Radiator TRV's?

[kayak]

Morning all.

 

I have decided to fit TRV's to my radiators in the boat. For those of you who dont know it is a new fit out. I have purchased TRV's made by Honeywell from Screwfix but i have hit some trouble tightening them up. I have assembled them and fitted the stubs into the rads but tightening the nut and olive around the stub is a nightmare, it is fine on the lockshield side but on the TRV side i cant get them to tighten up. Have any of our plumbing gurus had a problem with these? or any comments as to the quality of these fittings?

 

Thanks all.

 

Kayak.

[David Schweizer]

Morning all.

 

I have decided to fit TRV's to my radiators in the boat. For those of you who dont know it is a new fit out. I have purchased TRV's made by Honeywell from Screwfix but i have hit some trouble tightening them up. I have assembled them and fitted the stubs into the rads but tightening the nut and olive around the stub is a nightmare, it is fine on the lockshield side but on the TRV side i cant get them to tighten up. Have any of our plumbing gurus had a problem with these? or any comments as to the quality of these fittings?

 

Thanks all.

 

Kayak.

I have used Honeywell equipment for years, and have always found it to be of excellent quality. I assume that you are using the olives supplied with the TVRs. If they are a bit loose you could try a different type, as some are bulkier than others.

 

Honeywell's Technical Department used to be very good (only say "used to be" because I have not used them for some while) If all else fails, I would suggest that you contact them for advice.

[kayak]

I have used Honeywell equipment for years, and have always found it to be of excellent quality. I assume that you are using the olives supplied with the TVRs. If they are a bit loose you could try a different type, as some are bulkier than others.

 

Honeywell's Technical Department used to be very good (only say "used to be" because I have not used them for some while) If all else fails, I would suggest that you contact them for advice.

 

Hi David, thanks for the reply.

 

Yes i am using the olives supplied by them, they do seem a little loose on the stubs and rather chunky. As you can tell i dont know great deal about plumbing. This may seem like a silly question but how much (if at all) should a compression joint rotate when tightened up. I can get the nut and olive tight on the stub but i can still rotate the valve with a bit of force. This is on the TRV side only, on the lockshield side it is rock solid! is a bit of play ok or will this leak, should i use PTFE around the olive?

 

Kayak.

[david and julie]

Use PTFE and tighten it up more.

[David Schweizer]

Hi David, thanks for the reply.

 

Yes i am using the olives supplied by them, they do seem a little loose on the stubs and rather chunky. As you can tell i dont know great deal about plumbing. This may seem like a silly question but how much (if at all) should a compression joint rotate when tightened up. I can get the nut and olive tight on the stub but i can still rotate the valve with a bit of force. This is on the TRV side only, on the lockshield side it is rock solid! is a bit of play ok or will this leak, should i use PTFE around the olive?

 

Kayak.

Definitely not. but you could try some plumbers Boss White wiped round the olive, but that still relies upon a solid compression. If you break the joint can you still remove the olive from the stubb. if yu can you need to use a bit more torque tightening up. If the olive is made from brass (which I believe is what Honeywell usually supply) they do need quite a lot of efort to tighten them, especially on a (chrome plated?) brass stubb. Copper olives may work better, as they compress more easily, but if they dony work either, but compress onto the stubb, you have the problem of trying to remove them, which can be done, but it is easy to damage the surface of the stubb.

 

One thing has just occurred to me, Are the TVRs you have bought designed to swivel? so that you cam rotate the panel away from the wall to paint behiond them? if they are that some mobvement is presumably designed it. I have bnever used that type so cannot give any definite advice.

Edited March 2, 2009 by David Schweizer

[kayak]

Definitely not. but you could try some plumbers Boss White wiped round the olive, but that still relies upon a solid compression. If you break the joint can you still remove the olive from the stubb. if yu can you need to use a bit more torque tightening up. If the olive is made from brass (which I believe is what Honeywell usually supply) they do need quite a lot of efort to tighten them, especially on a (chrome plated?) brass stubb. Copper olives may work better, as they compress more easily, but if they dony work either, but compress onto the stubb, you have the problem of trying to remove them, which can be done, but it is easy to damage the surface of the stubb.

