Jasons Trip

[AMModels]

Ok looking for some advice and or knowledge on this one, Jason of Jasons trip which boat is she? Portugal or France or A.N.Other??

 

 

Anyone know?

 

Merry Xmas fellow anoraks

[alan_fincher]

Ok looking for some advice and or knowledge on this one, Jason of Jasons trip which boat is she? Portugal or France or A.N.Other??

 

 

Anyone know?

 

Merry Xmas fellow anoraks

Have you tried contacting the owners ?

 

They claim her to be 101 years old, ("probably the oldest working narrowboat in the world"), but if that were even close to being true, then surely it doesn't square with her being either France or Portugal, does it ?).

 

No anoraks here, as I don't know the answer!

 

Alan

[AMModels]

I agree if she were 101 she wouldnt be either of those but I seem to recall seeing something about her being one of the two boats above...I shall check my records and see what they say.

 

Mine says France but Portugal is a chance with France now being called Portugal or vice versa lol.

 

No matter what boat she is she is less than 101 years old as none of the motors were built before 1913, and there is no way she looks like a steamer!!

[Derek R.]

Ok looking for some advice and or knowledge on this one, Jason of Jasons trip which boat is she? Portugal or France or A.N.Other??

 

 

Anyone know?

 

Merry Xmas fellow anoraks

 

About France or Portugal ask Tim Higton, I believe he's had one or the other or 'it'. Seem to recall discussion on Jason's Trip boats a while back, I very much doubt the present trip boat under that name is 101yrs old, though the original if extant might be.

There are a few on here who have worked trip boats in London (not me).

[Hairy-Neil]

IIRC the current 'Jason' is a replacement, the original was a wooden boat?

 

There was an article on Jasons Trip in WW in the mid 1990s.

 

I believe the current outfit run two Joshers but at one time (1960's) used a motor and butty combination. The butty was the Little Northwich, 'Serpens'. There is a picture of her in Jason livery, tied up at the Blomfield Rd base, on the cover of a book in my collection titled, London's Canals. Further pictures appear inside, including one with Serpens in tow, though likely show the earlier Jason.

Edited December 27, 2008 by Hairy-Neil

[alan_fincher]

The "Jason" I remember from the early 1970s was, I thought, an iron boat. I may have some pictures - I'll go hunting later.

 

I don't believe it still operates with a butty - or at least I saw no sign of one our last two layovers in Little Venice.

 

As it has awnings that project maybe a foot beside the outline of the boat, it would be imppossible to breast it up with something else, anyway.

 

There is another boat in "Jason" livery moored in one of the short arms south of Ricky. I can't recall which, but it's the one where a large steel footbridge takes you high over the entrance, (a cyclists challenge!). It's not the the Troy Cut, I think, but possibly at the sewage works between Springwell & Copper Mill.

 

I can't remember if it's motor or butty, (or even if it's old), but it also has the distinctive overhanging canopies. I've a feeling it's name begins with an "H". It's certainly not Serpens. (Could it be "Holland" ???).

 

Sorry, I've probably raised more questions than I've answered!.

 

Alan

 

EDIT:

 

I do have an early 1970s picture of Jason, but it only shows the bows - definitely a metal boat then.

Edited December 27, 2008 by alan_fincher

[Timleech]

IIRC the current 'Jason' is a replacement, the original was a wooden boat?

 

There was an article on Jasons Trip in WW in the mid 1990s.

 

I believe the current outfit run two Joshers but at one time (1960's) used a motor and butty combination. The butty was the Little Northwich, 'Serpens'. There is a picture of her in Jason livery, tied up at the Blomfield Rd base, on the cover of a book in my collection titled, London's Canals. Further pictures appear inside, including one with Serpens in tow, though likely show the earlier Jason.

 

What happened to the Lapwing?

It went DarnSarf after finishing up here as a trip boat in, I suppose, the early eighties and AIUI was destined to continue as a trip boat.

Early Joshers motor boat, circa 1913.

 

Tim

[Hairy-Neil]

I think, but possibly at the sewage works between Springwell & Copper Mill.

 

I can't remember if it's motor or butty, (or even if it's old), but it also has the distinctive overhanging canopies. I've a feeling it's name begins with an "H". It's certainly not Serpens. (Could it be "Holland" ???).

 

In the mid 1990s, Jasons Trip ran two boats on the trade, both Josher motors. Holland rings bells with me now you mention it.....

