Inverter

[Mary 1]

Hi all, I think I am being fobbed off here, the co we have bought the boat from, are having to fit an Inverter as there was one in the sales description, which turned out to be a battery charger.

So they have found the elec from a shore line is fitted in the bow, with the batts at the stern, and suggested that it needs re newing from the stern to include a fuse box as there is not one. This said the want to fit a Stirling inverter 1800 watt, not a pure sine wave but one of the half and half jobs, sorry I am not the tech minded, all for the sum of £575. I only need to run my lap top and a DVD and TV. They were going to fit an inverter with just crock clips, a cheap bog standard unit, to get them round the miss rep add. What do I do, help required from the fairer sex p l e a s e.

Mary1

[steelaway]

Hi all, I think I am being fobbed off here, the co we have bought the boat from, are having to fit an Inverter as there was one in the sales description, which turned out to be a battery charger.

So they have found the elec from a shore line is fitted in the bow, with the batts at the stern, and suggested that it needs re newing from the stern to include a fuse box as there is not one. This said the want to fit a Stirling inverter 1800 watt, not a pure sine wave but one of the half and half jobs, sorry I am not the tech minded, all for the sum of £575. I only need to run my lap top and a DVD and TV. They were going to fit an inverter with just crock clips, a cheap bog standard unit, to get them round the miss rep add. What do I do, help required from the fairer sex p l e a s e.

Mary1

 

Hi Mary

 

The Sterling inverter is perfectly OK and having one will increase the value of the boat.Sterling

It need to be connected to the battery's permanently by the leads supplied and must have a large fuse installed(can't remember the size) in the + lead

This will also need a small fuse board see -Fuse board

£575 for all this seems like a OK price as long as it a 'profesional job'

 

Alex

[sueb]

Hi all, I think I am being fobbed off here, the co we have bought the boat from, are having to fit an Inverter as there was one in the sales description, which turned out to be a battery charger.

So they have found the elec from a shore line is fitted in the bow, with the batts at the stern, and suggested that it needs re newing from the stern to include a fuse box as there is not one. This said the want to fit a Stirling inverter 1800 watt, not a pure sine wave but one of the half and half jobs, sorry I am not the tech minded, all for the sum of £575. I only need to run my lap top and a DVD and TV. They were going to fit an inverter with just crock clips, a cheap bog standard unit, to get them round the miss rep add. What do I do, help required from the fairer sex p l e a s e.

Mary1

No help about the inverter but I run my laptop on 12v I also use it as my TV and dvd so you don't need 240v for this.

Sue

[chris w]

Hi all, I think I am being fobbed off here, the co we have bought the boat from, are having to fit an Inverter as there was one in the sales description, which turned out to be a battery charger.

So they have found the elec from a shore line is fitted in the bow, with the batts at the stern, and suggested that it needs re newing from the stern to include a fuse box as there is not one. This said the want to fit a Stirling inverter 1800 watt, not a pure sine wave but one of the half and half jobs, sorry I am not the tech minded, all for the sum of £575. I only need to run my lap top and a DVD and TV. They were going to fit an inverter with just crock clips, a cheap bog standard unit, to get them round the miss rep add. What do I do, help required from the fairer sex p l e a s e.

Mary1

My thoughts:

 

1. The Sterling is a good unit as Alex rightly said. It's normal retail cost is around £250. However, since you are "owed" an inverter you could argue that you shouldn't be paying for it. It's not clear whether the type of inverter was specified in any way? If you are only going to run the TV, DVD and laptop, then a 500W inverter (not a pure sinewave type) would be fine. This, for sure you should demand free-of-charge.

 

2. The fact that the shoreline comes in at the bow and (presumably) runs to the stern, is a red herring. So what? There will be no significant voltage drop on a mains cable over that distance.

 

3. If they mean a "fusebox" in the shoreline, that is true but you only need one RCD (an earth leakage device) and one circuit breaker. The panel that Alex suggested would be great (£150) and is usually known as an "AC distribution panel".

 

4. They must NOT fit the inverter via crock clips. That would be very dangerous and they are cowboys if they even suggested it.

 

5. The price is outrageous for just fitting an AC fusebox. They are doing this to recoup the money (and more) that they "owe" you for the missing inverter. Remember that the fitting of the inverter should be free as they owe you an inverter (fitted and working) anyway.

 

6. It would take a qualified electrician about 30 minutes to fit the AC distribution panel (fusebox), let's even say an hour, so £40 tops.

 

7. I can understand they might want to charge you something for the 1800W inverter but, whatever it is, you need to deduct the cost of a, say, 500W inverter which will be around £100-£150 which they owe you anyway at least.

