Attacked on the River Avon

[Breals]

I totally agree with that! The perception of young people often peddled by the media seems to cause a totally unnecessary feeling of aggravation towards them. And kids are treated with a great deal intolerance generally. The other day some kids playing football in the park were being berated by an elderly gent swearing at them and waving his stick aggressively because they were ignoring the 'no ball games' sign. Why was he doing this? The kids were nice kids and were causing no problems other than a bit of noise and the odd stray ball. Now they have been moved on, and are probably tucked away indoors playing ultraviolent video games and developing childhood obesity.

 

When I was a kid we used to throw small pebbles off a bridge at passing trains - disgraceful behaviour but it wasn't in malice, we just thought it was funny. I'm sure kids have always gone through phases of antisocial behaviour, and people have always gone on about it as if civilsation is coming to an end. Think its worse now with the media though.

 

I'm glad there was no damage caused in this case.

[maffi mushkila]

Hi Maffi / Clint Eastwood / Harry Callaghan

 

  So this is what goes on in your analytical brain. BTW is it a 45 Magnum?

 

Do suppositories come in different sizes?: lol :

[maffi mushkila]

...............and as for your suggestion Maffi - I would keep very quiet,  that sort of observation could cause you to be arrested and charged for inciting violence.

 

I fail to see how a suppository could be interpreted as inciting violence, incitement to a mega dump maybe. Do they have humour in your part of the country.

 

Smile once in a while it will reduce your misery

[maffi mushkila]

No COL, Some boaters have complained, others will confront the young people themselves about their behaviour. BW have no legal jurisdiction over acts of hostility to wards members of the public so what will they be making a judgement about, and if they do what can the legally do about it. These sort of incidents happen all the time all over the country not just on the canals, and if more adults had the courage or conviction to challenge young people who behave in an anti social; manner wherever it happens, rather than turn away and moan to someone else, then maybe it wouldn't happen quite so frequently.

 

David did you take the trouble to look at the link I gave for the TOWPATH TALK site.

 

It would appear that BW are collating the incidents and then informing the police, between them and others they are having an effect in hi activity areas.

 

I have experienced similar situations on and off the canal and have never felt any worries about dealing with it myself in a non-aggressive manner and I have never been attacked as a consequence. The trouble is that too many adults are frightened of what are usually children, desperately seeking attention from adults who consistently ignore them. I would be very interested to know how many contributors to the anti vandal brigade who are so vocal on this forum, have ever done anything constructive to help develop the lives of these often deprived youngsters.

 

A child with a brick, irrespective of upbringing, is a thug.

 

Yes I have had experience of developing the lives of children, it's called parenting. My four would never have dared to behave in such a manner.

 

If some parents cannot do what they are supposed to do then might I suggest that neutering may be the way to go.

 

I didn't deprive these 'children' but I and the rest of you are expected to pay for the damage they cause.

[Jon]

You would certainly have grounds to report the incident to the police, on 999 if you feel threatend enough. No one should be put in fear of their safety when involved in any activity.

 

To those who say kids will be kids, and we should turn a blind eye, where do you draw the line? When the stone breaks a window? When a stone hit someone in the eye causing injury?

 

In the above situation, anyone throwing the stones could be arrested under Sec 4a of the Public Order Act for a start, and I would strongly recommend that any boater faces with being pelted by stones from a group of 12 to 14 youngsters should either at the time dial 999 and ask for police attendance (only where you need police immediately to prevent injury/damage or catch the offenders) or if you or your property are in no danger, call it in on the local police none-emergency number. If they don't know about it, they can't deal with it.

 

I would strongly suggest that you don't approach any group of youths because a) your personal safety could be at risk and you leave yourselves open to all manner of accusations.

 

Jon

[Carrie]

Knowing why these children behave in the way they do helps us understand their actions, but doesn't then make it alright. These kids have to learn to live in the public world if they are ever to be peaceful, happy adults (and let's face it, most adults DON'T go around chucking stones, so they get there in the end!). I agree with Maffi that we shouldn't have to suffer for their lack of parental guidance and should help these kids by 'dobbin' 'em in' (telling the police!).