 

Colne Valley Sewage Treatment Works, AKA the Stink'ole at Maple Cross. This was a user of waterborne slack coal till c.1967. There was a requirement to keep the cargo dry and by this time this was a rare southbound clothed up load.

 

 

 

 

I don't believe it still operates with a butty -

 

It doesn't, and hasn't for many years. 'Serpens' was sold on for service as a tripper on the Monmouth & Brecon Canal, for which it was shortened by about 10ft. It has since been relengthened with the original plates at Jem Bates yard on the Aylesbury arm, c. 2000. I last saw it at Marston on the northern T&M canal in early August.

[carlt]

France is converted and moored in Braunston Marina, isn't she??

 

The original Jason (though even she was "Jason 2" at the time) was built in 1924 for Chas Nelson, by Nursers, according to Tom Chaplin's "Narrow Boats".

 

Doesn't help you with the current one, though.

[AMModels]

Im not sure shes France for sure tho she may be Portugal with France' name another of the name swaps from the past. Although unlike Emperor/Empress I dont think there will be any tank fittings in either boat from Claytons to give us a clue.

[alan_fincher]

In the mid 1990s, Jasons Trip ran two boats on the trade, both Josher motors. Holland rings bells with me now you mention it.....

Yes, Holland still sticks in my head, but I might be making it up! It's still configured as a trip boat in Jason style livery, but I'm not aware of it being worked as such. It has a Jason style canopy that projects way beyond the boat, so operating in the many locks on that stretch would be a nightmare, surely ?

 

Colne Valley Sewage Treatment Works, AKA the Stink'ole at Maple Cross. This was a user of waterborne slack coal till c.1967. There was a requirement to keep the cargo dry and by this time this was a rare southbound clothed up load.

I've always been a bit puzzled by that one. What do you need large amounts of coal for at a sewage treatment works ? I can't remember other sewage treatment works having coal stockpiles, so was there something special about that one ?

 

It doesn't, and hasn't for many years. 'Serpens' was sold on for service as a tripper on the Monmouth & Brecon Canal, for which it was shortened by about 10ft.

Sorry - misread your original post. I believe that Serpens was still operating with Jason well into the 1970s, but although I thought I had pictures, I can't prove it.

 

What is certain is that Jason was already a metal boat by the early 1970s, so any wooden boat had ceased to operate by that date.

 

The only regular wooden trip narrow boat I instantly remember from that kind of date was Bryan Nicholl's "Arcturus", now restored in an unconverted condition, (or possibly with an "under tarpaulin" conversion ?).

[LEO]

I've always been a bit puzzled by that one. What do you need large amounts of coal for at a sewage treatment works ? I can't remember other sewage treatment works having coal stockpiles, so was there something special about that one ?

 

Hi,

 

I suspect this is a relatively modern works where sewage is pre-heated to improve/speed up treatment. This is a huge treatment works treating sewage form a large 'catchment' area.

 

Leo.

[Derek R.]

I've always been a bit puzzled by that one. What do you need large amounts of coal for at a sewage treatment works ? I can't remember other sewage treatment works having coal stockpiles, so was there something special about that one ?

 

Pumping power. Possibly by steam, or maybe they had a converter to produce coal gas for gas engines, but likely either power to operate pumps directly or produce their own electricity to do same. Haven't found anything definitive on the 'net so far. Interesting subject in itself.

 

Edit: There may be more value in Leo's reply.

Edited December 28, 2008 by Derek R.

[Timleech]

Noone responded to my query about the Lapwing, so a few minutes with Google gave me this:-

 

http://www.floatingboater.co.uk/boats.html

 

and for Jason's trip this:-

 

http://www.jasons.co.uk/Jasons/album/index.html

 

If you look under 'Jason', the third and fourth pics show the boat (the site implies just one boat, plus a modern restaurant boat), the fourth pic has what is probably the Lapwing at the RH side.

 

What chance that it's a motorised butty/horse boat, that could achieve the claimed age?

 

Note for Andy re your FMC page.

Check the build dates for the steamers :lol:

 

Also I can't see any reference to the horse boats which were motorised by Yarwoods, such as Gambia & Siberia and I think a couple of others, these two seem to have the conversion dates listed as the build dates.

 

Tim

Edited December 28, 2008 by Timleech

[Hairy-Neil]

I've always been a bit puzzled by that one. What do you need large amounts of coal for at a sewage treatment works ? I can't remember other sewage treatment works having coal stockpiles, so was there something special about that one ?

