housing benifit for a boat?

[snowman57]

Hello,

I would like to ask the forum if anyone here has been able to attain housing benefit for living on a boat? In this case not a residential moored boat, but a boat on a roaming license? if this is possible could someone fill me in on the ins and outs please.

Another point, If it made matters easier with a local authority, would taking a winter mooring be the answer and would they pay for this?

I have taken a share on a boat, and live on a canal boat, but I am under the threat of redundancy this is why I am asking.

If anyone could help great,

Info on this subject is rather thin on the ground.

Thanks

 

John

[County4x4]

Well if they do pay for it let me know and I'll move onto the water!

 

When I was made redundant last year I got precisely nothing to help pay my mortgage, and very little in the way of anything else either!

 

Andy

[Smelly]

Just back from a weekend off so excuse me not linking...

 

Early on in the HB regs (on OPSI.gov.uk) there is a list of what can be paid, I think it's reg 10 but don't hold me to that. It explicitly mentions mooring fees.

 

It's widely taught that mooring but not licence fees can be paid. I think that's wrong. I've heard it said that the licence would be an ineligible service charge as it's for maintenance etc and I can understand that argument however, in law that's not what your licence is for, it's a licence to occupy the water and arguably hence the boat. A good analogy is the endless "Tax Credit" debate... are they taxation or benefit expenditure? In law they're taxation, however in the budget it's divvied up due a concession by our fair PM that meant he could continue to juggle amounts and hence lightly boil the ledger...

 

As a cc'er you'll struggle. HB is paid by an individual authority for a particular dwelling. If you move to a different LA area I think you'd find the LA arguing you were in a different dwelling hence they had no lasting liability. That's how I'd go about it.

 

If you search the forum I've posted elsewhere and there's some caselaw on the Upper Tribunal website that'll help. People other than I have linked to them from the forum. Look for the stratford decision as that's material to what you're asking.

 

If you need further advice feel free, I can draft letters up if you need...

[Phil Ambrose]

Hello,

I would like to ask the forum if anyone here has been able to attain housing benefit for living on a boat? In this case not a residential moored boat, but a boat on a roaming license? if this is possible could someone fill me in on the ins and outs please.

Another point, If it made matters easier with a local authority, would taking a winter mooring be the answer and would they pay for this?

I have taken a share on a boat, and live on a canal boat, but I am under the threat of redundancy this is why I am asking.

If anyone could help great,

Info on this subject is rather thin on the ground.

Thanks

 

John

 

I had to claim for pension credit earlier this year (got laid off) and was offered HB by my local council, they even offered to come and help me fill in the form (advantage if being old!) however I did'nt need it so declined. However I think you would need to have a permanent address.

[Smelly]

I had to claim for pension credit earlier this year (got laid off) and was offered HB by my local council, they even offered to come and help me fill in the form (advantage if being old!) however I did'nt need it so declined. However I think you would need to have a permanent address.

 

You need a correspondence address...

[tillergirl]

HB is paid the address that "you normally reside at" i e proof of bills to the address would be required all dated within the last 6 months, proof of income, proof of signing for for jobseekers etc etc.

Think the operative word is "address" ............

Edited October 5, 2009 by tillergirl

[matty40s]

Unless your local council is amazing, you will struggle to get a bean,either in mortgage support via jobseekers (Gordon Browns big announcement helped out about 43 people nationwide at the last count (all Labour activists)), or in mooring fees support. The processes are convoluted and the paperwork doesn't fit canal life. I was OOW for 6 months after redundancy and didn't get a bean support. (however, Smelly did warn me!!!!

[Smelly]

Unless your local council is amazing, you will struggle to get a bean,either in mortgage support via jobseekers (Gordon Browns big announcement helped out about 43 people nationwide at the last count (all Labour activists)), or in mooring fees support. The processes are convoluted and the paperwork doesn't fit canal life. I was OOW for 6 months after redundancy and didn't get a bean support. (however, Smelly did warn me!!!!

 

I've not kept any PMs so I'd imagine we did all this on the forum and that I'll struggle to find it.

 

HB should've been paid for mooring fees. If it wasn't when did they refuse it and why didn't you challenge it (or at least PM)

 

Mortage Interest was more complicated due to the nature of the "mortgage" but it'd still be interesting to play with it. I'd imagine that inside 6 months you weren't accepted as satisfying the qualifying period however the manner in which DWP are applying the new 13 week Q/P is at odds with what they told the Social Security Advisory Committee they were going to do. They said ALL new claimants would get 13 weeks, but then deployed it in a manner that meant anyone who, frinstance, qualified for contribution based JSA but no income based had to wait 39 weeks. That was arguably wrong and i've met a few Judges recently who agree with me, and a few colleagues across the country who spotted the SSAC report deserve more credit than I if you're watching.