[David Schweizer]

I seem to be under attack here for allegedly saying something I did not say. I used the word "challenge" not "retaliate" Sam, which has a totally different meaning. When I say I would challenge their behavior that is what I mean, I would say something like " do you really think it is a sensible thing to do to throw stones?" followed by something like " what would you do if one of those stones hit me in the eye and blinded me, and you got arrested for injuring me? Does that sound like retaliation, or is it an Adult facing up to young people who are acting irresponsibly. I have found that this approach usually produces one of two responses. They either go completely silent and dissapear, or they engage in conversation, often quite vocally foul but nevertheless it is dialogue. I personally have never had any difficulty relating to Young People, and believe it is an attitude thing not an age thing. And by the way Sam, I am old enough to be your Grandfather.

 

Jon I respect your knowledge of the law, but as you will find once your training is over, and as John Orentas has already suggested, if the police responded to every little disturbance that is reported to them they would have no time left to engage in all the other activities that are required of them. They do not respond to far more serious incidents where I live, there aren't enough of them and they are too far away. I spent thirty years of my adult life working as a professional Youth and Community Worker and Officer, approaching Young people was part of my job and sometimes that was in situations where there was a potential for injury to myself. I have seen off gangs of Drunken Youths trying to attack the Centre, I have disarmed indivuals carrying knives, I have broken up numerous fights, and with a colleague I once even removed a violent young man from attacking a Police Officer on the pavement outside the Centre. I have no illusions about Young People and how they can behave, but unlike many adults I do not hate them and I am not frightened by them.

 

And to answer your point Len - yes I recognise my words, and I have to admit that the only threats of violence I have received on the canals has been from Fishermen. I have been personally attacked by a fisherman on the K&A for "disturbing the water" (and no I didn't bother to report that to the Police), and I have witnessed a violent attack on another boater by a fisherman beacause the boater had the audacity to try and tie his boat up where the fisherman was sitting on the bollards at a lock. (the Police were called on that occassion and the fisherman was arrested )I have also recieved far more foul mouthed abuse from fishermen than have ever recieved from Young people. but we weren't talking about fishermen.

 

I realise that I am probably in a minority of one on this issue, but I still think that there are a lot of grumpy adults out there who hate Young People and behave antagonisticly towards them rather than try to improves the situation.

Edited August 20, 2005 by David Schweizer

[Richard Bustens]

Something very wrong hear yet again i find myself agreeing with maffi.

[maffi mushkila]

And by the way Sam, I am old enough to be your Grandfather.

That's not difficult in Sam's case a lot of us are.

 

.......................but I still think that there are a lot of grumpy adults out there who hate Young People and behave antagonistically to wards them rather than try to improves the situation.

 

I wouldn't say 'grumpy old people hate kids' they are just tired of the same old stuff.

 

My grandfather took a belt to my father who was 30 because he considered that what he was doing was socially unacceptable (pitching pennies). My older brother witnessed this. Now I am not saying this was the right thing to do, my grandfather being a vicious brute of a bastard, but the point is that parents used to exercise control over their offspring well past their teens. These days a lot never exercise any control past potty training

 

I have some veggie type friends that live on the better side of town. A well to do couple who have never lifted a finger to their lad in anger, preferring to go the way of discussion and non-violent punishment. What a wonderful couple you might think and you would be right. But the lad was on the verge of being expelled from school, in the head teachers own words, "he is the most violent, disruptive child it has ever been my displeasure to meet". He was 6.

 

I dislike the lad that lives in the first house down the next street because he thought it was fun to put a hole in the liner of my pond just days after I completed it. He thought it was fun to cover my new car in mud just minutes after I washed it. He saw nothing wrong with kicking down my fence just because he didn't want to go to school. His father though a bit of a hard line disciplinarian, was under wifey's thumb, she wouldn't let him even raise his voice. The kid is an uneducated (he hasn't been to school in 6 years) moronic menace that should probably be a candidate for boot camp. When he goes to family meetings with Social Services he runs the show. Personally I would put him away where he can't do any harm.

 

No I wouldn't say 'grumpy old people hate kids' they/we are just tired of the same old stuff.

Edited August 23, 2005 by maffi mushkila

[Sir Nibble]

This is my "beat". Which lock are we talking about here? First up from Bristol is Needham lock and first on the BW section is Hanham, or do you mean the lowest lock on the Widcombe (Bath) flight where the river joins the canal? there is a small piece of ground to one side of the bottom of the lock where the n'ere do wells congregate though I have never had trouble there myself. The city of bath lives on its visitors, if this is where it was then report it.