 

One thing has just occurred to me, Are the TVRs you have bought designed to swivel? so that you cam rotate the panel away from the wall to paint behiond them? if they are that some mobvement is presumably designed it. I have bnever used that type so cannot give any definite advice.

 

 

I think that if i broke the joint i would still be able to remove the olive. i dont think that they are designed to swivel.

 

Why do say not to use PTFE?

 

Kayak.

[David Schweizer]

I think that if i broke the joint i would still be able to remove the olive. i dont think that they are designed to swivel.

 

Why do say not to use PTFE?

 

Kayak.

It sounds as if you are not applying enough purchase to the tightening proces, To obtatin a watertight joint the olive must be compressed onto the tail to a point that it cannot move at all. You may need longer spanner, or more muscle.

 

PTFE tape is designed to take up any space through which water might leak in screw threads. It compresses down to nothing where under pressure and banks up where there are (minute) gaps, and is used mainly where a threaded component is to be screwed into a tapped hole (the joint between your Radiator and the threaded tail being a typical example). It also relies upon the tape being wound tightly around the thread which holds it in place whilst the joint is being made. If you used it on an olive it would just push off whith the tightening proces.

[kayak]

It sounds as if you are not applying enough purchase to the tightening proces, To obtatin a watertight joint the olive must be compressed onto the tail to a point that it cannot move at all. You may need longer spanner, or more muscle.

 

PTFE tape is designed to take up any space through which water might leak in screw threads. It compresses down to nothing where under pressure and banks up where there are (minute) gaps, and is used mainly where a threaded component is to be screwed into a tapped hole (the joint between your Radiator and the threaded tail being a typical example). It also relies upon the tape being wound tightly around the thread which holds it in place whilst the joint is being made. If you used it on an olive it would just push off whith the tightening proces.

 

 

Point taken on the PTFE, the trouble is i dont think i dare tightn it up any more. Its getting so tight it is starting to creak and im worried i may snap the nut!

[smileypete]

Point taken on the PTFE, the trouble is i dont think i dare tightn it up any more. Its getting so tight it is starting to creak and im worried i may snap the nut!

 

I'd try a number of (clockwise) turns of PTFE on the thread the nut tightens onto.

 

cheers,

Pete.

[David Schweizer]

I'd try a number of (clockwise) turns of PTFE on the thread the nut tightens onto.

 

cheers,

Pete.

That will just make the nut harder to screw down, it won't address the issue of a loose olive, it may stop a badly compressed fitting from leaking for a while but not for long. It will soon be leaking, because the water will pass through the gap between th loose olive and the threaded tail, and backwards along the tail. No amount opf PTFE tape on the nut will stop that.

 

Point taken on the PTFE, the trouble is i dont think i dare tightn it up any more. Its getting so tight it is starting to creak and im worried i may snap the nut!

Don't worry about squeaking, that's what brass does when it starts to get tight, and is a sign that you are beginning to compress the olive. Believe me those compressionn fittings are tough. I have never had one break on me, and the tail will be made of much heavier material than standard 15mm copper pipe.

Edited March 2, 2009 by David Schweizer

[smileypete]

That will just make the nut harder to screw down, it won't address the issue of a loose olive, it may stop a badly compressed fitting from leaking for a while but not for long. It will soon be leaking, because the water will pass through the gap between th loose olive and the threaded tail, and backwards along the tail. No amount opf PTFE tape on the nut will stop that.

 

PTFE on the thread acts as a lubricant, it's got nothing to do with sealing the olive whatsoever.

 

Its fine to put some on the outside rear half of the olive too (that the nut screws onto), as it's not a sealing face but has the back of the nut twisted against it.

 

The less friction between the nut and the fitting, the more force there is to compress the olive, and the easier it is to screw the nut down, exactly the opposite of what you're saying!

 

cheers,

Pete.

