NEC SHOW

[mizpah]

Hi has anyone been to the outdoor show at the NEC this week ? is the boat part worth going to see ?

[Chickadee]

Hope so we have got tickets for sunday and i'm quite excited! (so sad!)

[tony collins]

Hi has anyone been to the outdoor show at the NEC this week ? is the boat part worth going to see ?

 

Hall one is for boats. A reasonable selection of boating products. about a dozen, (didn't count em) Narrow boats. Boats of every other type including a very interesting folding 12ft dinghy thing which folds down to 4 inches high. I did notice that you could buy a very smart 4 berth off shore sports cruiser for £60k the next boat I looked at was a narrowboat for smidge under £90k. Makes you think.....

 

Several stands selling bits of chandlery.

 

There were more Motorhomes than anything else, (halls 3 & 4) with towed caravans a close second (hall 5) Park homes and static caravans in hall 2.

 

Tony

 

BTW, Did you/doyou have a boat called Mizpah, based on a tug with a forward cabin?

Edited February 19, 2008 by tony collins

[GRPCruiserman]

Went yesterday, ewally enjoyed it apart from the three hour drive in each direction (only used to take two hours, traffic's got a LOT worse). Not been fpr a few years and it's grown out of all proportion!! Only just got to see everything by 6!!

 

It you're only in to narrow boats, I think it's dies the death to be honest, only a few in one side of the boat hall, and very little in the way of rosies and castles etc. Got the impression the bespoke narrow boat building industry has died the death in the last few years, just a few mass producers left!!

 

From my personal point of view, I feel a lot more positive, there were a LOT of affordable GRP cruisers there as VERY reasonable prices, in fact there was a Shetland 4 plus 2, bit like a Norman 22 in layout, for about £19000, and you don't get much narrow boat for that. Plenty of more seagoing craft too, the Macgregor 26 sailing cruiser with a big engine would be what I'd buy at £19000 with the engine and trailer. Loads of room, ability to sail (no fuel costs) or use the engine when the wind drops, and even go on the canal if you don't put the mast up and you're not bothered about the narrow canals. Cracking value to me.

 

There was even a Fletcher 14 foot speed boat almost identical to one my parents had when I was about 10 years old, must be the same mould, now THAT took me back.

 

Biggest high poimt for me was sitting in a brand new Land Rover Defender 110, better than ANY of the plastic 4x4s you see and are popular, and once you've bought one you'd NEVER EVER have to buy another car, they last forever!! I want one!!

 

My wife and 5 year old loved playing in the canoes, and there is a large tent hall now for tenties among you.

 

We went to get a new cooker for our caravan, but there were very few 'bits' stalls, all arranged around the outside of the halls. If you want satellite TV you had a plethora of stalls selling the equipment at what I thought were very high prices (seem a lot cheaper on the internet from reputable dealers). I wanted to buy a Flavel Vanessa two burners and a grill (we've got the oven!!) but no-where were they to be found. Towsure have a 'Superstore' type stall and there are a few of the other big names, but very little chandlery and nothing was cheap. We spent about £2 all day and have come home with enough free pens to last about 10 years, and with the possibility of winning about 100000 prizes (probably going on the same number of mailing lists!!).

 

From a canal point of view, I am VERY happy as it looks like GRP does have a future and there were GRP boats for every price range.

 

With some clever marketing it would be so easy to bring the canals back to life by promoting their sales to people for use on the canals. However, British Waterways did not appear to have a stall, at least I didn't see it (apologies if I missed it) and with their current policy of pricing all but the very high earners off the canals, I think it'll continue to be shiney narrow boats until the point where the canals die the death due to the lack on new users being able to afford to use them.

 

British Waterways obviously don't feel that the most important leisure show of the year (you note I said 'leisure show' not 'canal show' as people who attend canal events already know about canals as a rule!!) is somewhere to promote their activities.

 

I am being to mourn the now imminent loss of our canal system to the masses, but see joy in the fact that the boating industry as a whole is returning to GRP and promoting boating in a vibrant and thriving way where it is still affordable to all, ie the sea, lakes, and other waterways of our country.