[Cris P]

Hi Snibble, we've probably waved a greeting before now.

 

It's the lock before the Widcombe flight - Weston lock ? Where the Bristol to Bath cycle track meets the towpath. It was reported to the Police and BW, at the time, I'm told. I'd say it was an unusual event for Bath, though the path into town along the river can be dangerous. I've been attacked along there at night.

 

The drunks at Widcombe never seem too troublesome, though they veer from fairly genial to potentially hostile, depending on quantities and substances ingested.

 

Just for the record, I've done youth work, and am a comparatively young 32. Make of that what you will.

[Sir Nibble]

To wade into the sociological debate, my wife has an MA in the subject and I find myself getting educated by osmosis. Both she and I grew up on council estates, we,ve done all the petty crime/drugs stuff so she not only knows her stuff academically but we are both "in the culture" as it were. My opinion is that no-one ever does "wrong" by their own standards without remorse. How do these kids come to a state where their personal moral standards allow for this behaviour to be morally accaptable in their eyes? They must see us as part of some kind of enemy deserving of retaliation, thats retaliation, not attack even the kind of person for whome a night out isn't complete without pounding some harmless dupe to a pulp, has to convince at least himself that the victim asked for it. What we need is to know what they imagine us to be, or be doing. I understand that there may be no coherent answer.

You looking at me?

Hi Chris, gimme a boat name.

[bottle]

No insult to any one but al this 'mumbo babble' about what they think is rubbish.

 

They do not think and the simple reason is their parents and grandparents did not think either.

 

No one is born a yob they become one owing to their circumstances and those circumstances are lack of parental control and training in the correct way to act in the world.

 

Any person not behaving in an acceptable manner should have all rights removed, any commitment of a crime should remove any human rights that they think they have.

[Carrie]

No one is born a yob they become one owing to their circumstances and those circumstances are lack of parental control and training in the correct way to act in the world.

 

I agree. The poor kids can't be blamed for being born to homes with parents who don't themselves understand how to be parents. We all have to live with the consequences, so I think it falls to all of us to try and gently show kids the right way to be sociable adults. If the situation is non-threatening, I reckon that means kind reasoning and diffusing the situation. If it's a violent circumstance, then it's probably better to let the cops deal with it. I'm a teacher and see most 'tricky situations' around me being diffused through calm and humour.

[maffi mushkila]

Ah the sociology degree a bigger blight on the community than the problems society has.

[Big COL]

No insult to any one but al this 'mumbo babble' about what they think is rubbish.

 

They do not think and the simple reason is their parents and grandparents did not think either.

 

No one is born a yob they become one owing to their circumstances and those circumstances are lack of parental control and training in the correct way to act in the world.

 

Any person not behaving in an acceptable manner should have all rights removed, any commitment of a crime should remove any human rights that they think they have.

28556[/snapback]

 

Hi Bottle

 

Behaving in an acceptable manner.

Three years ago I was walking home from our local country pub at around midnight and a car passed me and stopped,a guy got out of the car and came to wards me, I was thinking he was going to ask for directions I approached him as soon I was within arms reach he grabbed me and threw me up against the car, his exact words were we are going to have you you old c--t it transpired that there was another one getting out of the car.

Unfortunately for them they did not know the nature of the beast they were dealing with, and both of them received a severe beating so much so that they will think twice the next time they see a white haired guy walking home on his own looking like easy prey for their kicks.

I am not in the least bit proud of this, in fact it's a very sad state of affairs when you can not walk alone in a rural area regardless of the time of day. As far as I was concerned he had manhandled me and made his intentions clear, to me it was a situation of self defence, the fact that I can look after myself doesn't make my actions right, but in this situation I considered myself to be acting in an acceptable manner by my standards. My father taught me never to start trouble, but know how to handle it if you need to, in this situation I think I handled it correctly. You may disagree.

[bottle]

Hi Big Col

 

They behaved unacceptably, you behaved in an acceptable way in the fact you were threatened and defended your self.

 

This is not a double standard defence of oneself is not unacceptable but being put in that situation was.

[rayman]

I was brought on a council estate,still here. I was brought up with "proper parenting" but, ended up with the wrong crew at 14-15yrs old, at 16 1 ended up in a detention centre (boot camp) that DID put me back on the right track, Ive seen childhood from all sides and truly believe that severe punishment needs to be allocated to those deserving it.Way too much mollycodling with todays youth.

