Live aboard costs

[Tusses]

I originally posted after a few peeple had said it was more expensive to live on a boat. I was just checking , thats all !

 

I didn't think it would be (and still dont)

 

and definately - the smiles per miles value will be priceless

[NB Alnwick]

The nice thing about living on a (narrow) boat is that you are able to cruise around the network and enjoy visiting a variety of interesting places.

 

This is not really consistent with a frugal lifestyle since it involves using fuel, paying for a 'Gold' licence and mooring fees on rivers as well as visiting many places that charge for admission and, if you are like us, you will also be doing your best to support the excellent variety of canal and riverside pubs and restaurants - with a beer now in the region of £2.50 a pint this is not a cheap way to live. We also like to support the local shops in canal villages - they may not be the same low price bracket as Aldi, Lidl and Tesco but without our support they wouldn't be there!

 

On the other hand if you stay in more or less the same place, move your boat a few hundred yards every fortnight to avoid mooring fees, gather up fallen tree wood for fuel, dump your waste on the tow path, do the absolute minimum in the way of boat maintenance, wear the same clothes for months, never eat out or go to the pub and live on tinned food, it may be a cheaper existence than renting a flat but, honestly, is that really living?

[Tusses]

On the other hand if you stay in more or less the same place, move your boat a few hundred yards every fortnight to avoid mooring fees, gather up fallen tree wood for fuel, dump your waste on the tow path, do the absolute minimum in the way of boat maintenance, wear the same clothes for months, never eat out or go to the pub and live on tinned food, it may be a cheaper existence than renting a flat but, honestly, is that really living?

 

I wouldn't say you completely 'get' cheap living

 

you can move more than a couple of hundred yards everyday whilst you run the engine to charge you batteries and heat the water - which you need to do anyway

 

I do gather fallen wood and 'asked for' pallets for fuel - but I would NEVER dump rubbish anywhere.

 

The absolute minimum in mainenance is NOT a frugal method - as is will no doubt cost more in the long run !

 

A few sets of clothes (regularly washed) are all one needs really - It doesn't spoil the enjoyment of the countryside or place you might visit.

 

We occasionally eat out - lots of pubs to a pint and a curry for a fiver - or two meals for the price of one.

 

not eating out - doesn't have to mean eating out of tins ! I love cooking - and prefer home cooked food to alot of bars and resteraunts efforts !

 

you dont have to be flash with the cash to enjoy living

 

 

[Chris Pink]

dump your waste on the tow path

 

How exactly does dumping your waste on the towpath save you money, do tell, i think i may be missing a trick here.

[NB Alnwick]

How exactly does dumping your waste on the towpath save you money, do tell, i think i may be missing a trick here.

 

BW provide waste/elsan disposal points but they are usually near locks or places where overnight mooring is not ideal. So it may often be necessary to start the engine and cruise some distance to reach them. We prefer to use recycling points whenever we can so we keep our 're-cyclable' items on the boat until we can tie-up near enough to a recycling point.

 

I made the point because during the last three years I have witnessed some fairly disgusting behaviour - such as someone throwing the remains of his Christmas Lunch (including the turkey carcass and several wine bottles) straight into the cut, another person emptying his Thetford cassette in the hedge on a tow path frequented by many walkers and less than a mile from a BW disposal point, and numerous plastic bags containing domestic waste and dog muck simply left on the towpath - sometimes these bags get attacked by rats or foxes so that the contents spill out from the bag.

 

I do not suggest that this sort of behaviour is typical of, or even restricted to, boaters who are trying to enjoy their lifestyle cheaply - I am sure the people who make a mess on the canals would behave in the same way if they lived on the land.

 

The point that I am trying to make is that the canals, the boats (especially those with some history) and the environment require some investment from us all if we are to preserve what we have. Jane and I live on a very modest pension supplemented by part-time work and we do not regard ourselves as extravagant but we try to subscribe as much as we can afford to various canal restoration and preservation projects. We also do whatever we can to support canalside communities.

