RLWP]

What about here: Bilston road, Wolverhampton

 

A tram sharing a roadway with motor cars.

 

Richard

Edited October 14, 2009 by RLWP

[carlt]

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You've been practising, haven't you!

[RLWP]

You've been practising, haven't you!

 

Yes, but not with any success...

 

Richard

 

See the edit

[Naughty Cal]

Trams are a bloody nuisiance. Have a drive around Sheffield if you dont believe me. The tracks are a danger to every other road user, the trams are quite often empty during the day and then go on to cause mayhem during the rush hour when they stop for an age at a tram stop causing traffic to back up through road junctions.

 

As you can probably tell i am not a fan.

[NB Alnwick]

What about here: Bilston road, Wolverhampton

 

A tram sharing a roadway with motor cars.

 

Richard

 

Although the trams share the road with other vehicles on several of the 'new' tramways, they are modern systems based on the practices developed in mainland Europe. The Blackpool/Fleetwood trams still work to the British systems developed more than a century ago and made entirely in this country. And many of the trams currently operating into Fleetwood are double deckers - you don't see those anywhere else in Europe . . .

[Athy]

Reading your post I hoped that the date on it was April 1st - it seems "to' daft to laff at" as my dad used to say. Double-decker trams are a major tourist attraction in Blackpool, unlike the light-railway style system in Manchester or even the admirable new Sheffield system (having travelled on the old Sheffield trams as a small boy on Last Tram Day in 1960 I was delighted to visit the city a few years ago and have a go on the new ones).

Perhaps the council should consider updating the Blackpool beach into a more modern theme park and getting rid of those old-fashioned donkeys, buckets and spades & c.

[carlt]

Are there still double decker trams in Hong Kong?

[Naughty Cal]

or even the admirable new Sheffield system (having travelled on the old Sheffield trams as a small boy on Last Tram Day in 1960 I was delighted to visit the city a few years ago and have a go on the new ones).

 

Are you insane?

[tomsk]

For Graham and Phylis

 

[Athy]

Are you insane?

 

Thank you for your concern, but no, I don't think I am. What prompted your question?

[Naughty Cal]

Thank you for your concern, but no, I don't think I am. What prompted your question?

 

A couple of points

 

1. You where delighted to visit Sheffield

2. You went on the tram

[carlt]

A couple of points

 

1. You where delighted to visit Sheffield

2. You went on the tram

Sheffield's okay but it's not like the old days when, driving up the M1, in the dark, the distinctive Sheffield stench told me that I was half an hour from home, in Doncaster.

[Athy]

A couple of points

 

1. You where delighted to visit Sheffield

2. You went on the tram

1) As you will have inferred from my post, I spent my (very happy) boyhood in that fair city, in a suburb called Gleadless, from ages 0.5 to 13. I rarely go there now, but when I do it always evokes pleasant memories.

 

2) Yes, and...? They are not quite as much fun as the old double-deckers ( which used to terminate at somewhere called Vulcan Road for no apparent reason) but still pretty good, fast, comfy, convenient. I bought an all-day ticket and travelled right to the end of one of the routes before doubling back and alighting at Gleadless to visit my ageing Auntie. I did a very similar trip in Brussels last year, the only difference being that I have no Auntie there.

[NB Alnwick]

Are there still double decker trams in Hong Kong?

 

Yes! The Hong Kong system originated in 1904 and it currently boasts the largest double decker tram system in the world with over 150 vehicles in service everyday. The tramway is regarded by the chinese as an important element in their heritage and culture - even so it is quite remarkable how a traditional 'British tramway' survives in such a modern city.

 

 

Edited to add link . . .

Edited October 14, 2009 by NB Alnwick

[Naughty Cal]

1) As you will have inferred from my post, I spent my (very happy) boyhood in that fair city, in a suburb called Gleadless, from ages 0.5 to 13. I rarely go there now, but when I do it always evokes pleasant memories.

 

2) Yes, and...? They are not quite as much fun as the old double-deckers ( which used to terminate at somewhere called Vulcan Road for no apparent reason) but still pretty good, fast, comfy, convenient. I bought an all-day ticket and travelled right to the end of one of the routes before doubling back and alighting at Gleadless to visit my ageing Auntie. I did a very similar trip in Brussels last year, the only difference being that I have no Auntie there.