 

8. The inverter MUST have a fuse included at THEIR cost. A 500W inverter should have about a 60-70 amp fuse fitted and an 1800W inverter about a 250-300 amp fuse fitted.

 

Bottom line is that they are ripping you off big time. I would be inclined to get them to supply and fit the inverter (free-of-charge) and ask around for another boat electrician to fit the fusebox.

 

Chris

Edited April 4, 2009 by chris w

[Mary 1]

My thoughts:

 

1. The Sterling is a good unit as Alex rightly said. It's normal retail cost is around £250. However, since you are "owed" an inverter you could argue that you shouldn't be paying for it. It's not clear whether the type of inverter was specified in any way? If you are only going to run the TV, DVD and laptop, then a 500W inverter (not a pure sinewave type) would be fine. This, for sure you should demand free-of-charge.

 

2. The fact that the shoreline comes in at the bow and (presumably) runs to the stern, is a red herring. So what? There will be no significant voltage drop on a mains cable over that distance.

 

3. If they mean a "fusebox" in the shoreline, that is true but you only need one RCD (an earth leakage device) and one circuit breaker. The panel that Alex suggested would be great (£150) and is usually known as an "AC distribution panel".

 

4. They must NOT fit the inverter via crock clips. That would be very dangerous and they are cowboys if they even suggested it.

 

5. The price is outrageous for just fitting an AC fusebox. They are doing this to recoup the money (and more) that they "owe" you for the missing inverter. Remember that the fitting of the inverter should be free as they owe you an inverter (fitted and working) anyway.

 

6. It would take a qualified electrician about 30 minutes to fit the AC distribution panel (fusebox), let's even say an hour, so £40 tops.

 

7. I can understand they might want to charge you something for the 1800W inverter but, whatever it is, you need to deduct the cost of a, say, 500W inverter which will be around £100-£150 which they owe you anyway at least.

 

8. The inverter MUST have a fuse included at THEIR cost. A 500W inverter should have about a 60-70 amp fuse fitted and an 1800W inverter about a 250-300 amp fuse fitted.

 

Bottom line is that they are ripping you off big time. I would be inclined to get them to supply and fit the inverter (free-of-charge) and ask around for another boat electrician to fit the fusebox.

 

Chris

Thank you so much for your expert advise Chris, I will now write by email, as its less embarrassing then by phone to the New used boat co, it does say a name 'mastervolt for the Inverter. thank you again, I have with held £1000 from the sale price for this boat too, so it will be a bit of lee there for me too.

Mary 1

[david and julie]

Thank you so much for your expert advise Chris, I will now write by email, as its less embarrassing then by phone to the New used boat co, it does say a name 'mastervolt for the Inverter. thank you again, I have with held £1000 from the sale price for this boat too, so it will be a bit of lee there for me too.

Mary 1

Mary there's nothing wrong with a Sterling, but if it says Mastervolt then insist on the Mastervolt - they're probably twice the price.

 

If it says it should be fitted, then it's fair to assume that means fitted and working - safely. I don't think you should have to pay for anything including the fitting of an RCD.

 

A reasonable approach may be to say you will accept the Sterling as long as they fit the RCD too - FOC.

Edited April 4, 2009 by david and julie

[david and julie]

I've been giving this a bit more thought and it isn't clear whether this boat even has a ring main fitted. We are all assuming it does but it may well be that the shoreline socket is for the charger only and everything runs from 12V. It may also be the case that the charger is wrongly fitted at the bow - hence the brokers comment - he may be talking about DC volt drop rather than AC.

 

I think we need a fuller description of what Mary actually has.

 

As regards using as Sterling instead of a Mastervolt - I can't remember - but do Mastervolt make MSW inverters?

[steelaway]

Hi Mary

 

The Sterling inverter is perfectly OK and having one will increase the value of the boat.Sterling

It need to be connected to the battery's permanently by the leads supplied and must have a large fuse installed(can't remember the size) in the + lead

This will also need a small fuse board see -Fuse board

£575 for all this seems like a OK price as long as it a 'profesional job'

 

Alex

 

 

Hi

 

I assumed the £575 was for supplying and fitting a new inverter and fuse board. (must learn to read the bloody posts properly)

 

He is responsible for supplying a boat, that if it should have 240V on it , it must be to the BSS standard.

I feel that if he is selling a boat that, with just a land line supply must have a at least a fuse board to make it safe and to BSS

He obviously didn't inspect this boat properly or he would have noticed it was not correctly wired for 240V - ignoring the lack of an inverter.

It does now seem he his trying to get you to pay for his oversight.