 

In my opinion it is wrong to attract people on to the waterways on the sole basis that it is a cheaper way of life and a means of avoiding making a reasonable contribution to the community.

[Chris Pink]

BW provide waste/elsan disposal points but they are usually near locks or places where overnight mooring is not ideal. So it may often be necessary to start the engine and cruise some distance to reach them. We prefer to use recycling points whenever we can so we keep our 're-cyclable' items on the boat until we can tie-up near enough to a recycling point.

 

I made the point because during the last three years I have witnessed some fairly disgusting behaviour - such as someone throwing the remains of his Christmas Lunch (including the turkey carcass and several wine bottles) straight into the cut, another person emptying his Thetford cassette in the hedge on a tow path frequented by many walkers and less than a mile from a BW disposal point, and numerous plastic bags containing domestic waste and dog muck simply left on the towpath - sometimes these bags get attacked by rats or foxes so that the contents spill out from the bag.

 

I do not suggest that this sort of behaviour is typical of, or even restricted to, boaters who are trying to enjoy their lifestyle cheaply - I am sure the people who make a mess on the canals would behave in the same way if they lived on the land.

 

The point that I am trying to make is that the canals, the boats (especially those with some history) and the environment require some investment from us all if we are to preserve what we have. Jane and I live on a very modest pension supplemented by part-time work and we do not regard ourselves as extravagant but we try to subscribe as much as we can afford to various canal restoration and preservation projects. We also do whatever we can to support canalside communities.

 

In my opinion it is wrong to attract people on to the waterways on the sole basis that it is a cheaper way of life and a means of avoiding making a reasonable contribution to the community.

 

Well, although your rant contains a lot with which I concur, and even though it is a mite off-topic, I would make these points;

 

i. I don't think that such behaviour is anything to do with the cost of lifestyle, I am sure we all come up with examples from all ends of the income spectrum of dis-respect for the environment (in it's broadest sense). for instance, bags of doggy-poo in the hedge is definitely a middle-class phenomenon, as is your case of turkey and wine bottles - hardly bean stew and Special Brew cans.

 

ii. If you think that this discussion attracts or deters people from the canals on the basis of cost or anything else, you are, sadly, deluding yourself. Motivation is diverse and in most cases internal.

[NB Alnwick]

Well, although your rant contains a lot with which I concur, and even though it is a mite off-topic, I would make these points;

 

i. I don't think that such behaviour is anything to do with the cost of lifestyle, I am sure we all come up with examples from all ends of the income spectrum of dis-respect for the environment (in it's broadest sense). for instance, bags of doggy-poo in the hedge is definitely a middle-class phenomenon, as is your case of turkey and wine bottles - hardly bean stew and Special Brew cans.

 

ii. If you think that this discussion attracts or deters people from the canals on the basis of cost or anything else, you are, sadly, deluding yourself. Motivation is diverse and in most cases internal.

 

I know its slightly but I was trying to address a specific question so it was not really a rant.

 

I am, at times, the original 'Grumpy Old Man' and when I want to, I rant better than Victor Meldrew

 

And I am certainly not in a position to make judgements about a person's affluence based on what they dumped in the cut - the turkey may have been a gift and some supermarkets sell wine very cheaply these days - Tesco's, for example, were advertising some incredibly cheap offers just before Christmas.

 

As to deluding myself - I found out the hard way that the cost of life on the cut is less predictable than some would have us believe. In my view, there is only one reason to live aboard and that is a love or enthusiasm for the inland waterways or anything connected with them.

 

We know of an individual who sold his house and bought a brand new boat after watching a television programme that appeared to imply that living afloat was a cheaper alternative to living on the land. He never learned to handle his boat and needed help when BW insisted that he move from the 14 day mooring that he had occupied since moving aboard six months earlier. He couldn't even steer it! He now completely hates the life and spends most of his time in the pub - he put his boat on the market but cannot sell it for anything like the money he needs to move back to the land. Several people come on to this forum with similar romantic ideas about a cheap lifestyle - and I think it is important that unlike that TV programme we are honest about the costs and the pitfalls.

