Working boats

[Hairy-Neil]

Then there were several messages of support before Hairy Neil added more anti-NBT vitriol.....

 

You might think it caustic but I stand by every word of it.

 

I think you are deliberately misleading with your comment on Satellite: “which they also briefly owned and scandalously sold to be cut in two”

 

 

......Malcolm Braine cut Satellite in two, a far from uncommon practice at that time or by him, who has since become a rightly respected restorer of historic boats – ie Cactus, Success etc.

 

As I understand it the NBT was set up with the aim of preventing this very thing happening.

 

 

More later, just got a call.....

[Speedwheel]

The situation with Satellite was more complicated than simply being sold to Malcolm but that is not my business to expand on. It didn't go into the hire trade either. It (the front end) was sold to Eric and Shelia Garner who had it for over 30 years. Rear end I don't have the fulll story.

 

He did cut about alot of boats but alot of these were done to fund the ones he restored (and many of them would have been cut up had he not of converted/modified them.

 

Success is not a good example of a resotration - it is without doubt a beautiful boat and has very high quality of work done on it but, it is in no way representative of how the boat was in its 'working days'. It is not a good example of Malcolms restoration works as it is neither owned by him nor did he do any work on it

[Hairy-Neil]

The Narrow Boat Trust is a marvelous thing and I still believe my initial response on discovering it and the fact that you could actually go on them, crew them, learn the necessary skills in running a pair and carrying cargo:– “How good is that!!!????”

 

Without the involvement of mine and other like minded persons, there would have been no NBT for you to join. My father and I were among the group that overturned the winding up motion at the 1994 AGM. You should be thanking, not vilifying me.

 

Of course, any organization consists of people from all walks of life, age groups , knowledge, skills experience etc but also of different needs, expectations and commitment. I believe this is where the occasional problems with presentation and image come from and will always do so.

 

I can't see why that matters. I was amongst the more committed members throughout my period of membership, 1994 - 2000. I had no shortage of skills and willingly made them all available to the trust.

 

Finally, I am not convinced we want our boats to look like some of the admittedly beautiful craft seen at rallies.

I'd rather see a mucky old pair of boats doing what they were designed for than a shiny static exhibition.

 

And there lies the problem. The majority are happy with the boats scruffy, and try as we might at several AGMs the likes of Pete Harrison and I were wasting our time attempting to change that consensus.

 

Lets face it, when you were a member did you spend all your time cleaning the boats?

 

I like to think they were as well turned out as they could be in the circumstances.

 

As for the future, the boats could be well presented at shows and still carry the loads they do now. The two need not conflict. The conflicts come through lack of respect for the fabric of the boats by those who just want to play at boating. Eg. The tiller stick that is dragged across the roof instead of carefully placing it down, scratching the fresh paintwork in the process. The side cloths at the back end that are worn through from being walked on when it would be as easy to step over them, not to mention the toilet/fridge and loads more similar niggles. Those members that want to boat with well presented boats move away from the trust when they see work they put in on restoration either damaged or destroyed by abuse or neglect from those members who prefer them scruffy.

 

There is also the case of the historic engine, which was of a type that had been fitted for more than half the Nuneaton's life. This was thrown away because of one man's convincing argument that the engine was knackered/obsolete/under powered. The irony was he left the trust immediatly the replacement work got under way and commissioned his own boat, to which he fitted an even older engine.

 

Dan Gereaux, how do you counter the 'conserve and restore' requirements in the trust's primary aims? Carrying cargo for the enjoyment of the members doesn't even get a mention in the constitution.

 

Stop whinging and come and give us a hand and the benefit of your knowledge and experience! As me dear old Dad used to say, “there’s them that do and them that criticize!”

 

I did my bit. It was me that spent 2 weeks of march 1996 welding up the rusty knees and donated all the materials so that the newly purchased Brighton could be moved back to base. It was also me that broke off from welding up Brighton and travelled down to Guildford at a moments notice to tackle some welding requirements found on docking Nuneaton. It was me that donated my not inconsiderable fee for three days consultancy work on Rosie & Jim's, 'The Fender Maker'. What more can I give?

[FadeToScarlet]

Rear end I don't have the fulll story.

 

http://www.workingboats.org.uk/forsale/adrastea.aspx

 

Is this it?

[Speedwheel]

http://www.workingboats.org.uk/forsale/adrastea.aspx

 

Is this it?

 

It is indeed.

[Derek R.]

Surprised they didn't call it 'Etilletas'

[pete harrison]

The situation with Satellite was more complicated than simply being sold to Malcolm but that is not my business to expand on. It didn't go into the hire trade either. It (the front end) was sold to Eric and Shelia Garner who had it for over 30 years. Rear end I don't have the fulll story.

 

Both ends of SATELLITE became 60' motor pleasure boats in 1976.

 

The original fore was fitted with a welded counter stern, a full length cabin conversion and a Parsons Merganser diesel (based on an Armstrong Siddley AS2 with a Parsons gearbox - previously fitted in ASTEROPE and possibly originally a British Transport Waterways fitment in NAUTILUS). This boat retained its historic name of SATELLITE.