Any way you have an indication of the prices for the equipment.

Anything less than this spec should be cheaper.

I would estimate fitting an inverter with an inline fuse and a 240V fuse board would take less than 3 hours - £100 tops

 

Alex

[chris w]

I would estimate fitting an inverter with an inline fuse and a 240V fuse board would take less than 3 hours - £100 tops

 

Alex

But Mary shouldn't be paying for the installation of the inverter as the boat is supposed to have one already. You make a good point about the BSS. If it has a BSS then you should be able to rely on the fact that the boat is to BSS standards. That includes the AC panel.

 

Chris

[oggie]

My thoughts:

 

1. The Sterling is a good unit as Alex rightly said. It's normal retail cost is around £250. However, since you are "owed" an inverter you could argue that you shouldn't be paying for it. It's not clear whether the type of inverter was specified in any way? If you are only going to run the TV, DVD and laptop, then a 500W inverter (not a pure sinewave type) would be fine. This, for sure you should demand free-of-charge.

 

2. The fact that the shoreline comes in at the bow and (presumably) runs to the stern, is a red herring. So what? There will be no significant voltage drop on a mains cable over that distance.

 

3. If they mean a "fusebox" in the shoreline, that is true but you only need one RCD (an earth leakage device) and one circuit breaker. The panel that Alex suggested would be great (£150) and is usually known as an "AC distribution panel".

 

4. They must NOT fit the inverter via crock clips. That would be very dangerous and they are cowboys if they even suggested it.

 

5. The price is outrageous for just fitting an AC fusebox. They are doing this to recoup the money (and more) that they "owe" you for the missing inverter. Remember that the fitting of the inverter should be free as they owe you an inverter (fitted and working) anyway.

 

6. It would take a qualified electrician about 30 minutes to fit the AC distribution panel (fusebox), let's even say an hour, so £40 tops.

 

7. I can understand they might want to charge you something for the 1800W inverter but, whatever it is, you need to deduct the cost of a, say, 500W inverter which will be around £100-£150 which they owe you anyway at least.

 

8. The inverter MUST have a fuse included at THEIR cost. A 500W inverter should have about a 60-70 amp fuse fitted and an 1800W inverter about a 250-300 amp fuse fitted.

 

Bottom line is that they are ripping you off big time. I would be inclined to get them to supply and fit the inverter (free-of-charge) and ask around for another boat electrician to fit the fusebox.

 

Chris

 

Hi Chris, just reading through your replies and wondered if you could clarify the RCD/MCB requirements.

 

My boat has shorepower ring main fitted but only has an RCD fitted no MCB. The boat was bought from new 2 years ago so have the regs changed or did the builders do it on the cheap. The boat is now out of warranty and the builders have ceased trading so if it should have an MCB fitted can you suggest a means of doing it ie fit a completely new panel to include RCD/MCB or just fit a MCB alongside the existing RCD. whichever you think is best where would be a good place to purchase the parts from. Thanks Bob

 

Just looked at the panel Alex suggested and it seems the RCD and MCB are combined could this be the same in my case?

Edited April 4, 2009 by oggie

[chris w]

Just looked at the panel Alex suggested and it seems the RCD and MCB are combined could this be the same in my case?

It could well be - it's known as an RCBO. I have one on my boat too.

 

It would be unusual (and dangerous) not to have an MCB fitted (normally 16A). Look carefully at your "RCD", it may well state "RCBO". Even if it is not, if it is marked 16A (or some similar amperage), then it is almost certainly an RCBO.

 

Chris

[Keeping Up]

... clarify the RCD/MCB requirements ...

The BSS appears merely to REQUIRE that 240v supplies be suitably insulated, be above bilge water level, and be appropriately fused (or fitted with circuit breakers). The need for an RCD is only a recommendation (although NOT one that I would choose to ignore)

[blueprince]

Halfords sell a 500w square wave inverter for £59, I have one as a backup, no problems, though it does seem to make the laptops power supply run a degree or two hotter. It's also quite pretty.

[Mary 1]

Mary there's nothing wrong with a Sterling, but if it says Mastervolt then insist on the Mastervolt - they're probably twice the price.

 

If it says it should be fitted, then it's fair to assume that means fitted and working - safely. I don't think you should have to pay for anything including the fitting of an RCD.

 

A reasonable approach may be to say you will accept the Sterling as long as they fit the RCD too - FOC.

