Greaves Engines.

[riverwolf]

In the Beta JD3 Classic Tug Engine thread there was mention of the suitability of the Greaves engines for narrow boats,i have since then received the following information from Phil Lizius at Longboat Engineering and include it here with his blessing in the hope it might prove helpful to others seeking a traditional looking engine at what seems a reasonable price,Phil writes as follows ," Please find attached the dimensional details for the Greaves 2YWM and 3YWM engines. The dry weight of the 2YWM is 327kg and for the 3YWM it would be 402kg. You would need to add approx 150kg for the gearbox and adaptor plate, assuming that you went for the PRM260 gearbox. Other gearbox options would vary.

2YWM The overall length of the standard engine, fitted with a PRM 260 gearbox is 48.25 inches from the gearbox flange to the end of the crankshaft extension. If the raised hand start is fitted an additional 7 inches is required to allow for removal of the starting handle. If hand start is not required and space is at a premium, the front crankshaft extension can be shortened by 5 inches, provided that a second alternator is not required.

3YWM. With all the above dimensions you would have to allow for a additional 7.5 inches for the extra cylinder. The PRM 260 gearbox is still within capacity but the PRM500 might be considered to give a better safety margin. This would add approx 5 inches to the overall length and approx 30 kg to the weight.

 

My thoughts on engines, narrowboats and other related matters.

With a 50ft by 7ft hull of conventional narrowboat design, the 2YWM will provide sufficient 'power' to drive the boat against all but the most serious of river 'flood' conditions. Under such conditions, you probably will be prevented from navigating by the Authorities. The constraints will be the size and design of the propeller fitted to the boat. In an ideal world, the 2YWM should 'throw' a 28 inch x 24 inch propeller. This would require a draught of 34 or preferably 36 inches. This is obviously not practical on a boat used mainly on the canals. The compromise position, is to fit a 22 x 17 inch prop, which would give a draught of 26 or 28 inches. This may result in reduced performance on fast flowing rivers but in practice this compromise works reasonably well in all but the most serious 'flood' conditions. Fitting a larger engine, such as the 3YWM does not resolve this basic problem but has other implications such as the engine having to 'idle' for long periods and failing to reach full operating temperature. In all, I think that the 2YWM will be more than adequate.

In an ideal world, the 2YWM would require a 5ft engine room and the 3YWM 5ft 6". This allows space for easy maintenance but can be reduced at the expense of this ease of maintenance.

 

At the moment, I have only a re-built 2YWM in stock and this is spoken for. I am waiting to hear from the Factory regarding delivery and current prices but they are notoriously slow to respond. I would estimate that a new unit, with PRM 260 gearbox will retail at about £10,500, which will carry a Manufactures 1 year warranty and a further, restricted 1 years warranty from Ourselves. "

[PhilR]

28 X 24 prop - are you sure of that? That sounds way overpropped.

[soldthehouse]

28 X 24 prop - are you sure of that? That sounds way overpropped.

is the first measurement the actual diameter or does it represent some mythical dimension i,m never sure thanks

[charles123]

As was mentioned in the original thread the longboat web site is years out of date. If the price is circa £10k is much higher than I expected, that puts this engine in the price range of a 2LW, you will pay more for a 2LW but its worth checking out the price to understand the difference. I could have told you this but I am at least 6 months from starting searching for a 2 cylinder vintage engine for my own project. Alternatively search the internet for the makers in India and import one. I have tried this but ran out of interest. There are plenty of 1 cylinder, possibly 2 cylinder new built Lister's used as industrial engines or pumps but would need marinising

 

Charles

[PhilR]

is the first measurement the actual diameter or does it represent some mythical dimension i,m never sure thanks

 

The first measurement is the diameter ( in inches). It is the 2nd measurement which is clouded in black magic ;-)

The 2nd measurement (the pitch) is the theoretical distance that the prop will screw itself through the water on one revolution.

 

The magic art is in calculating the efficiency, blade area etc - a task best left to propellor experts IMHO.

[andywatson]

As already posted, for £10k you are close to the price of a 2LW from Walshs, Cotes Park Commercials and others.

 

Despite Gardners not being currently in production I predict that due to their use in many other applications

(marine, vehicle, showman's, mining) spares will remain available for a long time.

-Walshs and Gardner-Enthusiast seem to be regularly increasing their range of manufactured parts.

 

Equally importantly for similar reasons the service and support expertise is widely available.

-I get service support from a chap who trained on Gardner engined mine locomotives, subsequently worked for the county council transport dept and who now runs a vintage lorry.

Edited August 4, 2009 by andywatson

[RLWP]

You would need to add approx 150kg for the gearbox and adaptor plate, assuming that you went for the PRM260 gearbox.

 

According to the Newage site the PRM 260 weighs about a third of that. I wonder what the rest is for?

 

Richard

[churchward]

As already posted, for £10k you are close to the price of a 2LW from Walshs, Cotes Park Commercials and others.

 

Despite Gardners not being currently in production I predict that due to their use in many other applications

( marine, vehicle, showman's, mining) spares will remain available for a long time.

 

Equally importantly for similar reasons the service and support expertise is widely available.

Given that I have a soft spot for Gardner engines (although more specifically 3 cylinder ones) I would go for one of them at that kind of money.

[charles123]

As already posted, for £10k you are close to the price of a 2LW from Walshs, Cotes Park Commercials and others.

 

Despite Gardners not being currently in production I predict that due to their use in many other applications

( marine, vehicle, showman's, mining) spares will remain available for a long time.

 

Equally importantly for similar reasons the service and support expertise is widely available.

 

other 2lw suppliers

 

marine power services

 

http://www.marinepowerservices.co.uk/engines.htm

 

tangent engineering

 

http://www.tangent-research.com/

 

norton canes

 

http://www.nortoncanesboatbuilders.co.uk/b...tails.asp?id=10

 

etc etc

 

Charles

[nb Innisfree]

The first measurement is the diameter ( in inches). It is the 2nd measurement which is clouded in black magic ;-)

The 2nd measurement (the pitch) is the theoretical distance that the prop will screw itself through the water on one revolution.

 

The magic art is in calculating the efficiency, blade area etc - a task best left to propellor experts IMHO.

 

Basically increased blade area compensates for a smaller diameter. Blade area is kept the same whatever the dia. AFAIK

[NB Alnwick]

Basically increased blade area compensates for a smaller diameter. Blade area is kept the same whatever the dia. AFAIK

 

I don't quite follow the rationale that says a 28" dia. prop requires a draught of over 34" - 'Alnwick' had a 29" dia. prop when built and, at that time, the draught was just 33" and 'Alnwick' has got quite a hefty skeg . . .

Edited August 3, 2009 by NB Alnwick

[Proper Job]

I don't quite follow the rationale that says a 28" dia. prop requires a draught of over 34" - 'Alnwick' had a 29" dia. prop when built and, at that time, the draught was just 33" and 'Alnwick' has got quite a hefty skeg . . .

I think he was applying a 10% clearance (above and below) for the 28" prop?

 

I'm presuming the PRM 260 is a 2:1 reduction, not the 3:1

 

Ocelot has a currently has a 26x12. I think she's well under propped and am looking to either have the pitch increased to around 15 or source a replacement prop.

 

The baseline calcs for my set up (JP3, prm 260, 2:1 reduction), gives a huge prop (IIRC 28x20), obviously a compromise has been made.

[sociable_hermit]

Would a 3-blade prop help?