 

The original stern was fitted with a welded counter stern, a full length cabin conversion and a 1949 Kelvin J2 22hp diesel (originally suplied to owners at Sandhaven on the Scottish north east coast). This boat carried the name GANYMEDE up until at least 2006 and has had several owners over the past thirty years.

[Hairy-Neil]

With regards to carrying and NBT, surely this is what these boats were designed for, and I'd rather see a mucky old pair of boats doing what they were designed for than a shiny static exhibition.

 

Finally, I am not convinced we want our boats to look like some of the admittedly beautiful craft seen at rallies.....

 

Could either of you please explain how your views fit with the NBT's core aims of, 'To conserve and restore and present to the public'.....

[mykaskin]

Could either of you please explain how your views fit with the NBT's core aims of, 'To conserve and restore and present to the public'.....

 

To expand on the one "core" aim you mentioned (my highlighting):

 

To a significant extent, the original objectives have been met: the aim nonetheless remains extant and valid, and is: "to preserve and restore narrow boats and canal craft of all descriptions for the benefit of the public".

 

The Trust is well aware of the potential educational value deriving from the proper presentation of working canal boats. It sees its main purpose to provide the public (especially but not only young people) with the opportunity to understand working canal craft by active contact with them, as far as possible while they carry out the work for which they were built. This educational role is to be available to all.

 

The rest is written here:

http://www.narrowboattrust.org.uk/thetrust.htm

 

and goes on to expand the roll of the Trust.

 

Cheers,

 

Mike

[Hairy-Neil]

To expand on the one "core" aim you mentioned (my highlighting):

 

 

 

The Trust is well aware of the potential educational value deriving from the proper presentation of working canal boats. It sees its main purpose to provide the public (especially but not only young people) with the opportunity to understand working canal craft by active contact with them, as far as possible while they carry out the work for which they were built. This educational role is to be available to all.

 

Surely the trust's job would be made easier and be attractive to a greater audience if the boats were well presented and interested members of the public made welcome.

Edited September 20, 2009 by Hairy-Neil

[Dan Gereaux]

Surely the trust's job would be made easier and be attractive to a greater audience if the boats were well presented and interested members of the public made welcome.

 

Ok Neil, you're getting boring now.

1: I am aware of and grateful for the good work you did for the Trust when you were a member and the reasons for your leaving and obvious bitterness.

2: interested members of the public ARE made welcome.

3: The boats are generally well-presented - see my recent photos.

Yes, they need a new paint job but hopefully we'll manage that this winter

I'm off again next weekend to enjoy the boats and present them as well as I can - if that's not good enough for you, I frankly don't give a damn.

I am not answering any more of your increasingly tedious anti-NBT missives.

What are you doing this weekend?

Dan

[Hairy-Neil]

A little bird recently informed me that the NBT would welcome me back on board. I took the oportunity of the Braunston boat gathering to sound out the possibilities and found nothing had changed with the boats themselves to tempt me. Your own (and Mike's) entrenched views have only served to further confirm this.

 

It's over 9 years since I parted company with the NBT and moved on long ago so don't kid yourself that my comments are fueled by bitterness. Yes, I am saddened that the boats are still 'tarred with the same old brush', but bitter? No. It would appear from other comments on here that I'm not exactly alone with my thoughts.

[stort_mark]

2: interested members of the public ARE made welcome.

 

I thought I'd pitch in when this statement was made, which it most surely was to be at some stage.

 

With all due respect, Dave, it depends if NBT members at rallys are not too busy. I joined NBT in 2007 and hoped to be able to make a contribution in various ways. As I have advised both the World Bank and governments on both tourism and World Heritage, I was hoping that this might have been of interest. After returning to the UK after 20 years away, I was aslo hoping to 'create' a circle of friends, ready-made, through NBT. Not quite Billy No Mates, but you probably catch my drift.

 

Yet on three separate events, I pitched up to meet people but other than a perfunctory handshake and a quick tour round the boats, I was simply ignored. It is actually both extremely difficult and somewhat intimidating to break into established groups; NBT are simply far worse at welcoming new people than any other group or club I have joined, although admittedly most societies are not much better at welcoming and integrating them when they do turn up.

 

I don't doubt that some new members fit right in: The Steerer mentioned one such new member who rapidly made their way to the centre of NBT's universe, but he probably had more time and ability to do just that. I have since spoken to others who feel the same way: ignored and outside the centre circle. I currently just pay the subs (I think; I may actually be overdue) and wish NBT well. That may not continue though.

 

I find it increasingly worrying, that while a great black cloud looms over the waterways, and much of the most knowledgable, passionate and committed people are pursuing battles with each other here and on the Cut. Some of the posts here have been quite incredibly childish, even given some individuals' relationships.