 

If someone is capable of living within their means on the land and they enjoy living afloat, then they will certainly live as cheaply on a boat (if not cheaper) than in a house but if they cannot afford to live on the land and have no affinity or respect for the inland waterways they are unlikely to benefit by giving up their house or flat and buying a boat.

Edited April 1, 2008 by NB Alnwick

[Chris Pink]

In my view, there is only one reason to live aboard and that is a love or enthusiasm for the inland waterways or anything connected with them.

 

Couldn't agree more....

but....

 

Can you remember what drew you to the canals in the first place?

 

for me, one of the factors was cheap living, but in continuity from a lifestyle that had as an axiom "I want to avoid the oppression caused by big corporations and government who see the provision of an address as an excuse to charge people for everything other than the air they breath". By living on a boat, I control my purchase and use of fuel, i do not require a mortgage, i have a choice about the other expenses of life that are a given in a house.

 

By living on the canals i have come to love them for what they are and the lifestyle i have. I am now evangelical about the preservation of heritage, the community spirit et al.

 

I know and have known many people who come to the canals as a cheap alternative, they divide fairly easily into two camps, those who stay because they love the canals in the way you and i do and those who don't and go back to the land. I know very few people who stay purely as an economic choice, other than the meta-economics above.

 

But you must be careful about labelling people by, income, appearance, political views or any other grouping. The care for the environment (or not) completely transcends such boundaries.

[Tusses]

In my opinion it is wrong to attract people on to the waterways on the sole basis that it is a cheaper way of life and a means of avoiding making a reasonable contribution to the community.

 

I disagree with most of what you have said - or maybe just the way you put it across !

 

Your above sentence is just one of many I could pick out as you inability to separate 'cheap living' and 'low life scum' ! the two dont necessarily go hand in hand you know

 

 

I regularly fish out junk that others have thrown in - is that a contribution ? it certainly doesnt cost me anything to do this !

 

or is it only with money money that we can contribute to the community

 

I'll step down now... others can carry on if they want - but my point should be clear

[Brummage]

I know its slightly but I was trying to address a specific question so it was not really a rant.

 

I am, at times, the original 'Grumpy Old Man' and when I want to, I rant better than Victor Meldrew

 

And I am certainly not in a position to make judgements about a person's affluence based on what they dumped in the cut - the turkey may have been a gift and some supermarkets sell wine very cheaply these days - Tesco's, for example, were advertising some incredibly cheap offers just before Christmas.

 

As to deluding myself - I found out the hard way that the cost of life on the cut is less predictable than some would have us believe. In my view, there is only one reason to live aboard and that is a love or enthusiasm for the inland waterways or anything connected with them.

 

We know of an individual who sold his house and bought a brand new boat after watching a television programme that appeared to imply that living afloat was a cheaper alternative to living on the land. He never learned to handle his boat and needed help when BW insisted that he move from the 14 day mooring that he had occupied since moving aboard six months earlier. He couldn't even steer it! He now completely hates the life and spends most of his time in the pub - he put his boat on the market but cannot sell it for anything like the money he needs to move back to the land. Several people come on to this forum with similar romantic ideas about a cheap lifestyle - and I think it is important that unlike that TV programme we are honest about the costs and the pitfalls.

 

If someone is capable of living within their means on the land and they enjoy living afloat, then they will certainly live as cheaply on a boat (if not cheaper) than in a house but if they cannot afford to live on the land and have no affinity or respect for the inland waterways they are unlikely to benefit by giving up their house or flat and buying a boat.

 

It has to be said that there are a number of people who cash in all their chips for a life on the cut without considering just what they are going to do if the liveaboard life doesn't live up to what they had dreamt it would be. Personally, if I was to ever consider living aboard, there is absolutely no way I would give up my bricks and motar to do it. However, each to their own eh?

[Bones]

I disagree with most of what you have said - or maybe just the way you put it across !

