Is this legal?

[echo801]

 

This sign has recently appeared on the kennet and avon in Kintbury.

Anybody that has moored in the area from May to October has probably experienced the sudden thump, thump, thump of boots on the roof; the ripping off of their tv aerial etc.

The boat company has absolutely no regard for other boaters whatsoever.

 

I simply throw open to the forum the legitimacy of the sign: surely it is encumbent upon the boat company to use all reasonable care when trampling over other peoples crafts.

 

I'm sure BW gets a hefty licence fee from the company in order to operate.

 

But...

 

... Is this legal?

[Jon]

Hi,

 

I hope you don't mind but I've edited the text size of your post, it was rather large and distorting what you were trying to say on my screen.

 

I don't know where the legal standpoint is should there be any damage caused, but if BW own/manage the waterway, and as a licence holder you agree to abide by their rules then I think that the may have you here...

 

Any civil lawyers able to advise?

 

Jon

[DHutch]

Interesting sign. Im interested in the outcome of this topic too.

[MartinClark]

Anybody that has moored in the area from May to October has probably experienced the sudden thump, thump, thump of boots on the roof; the ripping off of their tv aerial etc.

The boat company has absolutely no regard for other boaters whatsoever.

 

It could also be said that anyone who moors along that stretch with aerials or other roof clutter has absolutely no regard for the boat company, that has been operating the horse drawn journeys here for years.

 

I'm sure the operators take care not to damage anything that is on a boat roof, but it can be very difficult to get th etow line over some things. The sign warns boaters of the risk they may be taking by mooring there.

 

Of course the sign is legal, and it seems only fair that BW should warn anyone who is unfamiliar with that stretch of canal that a horsedrawn boat operates there.

 

I'm sure I have heard stories about a well-known commercial horseboat operator on the BCN who would cheerfully let his rope knock everything off the roof of a boat moored along his route.

[dave_2A_]

Leave a bloody great sword sicking up to slice through the rope

[carlt]

Of course the sign is legal, and it seems only fair that BW should warn anyone who is unfamiliar with that stretch of canal that a horsedrawn boat operates there.

To display the sign may be legal, but to use it as a defence, in law would be pointless. Acknowledging that someone's activity may cause damage to someone elses property does not indemnify them.

 

Indeed it may harm their defence.

[dave_2A_]

Too right. If you have a 'Beware of the dog ' sign, and your dog bites someone, you're in deeper sh*t than if you hadn't put up the sign, as it indicates that you were aware of the likelihood of it biting.

[carlt]

I once reported a dangerous sluice to Watford and was informed that we used the canals at our own risk and therefore BW were not liable for any injury or damage, caused by faulty equipment.

 

Once I'd finished laughing and suggested they seek competent legal advice, the sluice was safety fenced off the next day and repaired within a week.

 

There are folk within BW who seem to think they qualify for Crown immunity and to allow a private horse boater to hide behind such flimsy protection is outrageous and unfair to the businessman, as well as the public because, in this case, the horse boat operator will get stung for compo, not BW.

Edited May 30, 2008 by carlt

[cotswoldsman]

I am sometimes amazed at how much stuff people have on the roof of there boat!!

 

Not sure if the sign is legal but as has been mentioned nice to have a warning!! Sometimes I do think BW are a bit sign happy but guess that with all this health and safety stuff they have to cover themselves.

[carlt]

Putting up a sign does not absolve you of your public liability.

 

Besides which, BW are not even liable, in this case. The horse boat operator has a duty of care and, if he damages another person's property, he is liable.

 

It is none of BW's business and they are opening themselves up for criticism, or possible legal action, from the operator, by sticking their oar in.

[stubbs]

the wording on the sign could have been put better, as a request rather than in your face instruction have to agree that the company operating the horse drawn craft has a duty of care

[Dominic M]

Perhaps they could relocate the horse and boat to the vicinity of the nearest canal angling match?

[GSer]

Perhaps they could relocate the horse and boat to the vicinity of the nearest canal angling match?

 

 

Its already there, Kintbury has a very active match fishing scene, and there is little conflict between the anglers and the horsedrawn barge.

 

However I have fallen foul of the ignorance of the one of the operators of the barge, he denied causing any damage to my boat at first, then said i shouldn't have moored where I was (opposite the houses where the river runs off) then when I said er indoors had seen the whole thing he still denied it, I was fuming the TV antenna was one of those fixed to the roof and only stood 4-5" off the roof line.

 

In the end he decided to confess, he was always a gruff miserble old git and it was a pleasure to see him humble for a change.

 

Over the past few years, i've seen the operators drag lots of flowerpots, cycles, poles and planks from the top of moored boats. Most of which would be avoidable if care was taken.