 

I must admit I do tend to side with Hairy Neil, having spent a wonderful weekend on the BCN with him and eight others in May. However I also feel that Roger has come here and made a good show of explaining some of the issues; even Dave - who was actually the most welcoming NBT volunteer at those events - at one stage looked ready to 'shake the hand' before drifting away angrily. Personally, I am somewhat reluctant to try too hard to volunteer, participate, or contribute with a group populated by people who are somewhat intolerant of people I happen to like, such as Hairy Neil. It just makes me uncomfortable. Sadly, I have found the sailing community (another passion) rather friendlier than the waterways community.

 

I find it curious that the two positions ('conservation' and 'cargo carrying') are considered mutually impractical. I would have thought there was room enough in any society for multiple aims to be met. Authenticity in heritage has always been an area of difficulty, but should not be allowed to drive a wedge between those with different views. Have a look at the Nara Declaration to see how multiple objectives can be achieved.

 

Meanwhile NBT and the canal world would probably benefit enormously from a bit more tolerance, a bit more forgiveness and maybe some bridge-mending. I see far bigger battles for our waterways on the horizon and a unified, cohesive community may be what is needed most. I humbly suggest we need Hairy Neil, Pete Harrison, Dave Davies and Roger (and all the others) all back on the same side. Maybe not a love-in, but some kind of meeting that involves quantities of real ale and some discussion on reconciling those different perspectives.

[mayalld]

Ok Neil, you're getting boring now.

1: I am aware of and grateful for the good work you did for the Trust when you were a member and the reasons for your leaving and obvious bitterness.

2: interested members of the public ARE made welcome.

3: The boats are generally well-presented - see my recent photos.

Yes, they need a new paint job but hopefully we'll manage that this winter

I'm off again next weekend to enjoy the boats and present them as well as I can - if that's not good enough for you, I frankly don't give a damn.

I am not answering any more of your increasingly tedious anti-NBT missives.

What are you doing this weekend?

Dan

 

The way you attack anybody who dares disagree with the way the trust is run rather proves the point that many have been making about the trust!

 

I am somewhat taken aback, having read the website, to note that the trust believes that its purpose has been "largely achieved", and that as a result you have decided on a new "policy".

 

Last time I checked, it wasn't open to the trustees of a charity to simply decide that its objectives had been achieved, and do something else instead.

 

If you believe the objectives have been achived, you should either formally amend the objectives (which will require the approval of the charity commission), or wind up the charity.

 

Going on doing just as you please whilst still keeping the mantle of a charity established for other purposes is not an option.

[Derek R.]

As a life long motorcyclist - 45yrs+ - twenty eight of which was spent despatch riding, I have a different outlook to motorcycling than most who ride to work or for pleasure at the weekends. It formed a way of life that riding for fun never did. Yet at no time did I consider myself aloof, or better than any others except perhaps in the case of experience - and I was always willing and ready to impart any that I thought might help a lesser experienced person especially when asked.

 

I am not the easiest person to approach and chat with, but strike the right chord and I don't stop. However, this exchange is becoming like cats spitting, and without noticing, those spitting loudest have not seen the sodding great Rotweiller coming round the corner with H.M. on its collar. With impending financial cuts, Waterways are going to be 'up against it', much like motorcycling is currently.

 

We are going to need all the collective support there is if our chosen lifestyles are to survive in the face of legislative and financial problems ahead.

 

Derek

[Roger t' Bodger]

I'm less able to press the flesh at public events these days, so new members are unlikely to be confronted by me but I would admit that the amount of work that active members find on their plate in keeping the Trust afloat that when it come for a public waterways event like Braunstone where the place is thronging with people it is hard to spot a new member when you are reaping the pleasure of your efforts. Also it is hard for a new member to find a NBT member who will react in a Trust 'manner' to their expectations. I have no excuses for this except to say that we are all human and small in number.

It has taken ages to piece together the past shenanigans that have led to such falling outs as no-one in the Trust wished to impart these ancient probems easily. What I can discern is that long ago, strong and motivated personalities fell out over technicalities, all a matter pf personal views - neither right or wrong in the short or long term. They have all left the Trust, some have kept their council while other ex members feel free to carry on the gripes that have no bearing on today's board members actions or beliefs. The Trust reflects the current member's views and interests, the only way to influence the direction of the Trust is to be a member and care enough to serve on the board. Sniping from outside with a dated/tainted viewpoint is just not cricket, sir.

 

I really grieves me that new members have been put off by the lack of a specific smiley membership secretary or a instructor with all the charm of a bilious Sergeant Major. When the boats are on show the preoccupied cliquey manner of some NBT members can be hard on gentle souls (like me) but sadly that's life! If you want it, go for it! I care greatly for people to experience what the NBT can offer. Hairy's accounts of his trips and those of his daughter's show that they had a great time while responsible for moving the boats around the system in the 1990's the fact that other members, - long gone, should still attract ire upon the Trust is sad.

 

As my boating days are over, I contribute with my films that hopefully convey the experience of a minor crew member and the Steerer Mag which both strive to show that we are forward thinking and have a life.