[spacecactus]

In order to claim HB you need a residential mooring.

 

If you have any other type of mooring or are CCing you have a right to go to the any council you have a local connection with and register with the homless persons department.

 

If you roam the system without a permement residential mooring and have no other proprty to live in you are homless. Its like a traveller, they might have a van to live in, but without a place they can legally park it as a resident, they are in fact homless driving the streets and stopping in permitted and non permitted locations.

 

Even if you have a mooring which you live on, if it isnt a residential mooring you have NO right to be living there and therefore are homless.

 

Its like living in a squat, you might have somewhere to live, but you have no legal right to be living there, therefore can claim holessness.

 

Once you are registered homless you can then access support from the council to get housing either oe of the following options.

 

1. council flat

2. funded to move into private rented

3. hostle or Temp accoimidation.

Edited October 6, 2009 by spacecactus

[Mavs]

I am looking to move onto a houseboat in the near future. I would be renting the houseboat direct from the owner. As such I would have a tenancy agreement and pay the 'landlord' a set amount per month. I qualify for housing benefit. I have two questions relating to this situation:

 

1) Can I claim housing benefit for my rent? This is not a question of mooring or licence fees, nor mortgage payments, but regular monthly rent, payable to the landlord.

 

2) I understand I have to make sure the landlord of the boat is allowed to rent it out, although I'm not sure what exactly this means. Can anyone offer me guidance with this, ie. what situation does the landlord have to be in before they can rent their boat out. Sorry, I haven't worded that very well!

 

I had been meaning to post on this subject quite soon but decided to tag it on here when I saw the thread, if it doesn't get enough attention I hope people don't mind if I start another thread.

 

Thanks,

 

Paul

[Chris Pink]

I am looking to move onto a houseboat in the near future.

 

A lot would depend on whether it was really a 'houseboat' as defined by BW, ie does it have a houseboat license?

[NB Alnwick]

Boating is a relatively expensive hobby and it is likely to become more so. I really don't think it is a lifestyle that should be considered by anyone who, through whatever circumstances, is forced to live on state benefits.

 

As I have stated in another thread, I believe that there is a serious shortage of gainful employment in this country and an alternative approach might be to explore alternative ways of earning a living which may or may not involve living or working on a boat . . .

[carlt]

In order to claim HB you need a residential mooring.

 

If you have any other type of mooring or are CCing you have a right to go to the any council you have a local connection with and register with the homless persons department.

 

If you roam the system without a permement residential mooring and have no other proprty to live in you are homless. Its like a traveller, they might have a van to live in, but without a place they can legally park it as a resident, they are in fact homless driving the streets and stopping in permitted and non permitted locations.

 

Even if you have a mooring which you live on, if it isnt a residential mooring you have NO right to be living there and therefore are homless.

 

Its like living in a squat, you might have somewhere to live, but you have no legal right to be living there, therefore can claim holessness.

 

Once you are registered homless you can then access support from the council to get housing either oe of the following options.

 

1. council flat

2. funded to move into private rented

3. hostle or Temp accoimidation.

Is this based on any facts whatsoever, or merely an opinion?

 

You can certainly claim housing benefit, for a non-residential mooring and I know many people who do.

 

The majority of councils would far rather pay for a mooring which has an annual fee that is less than the monthly rent, they'd have to pay on a house.

Edited October 6, 2009 by carlt

[debbifiggy]

I am looking to move onto a houseboat in the near future. I would be renting the houseboat direct from the owner. As such I would have a tenancy agreement and pay the 'landlord' a set amount per month. I qualify for housing benefit. I have two questions relating to this situation:

 

1) Can I claim housing benefit for my rent? This is not a question of mooring or licence fees, nor mortgage payments, but regular monthly rent, payable to the landlord.

 

2) I understand I have to make sure the landlord of the boat is allowed to rent it out, although I'm not sure what exactly this means. Can anyone offer me guidance with this, ie. what situation does the landlord have to be in before they can rent their boat out. Sorry, I haven't worded that very well!

 

I had been meaning to post on this subject quite soon but decided to tag it on here when I saw the thread, if it doesn't get enough attention I hope people don't mind if I start another thread.