[Teadaemon]

From my personal point of view, I feel a lot more positive, there were a LOT of affordable GRP cruisers there as VERY reasonable prices, in fact there was a Shetland 4 plus 2, bit like a Norman 22 in layout, for about £19000, and you don't get much narrow boat for that. Plenty of more seagoing craft too, the Macgregor 26 sailing cruiser with a big engine would be what I'd buy at £19000 with the engine and trailer. Loads of room, ability to sail (no fuel costs) or use the engine when the wind drops, and even go on the canal if you don't put the mast up and you're not bothered about the narrow canals. Cracking value to me.

 

An interesting choice, considering that everyone I've ever seen/heard comment on this boat has been rather scathing to say the least. From what I've seen the Mac' 26 manages to combine the negative points of a (water ballasted, centreboard) sailing boat and a small planing power boat into one package, whilst having very few of the advantages of either. I have absolutely no idea why they're so popular (well actually I do, but for reasons of politeness I'll refrain from commenting), but it is interesting to see the number of nearly new Mac 26 or similar boats appearing for sale - it seems a lot of people are either put off boats altogether by them, or after a small amount of use they get sold to make way for a more sensible and seaworthy design (either sail or power, not half and half).

[WJM]

Are GRP boats actually made of Glass (reinforced plastic). Twenty years ago there were many canoes made of glass fibers but these days GRP canoes just dont exist. They were just far too brittle and hard to maintain (capillary action) For really basic boats, roto-moulded plastic is used but for 'proper' canoes several other fibers have taken over, nylon/diolen, kevlar, carbon and mixes of all three. If I had a plastic cruiser I would want it to be made of carbon/kevlar reinforced plastic.

[Teadaemon]

Are GRP boats actually made of Glass (reinforced plastic). Twenty years ago there were many canoes made of glass fibers but these days GRP canoes just dont exist. They were just far too brittle and hard to maintain (capillary action) For really basic boats, roto-moulded plastic is used but for 'proper' canoes several other fibers have taken over, nylon/diolen, kevlar, carbon and mixes of all three. If I had a plastic cruiser I would want it to be made of carbon/kevlar reinforced plastic.

 

Most GRP boats these days are still made from both glass fibre and polyester resins, though construction techniques have come on a lot since the 1950s and 60s. There's no sensible reason for making anything larger than a canoe from carbon fibre and kevlar based composites unless it's an out and out racing boat where cost is not an issue. Roto-moulded plastic is becoming a bit more common for tenders and small dinghies, but I'd imagine the machinery and mould costs for building bigger boats in this way would probably be prohibitive.

[GRPCruiserman]

An interesting choice, considering that everyone I've ever seen/heard comment on this boat has been rather scathing to say the least. From what I've seen the Mac' 26 manages to combine the negative points of a (water ballasted, centreboard) sailing boat and a small planing power boat into one package, whilst having very few of the advantages of either. I have absolutely no idea why they're so popular (well actually I do, but for reasons of politeness I'll refrain from commenting), but it is interesting to see the number of nearly new Mac 26 or similar boats appearing for sale - it seems a lot of people are either put off boats altogether by them, or after a small amount of use they get sold to make way for a more sensible and seaworthy design (either sail or power, not half and half).

 

You could well be right, I've never sailed one!! I must admit the principles of water ballast and drop keel on a boat so big doesn't really inspire confidence, but you seem to get a bit of everything, so with the possibilty of mooring on a tidal (ie cheap) mooring and being able to go pretty quick when necessary, but also being able to tow it and therefore change location easily and low repair costs without haul out etc, and still be able to go on the canals as well on a short term licence seemed appealing.

 

I used to have a Valiant 18 sailing cruiser with fixed bilge keels which sialed superbly for a twin keeler, and was very forgiving, plus could dry out vertically, and was easility towable with the Volco 240 2.1 litre I had at the time, but actually recovering from the water was a nightmare as you needed a slipway that went to a depth of three foot but wasn't too stepp for the car to manage to pull it out!! It was also too deep for the canal, and the 4 hp engine I had on it was useless against the tide, but it sailed a lot faster so that wasn't really a problem, in fact I used to use the engine AND sails together to punch a fast tide. It slept four though which was good for an 18 foot boat.