 

That explains a lot

 

1. Gleadless is a sh*t hole (or it is now, i have heard tales of it once being a pleasant place to live)

 

2. Tram spotter The trams are convenient if they go vaguely where you want to go. For the other 99% of the population of Sheffield they are a nuisance.

[Hairy-Neil]

Trams are a bloody nuisiance. Have a drive around Sheffield if you dont believe me. The tracks are a danger to every other road user......

 

Learn how to drive.

[Naughty Cal]

Learn how to drive.

 

Thats doesnt help when you tyres get wedged in the tram tracks or skid across them when it is wet.

 

(For the record no accidents/incidents whilst i have been driving my car)

[Athy]

That explains a lot

 

1. Gleadless is a sh*t hole (or it is now, i have heard tales of it once being a pleasant place to live)

 

2. Tram spotter The trams are convenient if they go vaguely where you want to go. For the other 99% of the population of Sheffield they are a nuisance.

I think I may be one of the few surviving forum members who hasn't yet gone six rounds with you Phylis, but it could be about to happen. Your description of Gleadless is unfortunate and wide of the mark, at least it's at variance with what I saw last time I was there about 3 years ago. Perhaps you are thinking of Gleadless Valley, the tower-block estate? That may fit your description but it's not really in Gleadless. I'm referring to the old-establishd Gleadless, around (from memory) Ridgeway Road, Gleadless Common, and certainly Gleadless Avenue (which is where I lived).

I think "Person with an interest in traditional transport" might be more accurate than tram-spotter (though I gladly own up to having been a train-spotter at Sheffield Midland and Victoria staions in the latter days of steam). I also like traction engines and, of yes, canal boats!

I did not find the new trams a nuisance in the slightest. Are there plans to build any more routes?

[Hairy-Neil]

......I bought an all-day ticket and travelled right to the end of one of the routes before doubling back and alighting at Gleadless to visit my ageing Auntie. I did a very similar trip in Brussels last year......

 

I've did the whole Sheffield system like that and the Nottingham and Wolverhampton trams too. Ridden some of Manchester and most of Dublin's but as yet, not the entire route miles.

 

Back in 2005 my daughter treated me to a weekend in Nuremburg in february. Daytime temperature ranged from -4 to -7. I did most of my sightseeing from the warmth of the trams, again with a day rover.

 

They differ from ours in having a driving cab at one end only and a turning loop at the end of each route.

[Naughty Cal]

I think I may be one of the few surviving forum members who hasn't yet gone six rounds with you Phylis, but it could be about to happen. Your description of Gleadless is unfortunate and wide of the mark, at least it's at variance with what I saw last time I was there about 3 years ago. Perhaps you are thinking of Gleadless Valley, the tower-block estate? That may fit your description but it's not really in Gleadless. I'm referring to the old-establishd Gleadless, around (from memory) Ridgeway Road, Gleadless Common, and certainly Gleadless Avenue (which is where I lived).

I think "Person with an interest in traditional transport" might be more accurate than tram-spotter (though I gladly own up to having been a train-spotter at Sheffield Midland and Victoria staions in the latter days of steam). I also like traction engines and, of yes, canal boats!

I did not find the new trams a nuisance in the slightest. Are there plans to build any more routes?

 

Where to start.

 

The area you are describing is not called Gleadless but either if local "The common" if not "Townend" and its not what it used to be.

 

"Person with an interest in traditional transport" is a little long to roll of the tongue and there is really nothing traditional about the trams that litter the city centre and surrounding areas. This is not traditional tram

 

There where plans to extend the lines, luckily they where scrapped when they realised that no one is interested in the damn things. Visitors to the city may well think they are a good idea, the people that have to live with them day in day out hate them.

[Derek R.]

For Graham and Phylis

 

 

It might be prudent to consider, that if the present day canal system was still a major industrial artery for the transportation of goods, we might not be welcomed on it! In the case of Fleetwood trams, like other usurped transport systems; the atmospheric railway; the Trolleybus, they have done their best, but costs involved in maintenance, and the superior flexibility of the motor bus make the latter not only a logical alternative to adopt, but a necessary one under the prevailing circumstances.

 

I grew up surrounded by Trolleybuses in North London, and was sad to see them replaced by Routemasters. While the tram has its attractions, so do most Follies. I wrote this six years ago to a leading newspaper, whether it got published or not, I do not know.

 

--------------------------

April (coincidence?) 2003.