[bottle]

I too was raised on a council estate by good parents, I was also a 'latch key kid' but never got into trouble (thankfully).

 

This may be a ramble but here it is

 

At school assembly all classes sat in there group and year.

 

We were all graded by apparent/examined intelligence.

 

It could be seen by the dress of each child the group they were in: Grade A total school uniform. Grade A1 majority in uniform. Grade B less in uniform. Grade G no one in uniform

 

The above was confirmed, at parent evenings, by the attendance in the same ratio by the parents. Lower grade, lower parent attendance.

If an interest is not taken with a child then that child become disinterested and on with the cycle.

 

 

Sorry

[David Schweizer]

I agree. The poor kids can't be blamed for being born to homes with parents who don't themselves understand how to be parents. We all have to live with the consequences, so I think it falls to all of us to try and gently show kids the right way to be sociable adults. If the situation is non-threatening, I reckon that means kind reasoning and diffusing the situation. If it's a violent circumstance, then it's probably better to let the cops deal with it. I'm a teacher and see most 'tricky situations' around me being diffused through calm and humour.

28559[/snapback]

Thank God, there is another voice of reason on this site. I agree with you Carrie, and your approach is exactly the same as the one I have been advocating. But be warned, you now risk being pilloried by some people on this site for expressing any sort of support for Young People. What I find very disturbing is the level of agression demonstarted by some people, who clearly are unable to recognise similar traits in themselves to those in the Young people they are criticising. What was the phrase about a speck of dust and a plank of wood?

[g0n]

I'm put in mind of an old "Not the 9 o'clock News" sketch:

 

(Stereotypical social worker): "Look, I know these kids. I know their problems, I know their families, I know their communities, and there is only one solution to the problems they face. We should cut off their ghoulies."

 

Sorry, but I thought a little levity was required ;-)

 

I wrote that from memory BTW, so apologies if the transcript is inaccurate.

[maffi mushkila]

Thank God, there is another voice of reason on this site. I agree with you Carrie, and your approach is exactly the same as the one I have been advocating. But be warned, you now risk being pilloried by some people on this site for expressing any sort of support for Young People.  What I find very disturbing is the level of agression demonstarted by some people, who clearly are unable to recognise similar traits in themselves to those in the Young people they are criticising.  What was the phrase about a speck of dust and a plank of wood?

 

Contrary to what you may think of me David I do not dislike young people.

 

However, I have worked hard for what I have and what I have achieved in my life. I have made commitments that most people would shy away from. Indeed I am working under conditions that 99% of people in the UK would find totally unacceptable. Not to mention the life threatening danger that living in Riyadh brings with it. You may remember the beheadings last year and the Brit that was shot in a car park (at the top of the road where I live) even Bob Scoggings who was shot while he was putting his car in his garage. I hate the idea but I carry a handgun on the 90 mile journey to work every day and even when I go shopping, you never know when it is your turn.

 

If, when I get back to the UK, any one tries to take or damage what I have spent (and risked) my life working for, then I am sorry but he, or she, will have to accept that I am not going to let them get away with it. Actions have to be answered for. My boat will be my home and I will defend it in what ever manner I see fit. As long as I can justify the actions I take then the law is with me.

 

I wonder if you have ever stared at the sharp end of a broken bottle in the hands of some moron who is intent on making you look like an AA road map, well I have and no one will ever make me feel like that again. If you come on my boat with evil intent don't expect me to talk.

Edited August 23, 2005 by maffi mushkila

[Carrie]

Ha! Very good, qOn.

Thanks for the warning David - I shall try my 'calm and humour' approach if harassed by anyone here! Failing that, I'll push 'em in with me boat hook next time I'm passing.

[Carrie]

Oops sorry Maffi. You posted your very serious point before I could get my lightweight one in. I too would defend my home (up to a point) and realise what a different perspective you must have from your experiences.

[maffi mushkila]

Oops sorry Maffi. You posted your very serious point before I could get my lightweight one in. I too would defend my home (up to a point) and realise what a different perspective you must have from your experiences.

 

Thanks, but I really am just a happy-go-lucky kinda guy, where I am and what I have to do to get through the day disappear in a twinkle each time I land at LHR Next time will be the last time whether I am walking or lying down in a box.

Edited August 23, 2005 by maffi mushkila