 

Thanks,

 

Paul

 

Hi Paul,

 

AFAIK you will only qualify for housing benefit if you are renting a boat on a residential mooring with a houseboat certificate. If the craft is "continuous cruising" you won't be able to claim as you won't have a residential address and won't be able to stay within the boundaries of one local authority. Boats on "leisure" moorings have occasionally in the past been able to claim housing benefit but trying to get a new case accepted is becoming very difficult without raising the planning permission issue (big can of worms). Also, it will mean that the boat you are renting is not a houseboat but a private pleasure craft that is being rented out for commercial gain by the owner/landlord and should therefore have a business licence as a hire craft if on BW waters.

 

Be very very careful before you part with any cash or sign any agreement as you could be getting yourself into more bother than it's worth. There have been a lot of cases like this recently in London and it's all ended in tears, especially after one of the companies offering long term rental of narrowboats suddenly disappeared and now appears to be a man and van hire business offering removals to Europe. Private lets are also subject to a business licence if any money is changing hands at all. If you are paying rent it's a business.

 

Best of luck and if you're not sure ask members on this forum or why not call BW and ask for advice? Not everyone at BW is "brain dead " I think one of my friends said the other day

[Mat B]

A lot would depend on whether it was really a 'houseboat' as defined by BW, ie does it have a houseboat license?

 

Or as defined by EA??

 

Or moored in waters not requiring a licence??

 

 

Boating is a relatively expensive hobby...

 

True,

 

But a relatively cheap way to own a home!

[snowman57]

HI GUYS,

ALL YOUR COMMENTS ARE VERY INTERESTING AND RESPECT TO ALL OF YOU.

FROM WHAT I CAN GATHER AFTER SOME RESEARCH AND PHONE CALLING TO BOROUGH COUNCILS IS THIS.

HB WILL PAY RENT IF THE BOAT IS MOORED IN THEIR LOCALITY, SECONDLY, THEY WILL PAY MOORING CHARGES.

THEY ALSO STIPULATED THEY WOULD CONSIDER OTHER CHARGES AS WELL?, ( VERY KIND OF THEM)!! WHATEVER THEY MAYBE.

HOWEVER, AS STATED. A BOAT MOVING AROUND THEY WON'T ENTERTAIN, A BOAT WITH A PERMENANT OR WINTER MOORING THEY WILL .

BUT "YOU" WILL NEED TO PAY THE WINTER MOORING FEE OR AT LEAST SOMETHING TO GET THE MOORING SECURED AND THEY WILL PAY THIS BACK PROPORTIONATLY THEY MAY EVEN HELP WITH YOUR BW LICENSE.

TAKE IT FROM ME, HAD THIS NEWS FROM A GOOD SOURCE AT THE LOCAL COUNCIL.

BUT YES, THERE ARE STILL ISSUES HERE AS THE "LAWS" ARE VAGUE AND INTERPRETATIONS MAY DIFFER SLIGHTLY FROM BOROUGH TO BOROUGH.

HOPE THIS HELPS, HEY GUYS RECKON I ANSWERED MY ORIGINAL QUESTION HERE!!

CHEERS

[Smelly]

Good sources at the council may be one thing, but I've been representing people through various courts in benefit, housing and debt disputes for 10 years...

 

And I still think they should pay your licence fees if you're in one spot.

 

The "Houseboat" debate is an interesting one, but in the course of researching my answer i have discovered it's an answered one, as is the planning issue see my link below. As the decision has been reported, and in considering the BWA by matter of the Ts and Cs this will stand unless HMG amend the legislation.

 

As it stands in the Social Entitlement jurisdiction "Houseboat" is undefined and we have brand spanky new authority for that. Exciting, I've found something worky and new!

 

As an aside, Judge Levenson's ace, I met him at a conference and he spoke afterward good jokes et al... top guy!

 

Mavs, regarding your landlord being "allowed" to rent it out, that's a bit ambiguous. Whether BW impart any obligation on the resident as opposed to the owner is something I'll check in a minute. A liability to pay rent arises in common law, 0nly if the lessor had no rights to let would he not be "allowed" to charge for a service rendered. Interesting question as to whether, with no trading licence, no liability would arise, my instinct says no. There is caselaw to support that but I'd worry that it'd be challenged.

 

A solution would be for landlord to charge an equivalent of the business licence as rent, then leave the liability for mooring charges to you hence attracting HB entitlement for both. As it stands, if your landlord is liable to meet the mooring charges I'd worry that it wouldn't attract HB ents for you.