 

The Norman 20 I had was the best overall all rounder, but you loose the sailing ability, so if I was buying just to use on the canal, then the Shetland I think was the best value, cheap on licence etc but still not too expensive.

 

I've not read any reviews on the Macgregor, it just seemed a good idea to have all in one, perhaps a case of 'Jack of all Trades' from what you have said.

 

My main point was to re-enforce what a previous posted had said, ie for under £20000 you can get a cracker of a GRP boat for whatever you want, whereas for a shiney narrowboat, you have to multiply by 3 or 4, but I suppose mooring and licence are now 3 or 4 times the cost of tidal use so if you can afford one, you can afford the other. I'll stick to seas and lakes for now.

[onthecut]

Biggest high poimt for me was sitting in a brand new Land Rover Defender 110, better than ANY of the plastic 4x4s you see and are popular, and once you've bought one you'd NEVER EVER have to buy another car, they last forever!! I want one!!

 

Amen Brother !

 

Mike.

[WJM]

Ah - Polyester resin, that old relic! Another thing we have not seen in canoe manufacture for years. Epoxy resins took over from that gelatinous gunge years ago! Seriously though, polyester is very poor at wetting fibers compared to the newer stuff (and wet fibers are crucial to strength and durability). An additional technique very popular now is to put the wet mould into a vacuum bag to wet the fibers even more than can be achieved by hand layup alone.

 

Sounds to me like the world of GRP boats has a bit of 'growing up' to do. Even the most mundane workaday canoe these days is made of epoxy and nylon. When I look back to the days of glass fiber canoes I shudder to think of how we used to have to pussyfoot around with our brittle boats. Modern composites have transformed the sport.

 

 

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No wonder the big white plastics look so worried when you drive your steel narrowboat into a lock behind them! A good thump and they would sink. Kevlar/Carbon for me any-day!

Edited February 20, 2008 by WJM

[Teadaemon]

Ah - Polyester resin, that old relic! Another thing we have not seen in canoe manufacture for years. Epoxy resins took over from that gelatinous gunge years ago! Seriously though, polyester is very poor at wetting fibers compared to the newer stuff (and wet fibers are crucial to strength and durability). An additional technique very popular now is to put the wet mould into a vacuum bag to wet the fibers even more than can be achieved by hand layup alone.

 

Sounds to me like the world of GRP boats has a bit of 'growing up' to do. Even the most mundane workaday canoe these days is made of epoxy and nylon. When I look back to the days of glass fiber canoes I shudder to think of how we used to have to pussyfoot around with our brittle boats. Modern composites have transformed the sport.

================================================

 

No wonder the big white plastics look so worried when you drive your steel narrowboat into a lock behind them! A good thump and they would sink. Kevlar/Carbon for me any-day!

 

I'll address your last point first, as it won't take long. If you hit a boat made from carbon/kevlar and epoxy with a 20 ton narrowboat then it'll crunch just as easily as one made from glass fibre and polyester resin, possibly more easily (since the laminate is likely to be considerably thinner).

 

As for polyester resins and glass fibre being obsolete, I'd suggest that applies only in the world of canoes. It's perfectly possible to build sturdy, long-lasting yachts and motor cruisers from hand laid-up glass and polyester resins (just look at the number of 40-45 year old Westerly 22s and 25s that are still in relatively good nick, though I'll admit that most other GRP boats from that period haven't fared anything like as well, mainly due to poor initial construction rather than any limitation of the materials themselves). Modern construction techniques and machinery (including the ability to vacuum-bag a 40-50 foot hull moulding) have improved the standard of mass-produced GRP boats to the point where most boats built by large boatbuilders today should be reasonably free from defects in the laminate and should be strong enough to cope with most regular use (they tend to fall to pieces if they pound on the bottom or hit rocks at speed, but then so do most boats, whatever they're constructed from). Vinylester and epoxy resins see some use, but it's unusual to find them used exclusively, except in pure racing boats or a custom build (which is very expensive). Similarly, carbon fibre and kevlar are used, but only when appropriate (as I keep saying, in racing vessels where the design brief is to be as light, stiff, and fast as possible, rather than most boats where the goal is to be as strong and stiff as possible whilst still being affordable and having reasonable performance). Carbon fibre spars and sails/rigging made from various exotic materials are becoming more common, even on cruising yachts, but that's as far as I see them going at the moment (it's also the area where they make most difference to reliability and performance).