 

Your above sentence is just one of many I could pick out as you inability to separate 'cheap living' and 'low life scum' ! the two dont necessarily go hand in hand you know

 

 

I regularly fish out junk that others have thrown in - is that a contribution ? it certainly doesnt cost me anything to do this !

 

or is it only with money money that we can contribute to the community

 

I'll step down now... others can carry on if they want - but my point should be clear

 

I think you have misunderstood what NB Alnwick is saying (and now I understand why one should never talk about money, he is a nice guy you know), and I really don't think he is saying anything other than there ARE cheap ways of living on the cut, but living on the cut isn't a cheaper way of living.

 

Perhaps cheap ways of living on the cut aren't living at all - which was another of his points.

 

And, no, I am not standing up for anyone here, I just think it is a valid point. I think it is cheaper to live on the cut, but that is for me, and it would be cheaper wherever I lived I also consider the "stress reduced" existence to be worth more than money can buy. To be fair though, when I had a house I lived in that pretty cheaply. Cheap living is a state of mind, and applies whether on land or on water. Being on one or the other doesn't make it cheaper.

Edited April 1, 2008 by Bones

[Tusses]

Couldn't agree more....

but....

 

Can you remember what drew you to the canals in the first place?

 

for me, one of the factors was cheap living, but in continuity from a lifestyle that had as an axiom "I want to avoid the oppression caused by big corporations and government who see the provision of an address as an excuse to charge people for everything other than the air they breath". By living on a boat, I control my purchase and use of fuel, i do not require a mortgage, i have a choice about the other expenses of life that are a given in a house.

 

By living on the canals i have come to love them for what they are and the lifestyle i have. I am now evangelical about the preservation of heritage, the community spirit et al.

 

I know and have known many people who come to the canals as a cheap alternative, they divide fairly easily into two camps, those who stay because they love the canals in the way you and i do and those who don't and go back to the land. I know very few people who stay purely as an economic choice, other than the meta-economics above.

 

But you must be careful about labelling people by, income, appearance, political views or any other grouping. The care for the environment (or not) completely transcends such boundaries.

 

 

OK - Chris said it with a calmer head than me

 

As I started the thread - I may have taken it a bit personally

[Bones]

OK - Chris said it with a calmer head than me

 

As I started the thread - I may have taken it a bit personally

 

 

AH! Now I understand....

[Tusses]

Perhaps cheap ways of living on the cut aren't living at all - which was another of his points.

 

 

And I said I would step down

 

To wake up with the ducks / swans - look out over countryside - read a book on the fore deck in the summer...... is that not living ?

 

Tis my kind of living and costs nothing.

 

Spend Spend Spend - is the kind of living I want to get away from. Out for meals( I love cooking) - overpriced Ale (I brew my own Fine Ales and Wine) - fancy clothes etc etc is that living ?

 

there are may sides to life you know , and each to their own

 

 

not directed at NB Alnwick - just anyone who cant see the joys of nature / solitude and the simple life for itself

[Bones]

edited out because I can.

Edited April 1, 2008 by Bones

[Tusses]

edited out because I can't be bothered.

 

I would be interested in what you have to say !

 

even if I dont like it

Edited April 1, 2008 by Tusses

[Bones]

I would be interested in what you have to say !

 

even if I dont like it

that is very sweet, but I don't actually have anything to say, which is why I took it away! It didn't contribute anything constructive. You have made up your own mind, and that is a good thing. Boats are expensive, and it is, as everyone else has said, a lifestyle thing, not a money thing.

[WJM]

Living on a boat has more potential for avoiding costs. The total cost for paying all your proper 'dues' is comparable to living on land. However, the boating lifestyle has opportunities for avoidance you wont find on land. If you dont pay your rent/mortgage you will get thrown out of your house very quickly, fail to pay your boat license and you could last for months or years before anyone catches up with you. Opportunities misuse the intent of CC licensing are also available. There are other avoidance opportunities too, in areas like council tax, TV License and possibly even income tax. Boating therefore can have appeal for people who like a good duck'n'dive. It is all about the difference between moving targets and static targets.