 

The only regular wooden trip narrow boat I instantly remember from that kind of date was Bryan Nicholl's "Arcturus", now restored in an unconverted condition, (or possibly with an "under tarpaulin" conversion ?).

 

The Braunston lock keepers log shows 2 pairs some weeks, 3 pairs others. Remember this was slack coal and there was a requirement to keep it dry so it's likely you won't have seen the stockpile outside.

 

The wooden butty 'Iona' worked as a horse drawn trip boat on the Shroppie for a while, out of Norbury IIRC. Iona was later replaced on the trade by the Little Woolwich butty 'Bellerothon', renamed Iona. At some point, the boat moved to Godalming on the River Wey, continuing in the tripper trade. I don't know if this is still the case, but certainly was c.1997. I recall seeing her resplendant, ex docking at Purford Marina around that time when I was there on the dry dock welding patches on the Nuneaton.

[Hairy-Neil]

Also I can't see any reference to the horse boats which were motorised by Yarwoods, such as Gambia & Siberia and I think a couple of others, these two seem to have the conversion dates listed as the build dates.

 

Tim

 

Kimberley, Hanley....

[Timleech]

The Braunston lock keepers log shows 2 pairs some weeks, 3 pairs others. Remember this was slack coal and there was a requirement to keep it dry so it's likely you won't have seen the stockpile outside.

 

The wooden butty 'Iona' worked as a horse drawn trip boat on the Shroppie for a while, out of Norbury IIRC. Iona was later replaced on the trade by the Little Woolwich butty 'Bellerothon', renamed Iona. At some point, the boat moved to Godalming on the River Wey, continuing in the tripper trade. I don't know if this is still the case, but certainly was c.1997. I recall seeing her resplendant, ex docking at Purford Marina around that time when I was there on the dry dock welding patches on the Nuneaton.

 

A friend of mine (Phil Haves) bought the original Iona from Norbury, we bowhauled it & cadged lifts IIRC down to the Birmingham IWA rally & then bowhauled back as far as Shebdon whence we managed to wangle a tow to Preston Brook from Ted Spencer with the B&MCCCo's Cypress.

 

She was then converted at Preston Brook for Phil to live aboard while at Oxford university.

 

One unusual feature was that the deck had been filled with PU foam, 'cast' in place, to provide buoyancy to keep the BoT trip boat inspector happy

 

Tim

Edited December 28, 2008 by Timleech

[Rick-n-Jo]

The wooden butty 'Iona' worked as a horse drawn trip boat on the Shroppie for a while, out of Norbury IIRC. Iona was later replaced on the trade by the Little Woolwich butty 'Bellerothon', renamed Iona. At some point, the boat moved to Godalming on the River Wey, continuing in the tripper trade. I don't know if this is still the case, but certainly was c.1997.

 

Yep, still in business, see their website here

 

Of the few remaining horse-drawn passenger boats, I think she is the only one that is an ex-working boat, rather than purpose built. (At least until we get ours up and running...)

 

Rick

[Rick-n-Jo]

Ok looking for some advice and or knowledge on this one, Jason of Jasons trip which boat is she? Portugal or France or A.N.Other??

 

 

Anyone know?

 

Merry Xmas fellow anoraks

 

I assume you were party to the discussion on the HNBOC yahoo group about this. If you don't have access to that group (as I don't, having let my membership lapse), the thread is archived on OSDIR starting here

 

Consensus seems to be that she is Portugal, built at Saltley in 1906 as a horseboat. So not the oldest working boat then, not by a long way!

 

Rick

[AMModels]

Noone responded to my query about the Lapwing, so a few minutes with Google gave me this:-

 

http://www.floatingboater.co.uk/boats.html

 

and for Jason's trip this:-

 

http://www.jasons.co.uk/Jasons/album/index.html

 

If you look under 'Jason', the third and fourth pics show the boat (the site implies just one boat, plus a modern restaurant boat), the fourth pic has what is probably the Lapwing at the RH side.

 

What chance that it's a motorised butty/horse boat, that could achieve the claimed age?

 

Note for Andy re your FMC page.

Check the build dates for the steamers :lol:

 

Also I can't see any reference to the horse boats which were motorised by Yarwoods, such as Gambia & Siberia and I think a couple of others, these two seem to have the conversion dates listed as the build dates.

 

 

I agree that a motorised butty/horse boat is the only way they could achieve that age and I also used to believe that Holland had a connection to Jason but someone told me a few years ago now that she wasnt that boat and that France or Portugal is now known as Jason. Holland was a trip boat and may still be but she was around the stink'ole towards the end of last year.