[WJM]

Fair points but you are wrong about the relative strengths of modern composites verses the older ones. Fiberglass canoes used to smash in half on a strong impact. The new phenomena with modern boats where the canoeist bursts his knees because the boat simply does not break or damage in any way. The boat bounces off unmarked and all the energy transmits to the paddler. It has totally transformed wild water canoeing, greatly extending the types rivers that can be run and the risks that can be taken. As well as being significantly stronger, modern canoes are now about about half the weight of their older counterparts and last so much longer. Part of this longevity is due to the absence of capillary 'rot' you get with glass fibers.

 

 

But generally, any business that is still doing things much the same as they did twenty years ago is either in the heritage and restoration market or going out of business! I am just very surprised to see such old technology still in use.

[blackrose]

But generally, any business that is still doing things much the same as they did twenty years ago is either in the heritage and restoration market or going out of business! I am just very surprised to see such old technology still in use.

 

Does that apply to steel canal boats too?

[WJM]

I see modern canal boats as having one foot very firmly in the past. Why else do they imitate the shapes of the working boats so closely? From an aesthetic perspective, canal boats have lots of heritage cues to their design while river cruisers start from a clean sheet.

 

That said, I expect the quality of the steel has improved over the decades as has the methods of construction.

[blackrose]

I see modern canal boats as having one foot very firmly in the past. Why else do they imitate the shapes of the working boats so closely? From an aesthetic perspective, canal boats have lots of heritage cues to their design while river cruisers start from a clean sheet.

 

That said, I expect the quality of the steel has improved over the decades as has the methods of construction.

 

Well, to some extent it's just because the locks are a certain shape, but I see your point - canal boats are at least partly in the heritage market. Having said that, I'm sure the shape of my boat doesn't resemble anything from the past

Edited February 20, 2008 by blackrose

[Teadaemon]

Fair points but you are wrong about the relative strengths of modern composites verses the older ones. Fiberglass canoes used to smash in half on a strong impact. The new phenomena with modern boats where the canoeist bursts his knees because the boat simply does not break or damage in any way. The boat bounces off unmarked and all the energy transmits to the paddler. It has totally transformed wild water canoeing, greatly extending the types rivers that can be run and the risks that can be taken. As well as being significantly stronger, modern canoes are now about about half the weight of their older counterparts and last so much longer. Part of this longevity is due to the absence of capillary 'rot' you get with glass fibers.

But generally, any business that is still doing things much the same as they did twenty years ago is either in the heritage and restoration market or going out of business! I am just very surprised to see such old technology still in use.

 

The old technology is still in use because it does the job well enough that very few people are prepared to pay an enormous premium for newer materials that offer little or no benefit to the vast majority of boat owners. If people were prepared to buy more boats built with expensive, exotic materials then I'm certain more boatbuilders would build boats from them.

 

As for your comments about the relative strength of GRP and carbon/kevlar/epoxy, I'd strongly suggest that you're incorrect, at least in most circumstances. Whilst I accept that canoes made from these materials will exhibit the behaviour you mention, it's definitely not true to say that a larger vessel built using the same materials and techniques will exhibit similar behaviour. If you really want to disagree, please start actually doing the calculations and giving us some hard facts to debate. At the moment all we've established is that it's difficult to build a strong and durable canoe from GRP, and that with carbon fibre, kevlar and epoxy it's possible to build a canoe that's stronger than the human inside it.

[WJM]

Lets just agree to differ. My experience of manufacturing is that standing still is going backwards. It is hard to think of any manufactured product that has not improved over the last few decades, cruiser hulls perhaps? :-) And as for calculations; I will leave that for an engineering forum!