Edited March 2, 2009 by smileypete

[David Schweizer]

A few turns of PTFE tape on the male thread will afford some lubrication. but it must be wound on in a clockwise direction and none of the tape must go across the olive seat, as this could obstruct the watertight seal. Also I would counsell against using any PTFE tape on the olive, as this could easily be pushed onto the mating surface and again obstruct the watertight seal. If you do decide to use PTFE tape on the olive, it must be wound on very tightly and in a clock wise direction, and on the side adjacent to the tighteming nut.

 

If you have never useds PTFE tape before you will probably end up throwing the roll across the floor. it is fiddly stuff to use and certainly takes some practice to secure a tight application on smooth surfaces. It is also considered bad practice to use PTFE tape on olives, and is usually only applied as a last resort on joints which are difficult to access for removal and replacement, or by cowboys who are too lazy to do the job properly.

 

If lubrication is an issue, and it should not be one a new component, you could try wiping the male thread with a minute amount of undiluted Fairy liquid, that's what most plumbers would do.

Edited March 3, 2009 by David Schweizer

[kerching]

kayak,

 

After you fitted the tail of the valve into the rad did you tap the valve onto the tail to knock the olive further onto the tail. When the valves are sent out the olives are not knocked on as the compression nut would hinder the adjustable spanner from fitting over the part of the tail used for tightening. This means the the olive is sat on the front of the tail and it will not go into the valve full socket. Tap it on using a piece of wood to save damaging the valve.

 

If you are still not confident that it is tight enough you could perhaps get a 15mm compression socket and tighten this onto the tail, still using the chrome nut. This will allow you to put a spanner on the chrome nut and a spanner on the body of the socket and hold against yourself this way rather than using the valve and get more purchase.

[kayak]

Morning All.

 

After taking all of your helpfull advice i went back over to the boat last night and started again. It seems that lubrication was the key! I put a little PTFE on the thread of the nut and tightened it back up. With a bit of a turn the olive must have started to bite because now the wholoe thing is rock solid (he says!) so we will just have to wait for the water to be turned on, we shall soon see if there is plumber in me yet!

 

On another note, the cantral heating running from the Alde 3010 is being done in 22mm speedfit. I was told by a plumber/friend that i should spend the extra and use inserts in the ends of the pipes. I did this and it makes a very positive joint. However, if you try to take the joint apart all that you end up doing is pulling the pipe out and leaving the insert in the fitting, in this case a 22mm to 15mm reducing tee! You can push the pipe back in but it isnt the best situation.

 

Thanks all for your comments, once more they have proved very valuable.

 

Kayak.

[paulcatchpole]

I did this and it makes a very positive joint. However, if you try to take the joint apart all that you end up doing is pulling the pipe out and leaving the insert in the fitting, in this case a 22mm to 15mm reducing tee! You can push the pipe back in but it isnt the best situation.

 

This happens to me with the 15mm speedfit more often than not. JG's website FAQ suggests that this meant the pipe wasn't fully home in the first place, although I'm very certain mine were.

 

I've found you can carefully pull the insert out of the fitting using needle-nosed pliers - or better, unscrew the fitting collar and you can easily remove the insert that way, without risking damage to the grab 'ears' inside.

 

PC

[david and julie]

I was told by a plumber/friend that i should spend the extra and use inserts in the ends of the pipes. I did this and it makes a very positive joint. However, if you try to take the joint apart all that you end up doing is pulling the pipe out and leaving the insert in the fitting, in this case a 22mm to 15mm reducing tee! You can push the pipe back in but it isnt the best situation.

The inserts aren't optional - you have to use them. If you are taking the plastic pipe directly into the TRV you will need the steel inserts. (and yes you can most definately use PTFE on these and on the olive too if it gives any problems).

 

The insert is staying in the fitting because you haven't taken the fitting apart - you need to unscrew the "nut" part of the fitting first - you also need to tighten these "nuts" up when you've finished the joint.

 

Also don't forget you need to use copper pipe for the first metre or so from the boiler.

 

Edited to add - no offence meant, but it may be best to get the plumber friend to do the gas.

Edited March 4, 2009 by david and julie

[kayak]

The inserts aren't optional - you have to use them. If you are taking the plastic pipe directly into the TRV you will need the steel inserts. (and yes you can most definately use PTFE on these and on the olive too if it gives any problems).