 

Edit... reading between the lines of Mr Levenson's decision above, the boat was registered for leisure use so there was no trading licence yet the liability still attracted HB ents so Mavs I reckon you'll be okay (if you can avoid Debbi's long arm that is...)

Edited October 7, 2009 by Smelly

[Guest TowpathTownie]

This topic really interested me. Not that I need benefits but solely due to Smelly's responses. Very impressed with your detailed help and support! Snowman, good luck to you and I hope that you have learned what is necessary to help you survive in your immediate future. If you're near me I'd happily invite you in for a free supper - and Smelly actually!

[Smelly]

Mavs, regarding your landlord being "allowed" to rent it out, that's a bit ambiguous. Whether BW impart any obligation on the resident as opposed to the owner is something I'll check in a minute. A liability to pay rent arises in common law, 0nly if the lessor had no rights to let would he not be "allowed" to charge for a service rendered. Interesting question as to whether, with no trading licence, no liability would arise, my instinct says no. There is caselaw to support that but I'd worry that it'd be challenged.

 

I'll reserve my comments regarding separating moorings for now but leave them there.

 

Regarding the licence thing and "allowed" it seems that the '95 act refers to an "applicant" and can refuse a licence. I'd be interested to see references to their specific power to charge a trading licence for a private rental... S43 of the '62 Transport Act gives a very wide ranging power to charge what they "think fit" (that might b*gger my thoughts on the tendering scheme but I'll need to get a copy of the Dawkins decision) however I'd wonder whether a privately rented boat is "trading"...

 

looking at it, the LHA amendment regs the eligible rent or Local Housing Allowance is discrete of mooring fees... I shall consult elsewhere... Christine if your looking check rightsnet as well...

Edited October 7, 2009 by Smelly

[Smelly]

To refer back to snowman's post... S143B Social Security Contributions and Benefits Act demands you remain within the area of a specific Local Authority to qualify for HB so CCers are definitely out...

 

Mavs, I continue to convince myself that keeping the moorings separate is a good idea. The mooring fee certainly seems to be discrete of any "rent" as has been amended by the LHA...

 

I will comment further tomorrow.

[Smelly]

I'm horribly wrong... reg 12 HB regs 2006 (which have supplanted the old '87 ones) aggregates any mooring fees under "rent" by virtue of reg 2 of the same.

 

Twould be wise to ask the local council how much the Local Reference Rent is. That will likely cap the rent. Boats are excluded from the new Local Housing Allowance rules.

 

That'll teach me to do the bookwork won't it?

[Mavs]

Just a quick message to thank everyone for their help, been engrossed in finding a boat and Smelly has been particularly helpful in the PMs, so thanks for that. And apologies in not writing sooner.

 

Great bunch of people here and one day I'll hopefully be able to join in on water!

 

[spacecactus]

Twould be wise to ask the local council how much the Local Reference Rent is.

 

 

Reference rents have changed to 'Local Housing Allowance' now I think. Although the mean rent for the area would probally be assessed on an individual basis for boats.

 

HOwever if you rent from BW i would assume this would be taken as a fair rent for the area??? What else could they comparemoorings rents to.

 

When they decide on maxium housing benefit payment they look at the Mean rent for property within a specified area ie London inner south or London east central. They take this from letting agency data and up date it every month. There is no way they are doing this on moorings surely??

Edited October 13, 2009 by spacecactus

[Smelly]

Reference rents have changed to 'Local Housing Allowance' now I think. Although the mean rent for the area would probally be assessed on an individual basis for boats.

 

HOwever if you rent from BW i would assume this would be taken as a fair rent for the area??? What else could they compare moorings rents to.

 

When they decide on maxium housing benefit payment they look at the Mean rent for property within a specified area ie London inner south or London east central. They take this from letting agency data and up date it every month. There is no way they are doing this on moorings surely??

 

Mooring fees are excepted from the new LHA rules. The LRR is still the benchmark.

 

There could be an interesting debate as to how the rent is calculated; taking into account mooring fees as opposed to rents, but as, past the re-determination stage you're looking at Judicial Review proceedings which are expensive, only get Legal Aid in exceptional circumstances (and then it takes ages) and only on limited grounds then it would be easier to lump it.

[Mandy]

I get the princely sum of £1 per week housing benefit and I am in a marina which I use as my address but it is not classed as residential (because they could move me whenever they wanted to) and the council know this.