 

 

Dear Sir,

 

I like trams. They are photogenic, quiet and 'swishy', accelerate rapidly, you know exactly where they are going to go, and can shift hundreds of people in an articulated set. They remind me of branch line railways and modern transport all at the same time.

 

Trams are like beautiful women, or expensive cars; lovely to see; lovely to watch; lovely to hear - but they'll break your heart, and your pocket. They need specialised depots, hundreds of miles of steel track set into an existing road network upon which some of the vehicles are incompatible with, two wheelers primarily. The servicing of underground cables and conduits becomes increasingly difficult with embedded trackwork, which itself wears out and needs replacing periodically. (The town of Grenoble is renewing it's tram track after just ten years of service. One of the reasons why London trams were eclipsed by the bus). Their tyres, steel variety, also wear and need replacing and not by Kwik Fit. They cannot be driven around accidents or temporary road closures for any reason. One power failure and the whole network can be affected. Overhead wirework is expensive to maintain in addition to trackwork. They are public transport in a straight jacket.

 

In 1949 the presence of a tramcar on the streets of London was an embarrassment to the capital's post war planners, and as such was cited as an obstacle to all manner of traffic improvement schemes. In the 'County of London Plan', which promised a wholesale rejuvenation of the metropolitan area, tramways, modern or otherwise, did not enter the equation.

 

In that same year Lord Latham, Chairman of the London Transport Executive, delivered a speech outlining plans for the tramways conversion program in which he stated: "The loss on the trams is about £1,000,000 a year." 1949 remember. In the same year it was announced that the Trolley-Bus system would also be scrapped.

 

Sir Cyril Hurcomb, Chairman of the British Transport Commission, was quoted as saying that maintenance on vehicles and tracks was costing around one and a half million pounds a year. That was March 1949. Two months later, on 16th May, the same theme was taken up in the House of Commons by Mr Callaghan, the then Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Transport. He reiterated that the Government did not favour retaining systems which required keeping a fixed track in the public road.

 

It is said that history oft repeats itself. If you want an example of the worst excesses of tram plans you have only to look at the scheme that Ken Livingstone and TfL are planning for West London. There the main roads that currently carry a large percentage of through traffic will be CLOSED at choke points in Acton and Ealing to allow the trams to run and all other traffic shuffled off into the back streets. Roads are the arteries of commerce. It needs free circulation - not choking to death.

 

It seems some things do not change: The ignorance of history and the repetition of errors.

 

Derek Reynolds.

----------------

 

Some beautiful trams - but look at the space they have to operate in.

More on UK trams from Light Rail.

 

Expensive damage, Plumstead, SE London.

 

[Hairy-Neil]

Thats doesnt help when you tyres get wedged in the tram tracks or skid across them when it is wet.

 

Dave would come up with a quote from the Highway Code....

 

 

 

Section 146

Adapt your driving to the appropriate type and condition of road you are on. In particular

 

* do not treat speed limits as a target. It is often not appropriate or safe to drive at the maximum speed limit

* take the road and traffic conditions into account. Be prepared for unexpected or difficult situations, for example, the road being blocked beyond a blind bend. Be prepared to adjust your speed as a precaution

 

147

 

 

* be patient; remember that anyone can make a mistake

* Do not allow yourself to become agitated or involved if someone is behaving badly on the road. This will only make the situation worse. Pull over, calm down and, when you feel relaxed, continue your journey

[Naughty Cal]

Dave would come up with a quote from the Highway Code....

 

 

 

Section 146

Adapt your driving to the appropriate type and condition of road you are on. In particular

 

* do not treat speed limits as a target. It is often not appropriate or safe to drive at the maximum speed limit

* take the road and traffic conditions into account. Be prepared for unexpected or difficult situations, for example, the road being blocked beyond a blind bend. Be prepared to adjust your speed as a precaution

 

147

 

 

* be patient; remember that anyone can make a mistake

* Do not allow yourself to become agitated or involved if someone is behaving badly on the road. This will only make the situation worse. Pull over, calm down and, when you feel relaxed, continue your journey

 

 

Liked that, however where can you pull over on a tram route?

[NB Alnwick]

I think the fact that drivers in Hong Kong can cope with their congestion and their trams where those in Fleetwood (and other areas of Britain that have trams) seem to struggle must say a lot about the decline in our standards of tolerance. Similarly, the strong preference for travelling in private vehicles as opposed to supporting public transport must reflect our present day social attitudes . . .