 

The sign/BW shouldn't try and push the responsibility onto the moored boats to tidy up their cabin tops, many boats moor up with no knowledge of the trip boats existance, if they they stayed on board for the evening and the barge comes through with no warning, how could they be to blame

 

Paul

[Bullfrog]

many boats moor up with no knowledge of the trip boats existance, if they they stayed on board for the evening and the barge comes through with no warning, how could they be to blame

 

Paul

 

But ain't that the point of the notice?

[fender]

Leave a bloody great sword sicking up to slice through the rope

 

The old packet boats had swords or cutters that sliced through the ropes of those who didnt get out of the way!

[GSer]

But ain't that the point of the notice?

 

 

Yes but if cruisers don't see the notice? They just pull up and put the kettle on, then Boing! goes the family pot plant into the cut, how can they be held responsible.

 

Perhaps BW sould force all boats on all waterways to have clutter free cabin tops, then fine all the offenders.

[saltysplash]

Putting up a sign does not absolve you of your public liability.

 

Besides which, BW are not even liable, in this case. The horse boat operator has a duty of care and, if he damages another person's property, he is liable.

 

It is none of BW's business and they are opening themselves up for criticism, or possible legal action, from the operator, by sticking their oar in.

 

 

its defo the boat operator who would be liable. causing damage or loss as a result of negligence or even intention if they think they have a right to do so!...might end up civilly rather than criminally but in this day and age of folk getting nicked for breathing anything is possible.

 

IMO its not difficult for a crew to have the pole ready to lift the rope over moored boats, I always thought the pole was a standard part of their equipment

[Paul H]

Hang on, this horsedrawn boat has been operating on the K and A for 40 years. If it and other pioneering trip boats hadn't kept using the canal despite semi-dereliction then there would be no K and A today.

 

The clue is in the name "towpath" and I would be surprised if there wasn't a national byelaw making it an offence to obstruct the towline of any horsedrawn boat anywhere. Of course horseboats are rare these days and in most places there is no need to enforce such a rule. Nor do I think there is any right to moor on a towpath - BW simply allow it in most (but note not all) places. Would you prefer them to designate this a no morring zone?

 

Whilst rudeness on the part of some members of the crew cannot be forgiven, trying to get the towrope over the Wyevale garden centre which some boaters turn their boat roofs into must be a challenge.

 

I think most boaters and members of the public enjoy the rare sight of a rare horseboat. If you don't, then moor somewhere on the other 99.9% of the canal system - or even in a marina where you can even watch the telly without having to come out and say slow down to every passing boat.

 

the notice to me seems entirely fair and reasonable.

 

Rant over.

 

Paul H

[GSer]

Hang on, this horsedrawn boat has been operating on the K and A for 40 years. If it and other pioneering trip boats hadn't kept using the canal despite semi-dereliction then there would be no K and A today.

 

The clue is in the name "towpath" and I would be surprised if there wasn't a national byelaw making it an offence to obstruct the towline of any horsedrawn boat anywhere. Of course horseboats are rare these days and in most places there is no need to enforce such a rule. Nor do I think there is any right to moor on a towpath - BW simply allow it in most (but note not all) places. Would you prefer them to designate this a no morring zone?

 

Whilst rudeness on the part of some members of the crew cannot be forgiven, trying to get the towrope over the Wyevale garden centre which some boaters turn their boat roofs into must be a challenge.

 

I think most boaters and members of the public enjoy the rare sight of a rare horseboat. If you don't, then moor somewhere on the other 99.9% of the canal system - or even in a marina where you can even watch the telly without having to come out and say slow down to every passing boat.

 

the notice to me seems entirely fair and reasonable.

 

Rant over.

 

Paul H

 

 

I don't think anybody would like to see the end of the trip boat at Kintbury, but they are a commercial operation and they should be responsible for their actions, it seems unfair to push all the duty of care onto other canal users.

 

Paul

[saltysplash]

Hang on, this horsedrawn boat has been operating on the K and A for 40 years. If it and other pioneering trip boats hadn't kept using the canal despite semi-dereliction then there would be no K and A today.

 

The clue is in the name "towpath" and I would be surprised if there wasn't a national byelaw making it an offence to obstruct the towline of any horsedrawn boat anywhere. Of course horseboats are rare these days and in most places there is no need to enforce such a rule. Nor do I think there is any right to moor on a towpath - BW simply allow it in most (but note not all) places. Would you prefer them to designate this a no morring zone?

 

Whilst rudeness on the part of some members of the crew cannot be forgiven, trying to get the towrope over the Wyevale garden centre which some boaters turn their boat roofs into must be a challenge.

 

I think most boaters and members of the public enjoy the rare sight of a rare horseboat. If you don't, then moor somewhere on the other 99.9% of the canal system - or even in a marina where you can even watch the telly without having to come out and say slow down to every passing boat.

 

the notice to me seems entirely fair and reasonable.

 

Rant over.