 

 

 

 

 

[Observational Posting ie: non-judgmental]

[Bones]

Living on a boat has more potential for avoiding costs. The total cost for paying all your proper 'dues' is comparable to living on land. However, the boating lifestyle has opportunities for avoidance you wont find on land. If you dont pay your rent/mortgage you will get thrown out of your house very quickly, fail to pay your boat license and you could last for months or years before anyone catches up with you. Opportunities misuse the intent of CC licensing are also available. There are other avoidance opportunities too, in areas like council tax, TV License and possibly even income tax. Boating therefore can have appeal for people who like a good duck'n'dive. It is all about the difference between moving targets and static targets.

 

 

[Observational Posting ie: non-judgmental]

 

I suppose homlessness is the same sort of thing.

 

 

 

Oooops Sorry -

[Tusses]

as everyone else has said, a lifestyle thing, not a money thing.

 

 

Bones...

The thread didnt start as 'How cheap can I live on the water'

 

I just didn't want to have missed something expensive of my list .

 

As I said about half way through the thread - the lifestyle I want is open contryside - nice views etc

 

I could not afford a house out in the sticks - that's a money thing.

 

Another advantage is that I can move about and see the sites (and if I get a salty boat - the world ! )

 

 

The others...

The cheap - must be good for nothing - abusing the system stuff started later on in the thread.

As the thread starter - I just wanted to defend my point of view that cheap - doesnt have to mean tax dodging , feee avoiding, littering,scum.

 

 

I am sure everyone knows that text on the screen can look a little angrier than it is usually intedned and when people meet face to face the nicer side is plain to see. I am sure I would find most of you agreeable (as I do most people) if we met at a banter, and I hope you would see me as ok too.

[Bones]

Bones...

The thread didnt start as 'How cheap can I live on the water'

 

I just didn't want to have missed something expensive of my list .

 

As I said about half way through the thread - the lifestyle I want is open contryside - nice views etc

 

I could not afford a house out in the sticks - that's a money thing.

 

Another advantage is that I can move about and see the sites (and if I get a salty boat - the world ! )

 

I know.

[Chris Pink]

Boating therefore can have appeal for people who like a good duck'n'dive. It is all about the difference between moving targets and static targets.

 

 

Whereas your point is well made, i think you'll find that there is much opportunity for 'ducking and diving' as you put it in a lifestyle based in bricks and mortar, people who move frequently leaving behind rent and services debts, not to mention the opportunities for housing benefit and other fraud.

 

It could also be said that the social safety nets are easier to access by those in houses and flats. Housing benefit? Winter fuel payments?

 

I am also amused that you should think income tax is easier to avoid on a boat, do tell, i could do with some tips. Or is this another perceptual fallacy?

[WJM]

"I am also amused that you should think income tax is easier to avoid on a boat, do tell, i could do with some tips"

 

My experience of the taxation system here is that is is focused on static targets. Being on the Register of Electors, the Land Registry etc makes you 'exist'. I experienced this when I first arrived in this country. Because i wasn't born here I could watch myself slowly beginning to 'exist' over a number years. An example was when I bought a house but did not have a TV. They had my name (and my existence) from the Land Registry and pestered me constantly for a TV license, yet before that when I rented a flat they never went near me. I fancy that if I could shake off all these trappings, i could melt back into the ether!

 

TV License Detector Vans do not exist - it is all done by looking for the static targets.

[Ex- Member]

ha ha... bulk buying and living on a boat all in the same post... thats raised a smile this morning. I have images of the boat leaving the mooring with 3 inches of freeboard and then in 4 years time its flying high with no ballast left.

 

i thought the idea of living on a boat was not a financial choice but more a lifestyle choice that happens to be slightly cheaper day to day than living a landhouse.

 

comparing a boat with all the financial trappings and windfalls of bricks and mortar owning is like comparing a bird with a fish.