Tim

 

 

Cheers Tim, I think the software has converted it to 19-- from 18-- in some cases lol...thats my story and Im sticking to it. As for the motors converted from butties you are right it isnt shown they were ex horse boats on the online version I will change that when Im sober enough to understand what Im doing lol.

[AMModels]

I assume you were party to the discussion on the HNBOC yahoo group about this. If you don't have access to that group (as I don't, having let my membership lapse), the thread is archived on OSDIR starting here

 

Consensus seems to be that she is Portugal, built at Saltley in 1906 as a horseboat. So not the oldest working boat then, not by a long way!

 

Rick

 

No Rick, Im not a member of HNBOC, I had got to the point Im at by information sent to me so it may well have come from that list originally. I dont think we will ever know 100% the identity but maybe someone has the bcn plate or something similar or one or other of the boat still has them on them and we will have proof.

[johnthebridge]

France was built at Saltley in 1906, and converted to a motor at Yarwoods in 1937. That would justify their claim that she's 101 years old, but I seem to remember a fully converted France lying on the Severn at Mythe Bridge in the late '80s. Could be wrong. And Iona was Bellerophon, aka "bally rough 'un".

Edited December 28, 2008 by johnthebridge

[Steve King]

Jason of Jasons trip which boat is she? Portugal or France or A.N.Other??

I’ve been trying to answer the question of Jason’s true identity for over thirty years now. Shall we start at the beginning?

 

Around one hundred years ago FMC were building the ‘Country’ class of butty boats, to include the iron-composite France, Holland and Portugal, some of the class being provided with forecabins.

 

In 1937-8 FMC selected 12 of these butty boats to be converted into motors by Yarwoods, this being achieved by the removal of the butty stern and its replacement with a motor boat counter, by way of a complete new cabin and engine room section.

 

After nationalisation of the FMC fleet in 1948 three of these motor boats found their way into the hands of Thomas Clayton of Birmingham ; England(?) France and Portugal. Claytons had used decked-over wooden motors to carry liquid by-products from gas works for some time but the story goes that one of these iron-composite motors overturned in service, and thereafter the boatman would not be persuaded to use metal boats. In Robert May’s pictorial book of the BCN there is a photo of Adder (believed to be ex-France) decked over and in TC service at Wolverhampton in 1951, under way and passing Towy & Kubina and Ferret tied up.

 

Also in 1951 John James commenced a passenger boat service on the Regent’s Canal at Little Venice using the former Chas Nelson of Stockton wooden motor Jason. This wooden boat eventually failed its Bot exam and John purchased one of the Thos Clayton motors as a replacement. The late Hector Bijl took it to Walkers of Rickmansworth for conversion to a trip boat and it was the penultimate boat (before Arcturus) to be docked there in 1959. Anthony Walker had no photos of the boat ‘as delivered’. Hector Bijl could not remember the number it had displayed somewhere. John James view was that if it had no name he could call it Jason like its predecessor so his advice at the time was ‘if it has a name, I don’t want to know what it is’. The second Jason entered service in 1960. It was joined by the Small Northwich butty Serpens in 1968 and the boats were to be seen operating as a traditional pair for many years. John James retired in 1972 and the business was sold.

 

In 1976 I started work on the Jenny Wren trip boat at Camden Town, but in the following year managed to get some part-time work on the Jason, which, being an ex-working boat was much more to my liking. In January 1978 I went to work for Jason’s Trip full time. The general feeling amongst those who knew (or cared) was that Jason was ex-FMC Portugal, but former boater Charlie Green on the BW Zoo Waterbus Service maintained that it was France. When Mungo Park’s ex-FMC motor France turned up at Little Venice Charlie reaffirmed his view and said he didn’t know what this other imposter was. NBOC information at the time was that this brazen claimant to the title France had been Thos Clayton’s Adder - and of course, Adder had been France. Either way, inspection of Jason’s open hull revealed to passengers and crew alike ( a ) that the boat had previously had a much longer foredeck ending in a substantial 3in frame with a 1in cladding that must have been the rear bulkhead of a forecabin (although only corrosion of the hull now remained to tell the tale) and ( b ) a series of holes, a distance below gunwhale level and now welded up, showed that frames had been in place for the boat to have been decked over as a tar tanker. In dock some time later I was able to confirm that Jason was an old composite boat with a later counter ; the age of the fore-end was evident and the join discernible if you cared to look hard for it.