 

 

Like so many other manufactured products, canoes have not changed in price, despite the constant upgrading of their specifications. I cant see that this is due is economies of scale so I suspect it is in efficiencies in production methods and reduced material costs. Why not the same for river cruisers?

[mizpah]

So , the show ? not worth it then ?

[carlt]

Like so many other manufactured products, canoes have not changed in price, despite the constant upgrading of their specifications. I cant see that this is due is economies of scale so I suspect it is in efficiencies in production methods and reduced material costs. Why not the same for river cruisers?

Because river cruisers are aimed at a less specialist market.

 

If you go to the top end of the cruiser market you see far more utilisation of advanced composites, state of the art electronics, expensive hardwoods and innovative hull design.

 

You go to the bottom end of the canoe market and you see a plastic tube with a taper at each end.

 

Your £90 low tech canoe is the equivalent of your £5k plastic cruiser.

Edited February 20, 2008 by carlt

[matrix]

So , the show ? not worth it then ?

 

 

went today

and if your just going to look at narrow boats or canal related stuff then i would give it a miss

but if you just want to look around for equipment or at the latest gadgets n gizmo's

then just go in the caravan halls ( 4 and 5 i think ) theres loads of small stalls there

well worth a look

[Big John]

went today

and if your just going to look at narrow boats or canal related stuff then i would give it a miss

but if you just want to look around for equipment or at the latest gadgets n gizmo's

then just go in the caravan halls ( 4 and 5 i think ) theres loads of small stalls there

well worth a look

Anybody going on Friday? Want to meet for a bevy?

 

[Dutch]

I went yesterday and to be honest for narrowboaters a waste of time just 3 builders there, New boatcompany,Amber and Otter aluminium boats,very little Chandlery to be seen

[fuzzyduck]

Not me, I'm having a low tech relic, that just hasn't managed to break it's back surveyed.

 

Funny thing is, the surveyor described them, and let me quote him "built like brick s*&thouses" Even some of the oldest GRP cruisers are still around, and in vast numbers. sure, some of em might be getting a bit "soggy" but to be honest, they're doing remarkably well. (look at the numbers of Dawncraft and Norman cruisers still doing the rounds)

 

a few weeks ago I had a Mk2 Elysian surveyed, it needed a Gel peel, and the owner wouldn't drop his price enough to make it economical for me, but it was doing very very well for a 38+ year old boat, and it was in no way remarkable. It will be interesting to see how the modern vacuum bagged hulls, with the better gel coats last. I suspect a modern Viking or Shetland type cruiser will be with us in 50 years. (assuming it's not been rearended in a lock)

Edited February 20, 2008 by fuzzyduck

[WJM]

"Your £90 low tech canoe is the equivalent of your £5k plastic cruiser."

 

Except that it is totally different (ie: better) than the equivalent canoe from twenty years ago - which was my point in the first place!

 

British industry seems to suffer from this disease of complacency (cars, airplanes, etc). Perhaps the cruiser industry is more isolated from imports because of the small size and relative isolation of the market and of course the sheer physical size of the product. But eventually it will happen, watch out, the Poles, Chineese, Dutch, Germans etc etc are coming, just like they did with every other thing britain used to manufacture!

 

 

(BTW: There are almost no canoe manufacturers left in britain, the country that once led the world in that industry)

Edited February 20, 2008 by WJM

[Sandra F]

NEC show - as others said, bit of a waste of time for narrowboaters. Only six or eight boats, one or two chandlery stalls and the IWA stand - didn't find any restoration group or shared ownership stands, or other related stands. Maybe they were tucked away in the main body of the hall, with the £200,000+ seagoing boats.

 

Was BWB there? - might have been able to get a response instead of being ignored about my ongoing complaint about the state of my local towpath, or the dangers in the secondary wooden/twigs/wire bank liners (towpath side) they are putting in here too.

 

The good news? - magazine buyers discounted tickets, and free bus and train travel to get there.

 

(Perhaps it should be renamed "The Seagoing Boat and Motor Home Show")

 

Incidentally, did we spot it right? the displayed prices of coffee and sandwiches etc in the large perimeter cafes were actually before VAT?, and if so, how do they get away with that?