 

I have some side by side comparisons of what it cost me to live in a rented flat and what i thought it would cost me to live in a boat, what it actually costs me to live in a narrowboat and ideas of what i think it will cost me to live in a yacht at the coast or in a marina. I have kept my own lifestyle out of the equation, so food, clothes, mobile phone, internet and all that stuff are omitted

 

the costs of renting a 2 bed flat in south croydon per month, inside the M25:

rent 850

gas 24

electric 24

water 30

council tax 120

commute 0 ( because I was close enough to walk to work)

 

total 1048

 

the costs of living in a 57' narrowboat per month, constantly cruising and commuting to work

mortgage 284 (based on 24000 over 10 years, this is 50% the cost of our boat)

gas/diesel 30 (one 6kg gas bottle each 2.5 months, 1ltr of diesel per day average)

moorings 0

licence 55

commute 200 (by train, car or motorbike)

 

total 569

 

the anticipated costs of living in a 32' yacht by the coast, moored in a marina, commuting to work

mortgage 284 (imagine we can buy a 32'yacht for the same as the narrowboat)

gas/diesel/electric 30

moorings 200-300 (this is based on various marinas around the east and south coast

licence 0

commute 200-400 (depending on which marina or mooring we are based at)

 

 

total 714-1014

 

as you can see, the figures vary considerably, but even living the life of luxury in a posh marina on a nice yacht, it still works out less than a poxy flat in croydon.

 

you do the math, whichever way you fry this egg, living on a boat is generally a much better way of living, therefore all financial costs are paid back with the better way of living. so it always works out BETTER VALUE per hour/day/week/month of living for the money spent.

 

Hi honey

 

The way you have calculaled cost is the same as me. Lifestyle is irrelevant as if you continue an expensive lifestyle on a boat it's no different than to on land. My calculations and estimated figure pew week is based on the basic needs We feel happy to live with. Which is heating by diesel, reliable hot water supply, lighting and a fridge. What more does one need. Obviously a multi burning option would be cheaper if you're happy to to scavenge for wood and chop it up but good on those who do, I'm just lazy At the other end of the scale, we don't want energy consumingnonsense like washing machines, dish washers air con units that many desire. If you want to go to that extreme then costs will almost certainly match that of living in bricks and mortar. So we're somewhere in the middle, and I calculate the living costs to be half that of bricks and mortar in our situation.

 

Regarding bulk buying. We have studied our usage of the items we intend to bulk buy for 4 to 5 years, and the result may surprise you.

Washing liquid. We have found a washing liquid we are well satisfied with, currently living in B & M we use 3 litre containers full that last approximately 3 months, this is with regular washing of work clothes currently, so usage should drop when on the boat. However we'll calculate what we use now.

 

Laundry washing liquid 3 l bottel 1 every 3 months for 5 years supply = 20 bottles = 60 kilos

Washing up liquid, 5 litre container plumbed to sink, lasts 6 months. 5 year supply 10 containers 50 kilos.

Fabric conditioner concentrate 1.5 litre bottle lasts 3 months 5 year supply 20 bottles + 30 kilos

Hand soaps 500ml containers last 2 months av 25 bottles = 12.5 kilos.

No more detergents required. Use of micrifibre cloths.

The remainder of bulk buy are lighter items calculated as follows.

Deodourants 30 500ml bottles 1.5 kilos I use crystal stone 2" cubes 6 pack lasts years

Disposable razors 1000 5 kilos

Kitchen foil cling film, food bags lets be generous at 10 kilos.

 

Total 169 kilos, just over 3 paving slabs, of a an overweight guest on board LOl or half a tank of fuel. Really doesn't make much odds on a boat expected to weigh 38 tonnes.

 

We will also buy in dried foods in bulk, but 3 or more likely 6 monthly, so not any significant weight. The main reason for this is not to save money, it just makes shopping easier, that fact that you can save a lot of money doing this as well, is just an added bonus

Edited April 1, 2008 by Julynian

[Enforcer]

edited out because I can.

 

 

and me