 

During the 1980s(?) Serpens was sold off and replaced by another motor boat, giving more flexible operation, and thus coincidentally the Holland (another conversion like Jason) joined the fleet. It is interesting to note the different shape of the counters, Jason vs Holland, despite their being converted at the same yard not that long apart.

 

I had, around 1993, an opportunity to inspect France when it came up for sale at Tewkesbury. It too showed the signs of having previously possessed a forecabin, and interestingly retained the riveted-on half of small metal angle brackets along the hull side, the horizontal part evidently having simply been broken off with a sledge hammer when no longer required. I also checked for a square hole for an anser pin in the old gunwhale angle behind the stove (this being covered then by a new steel gunwhale two inches above) but unfortunately I didn’t record what I found – anyway, more of that later.

 

Probably around this time Charlie Green changed his tune and came out in favour of Jason being Portugal.

 

In more recent times a friend has spoken to the owner of France who rejected any doubt as to the identity of his boat, going as far as to observe that one of the floor sections in the boatman’s cabin has France’s fleet number stamped on it.

 

Even more recently, in conversation with the owner (30 years) of ex-FMC Penguin I was to learn that the BCN Records show continuous gauging records of France becoming Adder.

 

So it seems highly likely that France is France and Jason is Portugal. Doesn’t it? Well probably, apart from one piece of interesting visual evidence. GUCCCo motor boats were provided with anser pins on the gunwhale, to which a short rope was attached such that the loop in the end could be put over the butty’s tunnel hook and the boats therefore breasted more satisfactorily. FMC did not work this way, preferring to use a line from the motor’s bow to the mast on the butty, so FMC boats were not fitted with anser pins. These latter are a large metal ‘pin’ firmly bolted through both the metal gunwhale angle and the timber capping, and thus requiring a square hole of about 1½in, quite different to that for a normal gunwhale bolt. Now, thinking back to that photo of Adder in 1951 it is quite clear to see that the boat has been fitted with an anser pin on the port side gunwhale. Hence my search for this hole on France in 1993, and shame on me that I didn’t write down what I found. Could it be that I didn’t write anything down as I didn’t find anything? Most interesting to note later then, that I discovered that the Jason does indeed possess such a hole (although not through the timber and not therefore visible from the outside). My logic is thus: Jason could be Adder in the photo – but could France? More specifically, if France does not have a hole for an anser pin, how could it possibly be Adder in the photo?

 

It might be illuminating to go through the BCN gauging records to find the whereabouts of France, Portugal, and perhaps England (although this latter boat is accounted for).

 

It might also be interesting to take a look at the original gunwhale angle behind the stove on France and see what sort of holes lurk there.

 

But anyway, there you have it, more than thirty years of research and observance as to whether Jason is France or Portugal. And I’d still love to know the anser.

[Hairy-Neil]

France was built at Saltley in 1906, and converted to a motor at Yarwoods in 1937. That would justify their claim that she's 101 years old.....

 

That depends which page of the Jason website you read it on. On another page she is only 100 years old.....Clicky

[Timleech]

In 1976 I started work on the Jenny Wren trip boat at Camden Town, but in the following year managed to get some part-time work on the Jason, which, being an ex-working boat was much more to my liking. In January 1978 I went to work for Jason’s Trip full time. The general feeling amongst those who knew (or cared) was that Jason was ex-FMC Portugal, but former boater Charlie Green on the BW Zoo Waterbus Service maintained that it was France. When Mungo Park’s ex-FMC motor France turned up at Little Venice Charlie reaffirmed his view and said he didn’t know what this other imposter was. NBOC information at the time was that this brazen claimant to the title France had been Thos Clayton’s Adder - and of course, Adder had been France. Either way, inspection of Jason’s open hull revealed to passengers and crew alike ( a ) that the boat had previously had a much longer foredeck ending in a substantial 3in frame with a 1in cladding that must have been the rear bulkhead of a forecabin (although only corrosion of the hull now remained to tell the tale) and ( b ) a series of holes, a distance below gunwhale level and now welded up, showed that frames had been in place for the boat to have been decked over as a tar tanker. In dock some time later I was able to confirm that Jason was an old composite boat with a later counter ; the age of the fore-end was evident and the join discernible if you cared to look hard for it.

 

I did steer Mungo Park's boat briefly in (?)1973, as far as I remember it bore the name Adder at that time but Mungo was well aware of a split personality.

 

Tim