 

The insert is staying in the fitting because you haven't taken the fitting apart - you need to unscrew the "nut" part of the fitting first - you also need to tighten these "nuts" up when you've finished the joint.

 

Also don't forget you need to use copper pipe for the first metre or so from the boiler.

 

Edited to add - no offence meant, but it may be best to get the plumber friend to do the gas.

 

 

Metal inserts????? where do i get these from i have used the normal pipe inserts!

 

Kayak.

[david and julie]

Metal inserts????? where do i get these from i have used the normal pipe inserts!

Steel inserts are standard use with Hep20(grey) fittings and will fit other makes(when using compression fittings). The advantage is that if you have a leak you can tighten the fittings more without crushing the insert. You can get them from any plumbers merchant or maybe even B&Q and the like, here's a piccy of one.

http://www.plumbworld.co.uk/hepworth-pipe-support-297-1799

 

You can sometimes use the plastic inserts with copper olives - but if they leak you can't always tighten the fittings as much.

 

An alternative (which looks nicer if your boxing the pipes in) is to use short lengths of chrome copper pipe from your tee's to the TRV's.

[mrsmelly]

Metal inserts????? where do i get these from i have used the normal pipe inserts!

 

Kayak.

 

Hi Kayak, jeeeeeeeeeeees it appears u r to plumbing what Ghengis Khan was to diplomacy !! Please pleeese pleeeeese dont do ur own gaswork mate

[kerching]

Steel inserts are standard use with Hep20(grey) fittings and will fit other makes(when using compression fittings). The advantage is that if you have a leak you can tighten the fittings more without crushing the insert. You can get them from any plumbers merchant or maybe even B&Q and the like, here's a piccy of one.

http://www.plumbworld.co.uk/hepworth-pipe-support-297-1799

 

You can sometimes use the plastic inserts with copper olives - but if they leak you can't always tighten the fittings as much.

 

An alternative (which looks nicer if your boxing the pipes in) is to use short lengths of chrome copper pipe from your tee's to the TRV's.

 

Chrome pipe should not be used into speedfit/hep2o fitting.

[Andy Woods]

Just use 15mm copper from the speedfit reducing tee to the compression fitting of the TRV....no need for any inserts then!

Never a good idea to use compression directly to speedfit ,whatever the insert.

[BEngo]

Morning all.

 

I have decided to fit TRV's to my radiators in the boat.

 

Kayak,

 

If you are fitting TRV to rads heated by a solid fuel stove do not fit them to every Rad. If you do and they all shut off because its nice and warm in the boat there is nowhere for the heat from the stove to go. Then the next event is Boily Boily Boily! Plastic pipe won't like that, not to metion the water everywhere from the expansion tank.

 

N

[david and julie]

Chrome pipe should not be used into speedfit/hep2o fitting.

Chrome pipe can be used with plastic fittings but you need to sand back the chrome on the part of the pipe that will be in the fitting - exactly as you do when using chromed capillary fittings.

 

That said, perhaps I shouldn't have suggested it.

[David Schweizer]

Just use 15mm copper from the speedfit reducing tee to the compression fitting of the TRV....no need for any inserts then!

Never a good idea to use compression directly to speedfit ,whatever the insert.

I cannot comment of brass compression fittings on Speedfit pipe as I have never used it, but there is no problem using them on Hep20 pipe providing you use the stainless steel, inserts. I have several on my boat and even more on the central heating in my house, after ten years there are still no leaks.

[kayak]

Hi Kayak, jeeeeeeeeeeees it appears u r to plumbing what Ghengis Khan was to diplomacy !! Please pleeese pleeeeese dont do ur own gaswork mate

 

 

Why not? I am a fast learner. It aint that hard. All you have to do is stuff the pipes in the fittings and test for leaks with a match (or a lighter if you are really posh) Are you implying that i am not a "Competant Person" ?

 

ONLY JOKING!

 

I have a "man" to do the gas.

 

Thanks

 

Kayak.