 

Hi every one, This is getting worse by the minute, spoke to owner/seller of boat, which is on brokerage, at N U B C. It is fitted with a battery charger for 12 volt only, it has this plug for shore line, which I have seen. It is advertised with a mastervolt Inverter. I have only with held £1000 from the price, All money is cleared and it is a lot of money to. They have not paid owner anything, so he is really cross, and agrees it is neither of our faults re the advert miss print, if that's what it is. The boat is still advertised in the canal mag this month[with an Inverter]

So owner/seller told me last night, if this is not sorted by the weekend, he has instructed the broker to re advertise the boat as its Easter, and there will be plenty of folk looking. I did remind him that the survey was not till the 20th April, even though I have paid up front. I am really fed up, and I am sure it this man thing again, dopey female syndrome, this is my third nb, I am not a prat, and I am really worried I will not get this boat, It a lovely boat, the interior is delightful, and everything is perfect for me, shall I just pay the grand and forget it all. I DON'T WANT TO LOOSE HER. I COULD THEN GET HORRIED AFTERWARDS

Mary 1

 

Hi all, I think I am being fobbed off here, the co we have bought the boat from, are having to fit an Inverter as there was one in the sales description, which turned out to be a battery charger.

So they have found the elec from a shore line is fitted in the bow, with the batts at the stern, and suggested that it needs re newing from the stern to include a fuse box as there is not one. This said the want to fit a Stirling inverter 1800 watt, not a pure sine wave but one of the half and half jobs, sorry I am not the tech minded, all for the sum of £575. I only need to run my lap top and a DVD and TV. They were going to fit an inverter with just crock clips, a cheap bog standard unit, to get them round the miss rep add. What do I do, help required from the fairer sex p l e a s e.

Mary1

there IS A FUSE AT THE END OF THE SHORE LINE AS WELL. owner WAS LIVED WHEN i TOLD HIM what the electrician had said, and how much the quote was.

M

[steve hayes]

Hi every one, This is getting worse by the minute, spoke to owner/seller of boat, which is on brokerage, at N U B C. It is fitted with a battery charger for 12 volt only, it has this plug for shore line, which I have seen. It is advertised with a mastervolt Inverter. I have only with held £1000 from the price, All money is cleared and it is a lot of money to. They have not paid owner anything, so he is really cross, and agrees it is neither of our faults re the advert miss print, if that's what it is. The boat is still advertised in the canal mag this month[with an Inverter]

So owner/seller told me last night, if this is not sorted by the weekend, he has instructed the broker to re advertise the boat as its Easter, and there will be plenty of folk looking. I did remind him that the survey was not till the 20th April, even though I have paid up front. I am really fed up, and I am sure it this man thing again, dopey female syndrome, this is my third nb, I am not a prat, and I am really worried I will not get this boat, It a lovely boat, the interior is delightful, and everything is perfect for me, shall I just pay the grand and forget it all. I DON'T WANT TO LOOSE HER. I COULD THEN GET HORRIED AFTERWARDS

Mary 1

 

 

there IS A FUSE AT THE END OF THE SHORE LINE AS WELL. owner WAS LIVED WHEN i TOLD HIM what the electrician had said, and how much the quote was.

M

 

Mary

 

We bought a boat from the UBC a couple of years ago and they miss advertised the age of the boat by about three years (younger of course). When I was going through the paperwork they had I discovered the discrepancy and pointed this out to them with a significant alteration to the offer we had made. I was amazed that they accepted the revised offer with next to no arguement. I think that they don't check the boat details out fully before advertising, very shoddy.

[NB Willawaw]

Hi Mary,

 

So, to recap, you have paid all but £1k for the boat in advance and the survey isn't due until the 20th April.

The inverter that they advertise doesn't really exist.

 

Will they refund the money if the boat doesn't come out well in the survey and you decide not to proceed with the sale ?

If there is work that needs doing as a result of things that come out of the survey, how will you negotiate with the

broker for reductions to cover the shortcomings ?

 

What are the terms of the contract that you have entered into with the broker ?

 

On a separate tack, if they accept £1k less because there is no inverter, you could have a shoreline professionally

fitted for the charger and an inverter fitted for that kind of money.

[david and julie]

So owner/seller told me last night, if this is not sorted by the weekend, he has instructed the broker to re advertise the boat as its Easter, and there will be plenty of folk looking.

Very nice of the owner that.

 

If I was in your position I would call the owners bluff - loads of people looking isn't loads of people buying. The broker and the owner will have to get their heads together and come up with a solution if they want to sell the boat.

 

Why are you having to deal with the owner anyway?

[Mary 1]

Very nice of the owner that.

 

If I was in your position I would call the owners bluff - loads of people looking isn't loads of people buying. The broker and the owner will have to get their heads together and come up with a solution if they want to sell the boat.