 

Paul H

 

 

I agree that the notice is fair and the fact that the tow path is there for a reason, but even 100 years ago boats still had to pass moored obstructions with chimneys and the like raised skyward, and they passed by raising the rope, no real excuse for making clean sweep of boat roofs these days especially as the rope has a good chance of snagging on stuff and things and causing mayhem to the towed boat.

 

Mind you if i saw the notice and decided to moor in that area i would clear raised items off me horses hoof

[Dominic M]

Hang on, this horsedrawn boat has been operating on the K and A for 40 years. If it and other pioneering trip boats hadn't kept using the canal despite semi-dereliction then there would be no K and A today.

 

The clue is in the name "towpath" and I would be surprised if there wasn't a national byelaw making it an offence to obstruct the towline of any horsedrawn boat anywhere. Of course horseboats are rare these days and in most places there is no need to enforce such a rule. Nor do I think there is any right to moor on a towpath - BW simply allow it in most (but note not all) places. Would you prefer them to designate this a no morring zone?

 

Whilst rudeness on the part of some members of the crew cannot be forgiven, trying to get the towrope over the Wyevale garden centre which some boaters turn their boat roofs into must be a challenge.

 

I think most boaters and members of the public enjoy the rare sight of a rare horseboat. If you don't, then moor somewhere on the other 99.9% of the canal system - or even in a marina where you can even watch the telly without having to come out and say slow down to every passing boat.

 

the notice to me seems entirely fair and reasonable.

 

Rant over.

 

Paul H

I couldn't agree more. Of course, in earlier times, mooring on the towpath was strictly forbidden for obvious reasons by canal companies' byelaws. A horse drawn boat is a great canal attraction. Surely there should be greater tolerance by people if they choose to moor where such a boat operates. Whether the sign is "legal" or not is a side issue - it is placed there (and I dislike excessive numbers of signs in most cases) to advise people that if they choose to moor there, then be prepared for the arrival of Dobbin baccerin' along the towpath. Or should that be tow path? Sorry, I've digressed into the wrong topic.

 

Dominic

[GSer]

I couldn't agree more. Of course, in earlier times, mooring on the towpath was strictly forbidden for obvious reasons by canal companies' byelaws. A horse drawn boat is a great canal attraction. Surely there should be greater tolerance by people if they choose to moor where such a boat operates. Whether the sign is "legal" or not is a side issue - it is placed there (and I dislike excessive numbers of signs in most cases) to advise people that if they choose to moor there, then be prepared for the arrival of Dobbin baccerin' along the towpath. Or should that be tow path? Sorry, I've digressed into the wrong topic.

 

Dominic

 

 

There is not alot of choice of where to more in that area of the K&A, maintainance in the area is poor and huge areas are unavailable for most boats to moor, the visitor moorings at Kinbury are some of the most popular on the canal, with a choice of pubs and shops local and the Railway station is ideally situated.

 

Everybody gets along OK, normally. As I said, it's just unfair that the duty of care has been placed solely on the pleasure boaters shoulders with this sign.

[heckmotor]

The clue is in the name "towpath"

 

Ironically, of all England's canals the K&A is a navigation on which that's particularly debateable. It was closed to navigation for so long that many of its users still refer to the 'cycle path' with some justification ...I had a student colleague in the '70s who used it for much of his weekly bike commute from Basingstoke to Bath University.

 

...not a cyclist or angler, or a horse boat operator, myself, but conflicting leisure agendas on today's canals are never going to sit easily together and the hypersensitive probably need to find somewhere else to relax!

[saltysplash]

I couldn't agree more. Of course, in earlier times, mooring on the towpath was strictly forbidden for obvious reasons by canal companies' byelaws. A horse drawn boat is a great canal attraction.

 

Dominic

 

 

The days of horse drawn traffic are gone, sad to say, and so are the byelaws of the canal companies. The canals are now kept open by pleasure/livaboard users so we all have to have some kind of tolerance and civility to all users.

 

Horse drawn boats are indeed a great canal attraction but that dont give their operators a special status of 'sod everything else'......which i recon most H/D boats would take care anyway when passing moored boats....i hope

 

There is not alot of choice of where to more in that area of the K&A, maintainance in the area is poor and huge areas are unavailable for most boats to moor, the visitor moorings at Kinbury are some of the most popular on the canal, with a choice of pubs and shops local and the Railway station is ideally situated.

 

Everybody gets along OK, normally. As I said, it's just unfair that the duty of care has been placed solely on the pleasure boaters shoulders with this sign.

 

 

Dont be taken in by the sign, its only for info, The duty of care is still on the passing vessel as in any maritime situation.

[sueb]

Sorry you had an unhappy experience. When we moored there last year the people working the trip boat couldn't have been more helpful or considerate. It was me that felt embarassed about hindering them with the amount of crap on our roof.

Sue