 

Why are you having to deal with the owner anyway?

 

I met the owner two weeks ago, so they could show me all the things on the boat and it idiocincricies, it was fine, every thing worked etc. He gave me his tel number in case!!!

So I rang him the other night to check if there was a fuse on the shore line. That's when he said what he did.I know the broker has to take care of the seller, primarily, but with out a buyer no one wins !

M

[chris w]

Note that the seller/broker may not be able to pull out of the sale to you. The "sale" does NOT take place when the money is paid, in fact that has nothing to do with the legal definition of the "sale". The sale takes place when you and the buyer agree a price and you state that you will buy and the seller accepts. (known as "offer and acceptance" legally).

 

Unless stated to the contrary in the contract, the boat (or any object) becomes legally YOUR property once your offer is accepted even if you haven't paid for it. The contract may overturn this in stating that title does not pass to you until the money is paid in full etc. But even if it does state this, the "offer and acceptance" is still binding. The bottom line is that the broker/owner cannot just turn round and say they will sell it to someone else. Your offer was accepted and they are now delinquent in not supplying as advertised (viz: the inverter). Legally, you hold the aces.

 

Note that, where title passes to you on "offer and acceptance", (ie: before money is paid), the property is legally yours and if, say, destroyed by fire at the vendor's property, you would still be responsible for the loss. IF the contract states that title only passes on all monies being paid then this last bit does not obtain.

 

Chris

[blueprince]

Note that the seller/broker may not be able to pull out of the sale to you. The "sale" does NOT take place when the money is paid, in fact that has nothing to do with the legal definition of the "sale". The sale takes place when you and the buyer agree a price and you state that you will buy and the seller accepts. (known as "offer and acceptance" legally).

 

Unless stated to the contrary in the contract, the boat (or any object) becomes legally YOUR property once your offer is accepted even if you haven't paid for it. The contract may overturn this in stating that title does not pass to you until the money is paid in full etc. But even if it does state this, the "offer and acceptance" is still binding. The bottom line is that the broker/owner cannot just turn round and say they will sell it to someone else. Your offer was accepted and they are now delinquent in not supplying as advertised (viz: the inverter). Legally, you hold the aces.

 

Note that, where title passes to you on "offer and acceptance", (ie: before money is paid), the property is legally yours and if, say, destroyed by fire at the vendor's property, you would still be responsible for the loss. IF the contract states that title only passes on all monies being paid then this last bit does not obtain.

 

Chris

 

I've been doing a bit of research on this and a narrowboat is defined as a "deedless chattel" and seems to occupy a grey area of law, as such is there a "title" to pass? The impression I get is not, and so the whole sales procedure is a lot less formal and is only defined by the contract.

[oggie]

It could well be - it's known as an RCBO. I have one on my boat too.

 

It would be unusual (and dangerous) not to have an MCB fitted (normally 16A). Look carefully at your "RCD", it may well state "RCBO". Even if it is not, if it is marked 16A (or some similar amperage), then it is almost certainly an RCBO.

 

Chris

 

Many thanks for the information Chris, I have been on the boat the last couple of days and had a good look at the breaker it does say C16 on it and gives figures I think in milliamps, I have taken a photo of it but being new to this forum don't know how to show it.

 

If you or anyone can explain how to add pictures I will be happy to show you.

 

Regards

 

Bob.

 

 

<a href="http://s659.photobucket.com/albums/uu320/oggie1947/?action=view&current=DSCF0423.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i659.photobucket.com/albums/uu320/oggie1947/DSCF0423.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

 

Have got this far thanks to Bottle,

Edited April 8, 2009 by oggie

[bottle]

Bob (Oggie)

 

Have a look here: http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=3201

[wonderdust]

Many thanks for the information Chris, I have been on the boat the last couple of days and had a good look at the breaker it does say C16 on it and gives figures I think in milliamps, I have taken a photo of it but being new to this forum don't know how to show it.

 

If you or anyone can explain how to add pictures I will be happy to show you.

 

Regards

 

Bob.

 

What is the mcb servicing?

[oggie]

Bob (Oggie)

 

Have a look here: http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=3201

 

 

Followed the link you advised, but it must be me being thick, got right to the last page and pasted the address in and got the gobbledegook in my reply to Chris W above.

 

What is the mcb servicing?

 

 

Chris W thinks the breaker fitted to my boat could be an RCBO which I understand is a combined RCD/MCB it just services a normal boat 3 double socket ring main.

[bottle]

Bob

 

You have Photobucket, just select the image you wish to post and 'copy' the IMG code (last one in the list) then just paste that in your post.

 

The code starts