Best Stern for Single Handed

[IanD]

27 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

 

Because of what you posted at 1559 yesterday which other posters - myself included - clearly read as suggesting that you can't stand in front of the tiller on a trad.

 

Perhaps you'd like to clarify what you meant?  

Aha -- do you mean where I said this?

 

"I should also point out that on a cruiser stern you can stand or sit safely forward of the arc of the tiller, on a trad (stern) you can't."

 

-- (stern) added just now...

 

What I meant by "on a (cruiser) stern" was "outside on the stern deck", but I now realise that wasn't clear -- of course with a trad stern you can stand inside the doors or sit on the roof (but not always *on* the stern* outside, which is what I meant), and I've often done both. So apologies if this caused misunderstanding... 🙂

 

You can also sometimes tuck into the front port corner at the edge of the stern and have enough space for the tiller to swing past you, depending on the exact shape/size of the stern, length of tiller, and girth and arm length of steerer -- for example I can do this but SWMBO can't...

 

When going ahead and cruising there's very little risk when standing alongside the tiller, as many boaters do -- anything which hits the tiller is very unlikely to knock it sideways enough to throw you overboard. But when going astern or in a lock the risk is much bigger, and I think it's under these circumstances when the fatalities referred to above happened, and led to the coining of the term "suicide seats". Wasn't this also suspected as contributing to the death in Harecastle Tuneel?

Edited May 22, 2023 by IanD

[cuthound]

1 hour ago, IanD said:

You really shouldn't guess things you don't know about... 😉

 

Why do you think I haven't seen -- or steered -- one -- actually, several -- where you can stand in front of the tiller?

 

I get really tired of the CWDF "I know better than you" brigade sometimes, especially when this is based on zero evidence or knowledge... 😞

 

Because you said so. "I should also point out that on a cruiser stern you can stand or sit safely forward of the arc of the tiller, on a trad you can't."

[IanD]

1 minute ago, cuthound said:

 

Because you said so. "I should also point out that on a cruiser stern you can stand or sit safely forward of the arc of the tiller, on a trad you can't."

See above -- my fault for not being clear what I meant 🙂

 

And if somebody had asked if that was what I really meant instead of doing the usual "he's an idiot" sniping, I'd probably have responded less strongly and the whole argument could have been avoided... 😉

Edited May 22, 2023 by IanD

[Captain Pegg]

7 minutes ago, IanD said:

Aha -- do you mean where I said this?

 

"I should also point out that on a cruiser stern you can stand or sit safely forward of the arc of the tiller, on a trad (stern) you can't."

 

-- (stern) added just now...

 

What I meant by "on a (cruiser) stern" was "outside on the stern deck", but I now realise that wasn't clear -- of course with a trad stern you can stand inside the doors or sit on the roof (but not always *on* the stern* outside, which is what I meant), and I've often done both. So apologies if this caused misunderstanding... 🙂

 

You can also sometimes tuck into the front port corner at the edge of the stern and have enough space for the tiller to swing past you, depending on the exact shape/size of the stern, length of tiller, and girth and arm length of steerer -- for example I can do this but SWMBO can't...

 

When going ahead and cruising there's very little risk when standing alongside the tiller, as many boaters do -- anything which hits the tiller is very unlikely to knock it sideways enough to throw you overboard. But when going astern or in a lock the risk is much bigger, and I think it's under these circumstances when the fatalities referred to above happened, and led to the coining of the term "suicide seats". Wasn't this also suspected as contributing to the death in Harecastle Tuneel?

 

I'd say "...should stand inside the doors..." rather than "...can stand inside the doors..." on a trad.

 

An old style trad will always have a step for the purpose of standing on to steer. Not all modern trads have them because the engine box cover can double up as a step.

 

I cringe when I see folk on a trad stood to one side of the counter alongside the tiller.

 

 

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, IanD said:

See above -- my fault for not being clear what I meant 🙂

 

And if somebody had asked if that was what I really meant instead of doing the usual "he's an idiot" sniping, I'd probably have responded less strongly and the whole argument could have been avoided... 😉

 

Where have you dreamt up the notion that people thouhht you are an idiot?

 

You are just making that up.

 

The problem was your original comment which was quite clear and taken as written.

 

So the problem that lead to the 'argument' lies at your door, nobody elses.

[IanD]

3 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

 

I'd say "...should stand inside the doors..." rather than "...can stand inside the doors..." on a trad.

 

An old style trad will always have a step for the purpose of standing on to steer. Not all modern trads have them because the engine box cover can double up as a step.

 

I cringe when I see folk on a trad stood to one side of the counter alongside the tiller.

 

 

Not arguing that it's good practice -- but is there really any significant risk when going ahead?

 

Going astern or in a lock, absolutely, don't do it, people have been killed. But AFAIK there's no recorded case of anyone doing this being killed or injured by the tiller swinging over when going ahead. Or is there? 😉

Edited May 22, 2023 by IanD

[Lily Rose]

8 minutes ago, IanD said:

See above -- my fault for not being clear what I meant 🙂

 

 

 

But even your "corrected" version, with the word stern added, is simply not true. I've been standing directly in front of my tiller, outside the trad stern doors and not in the arc of the tiller, for the last 8 years (I really must sit down now!) with no problem whatsoever. I've also seen many other people doing exact same thing.

 

So either you're not properly explaining what you mean or you are wrong.

[IanD]

Just now, Lily Rose said:

 

But even your "corrected" version, with the word stern added, is simply not true. I've been standing directly in front of my tiller, outside the trad stern doors and not in the arc of the tiller, for the last 8 years (I really must sit down now!) with no problem whatsoever. I've also seen many other people doing exact same thing.

 

So either you're not properly explaining what you mean or you are wrong.

Then you must have a longer trad stern or a shorter tiller than any of the trad stern boats (or semi-trad) I've been on, where the tiller pretty much reaches the doors.

[Captain Pegg]

1 minute ago, IanD said:

 

Not arguing that it's good practice -- but is there really any significant risk when going ahead?

 

Going astern or in a lock, absolutely, don't do it, people have been killed. But AFAIK there's no recorded case of anyone doing this being killed or injured by the tiller swinging over when going ahead. Or is there? 😉

 

It's not so much the risk of being wiped off the counter as that you can't actually steer the boat properly from that position. To pull the tiller hard over toward you would in general mean first steering the opposite way so you can access the position you should have been in all along or otherwise taking to the gunwale.

[cuthound]

4 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

 

I'd say "...should stand inside the doors..." rather than "...can stand inside the doors..." on a trad.

 

An old style trad will always have a step for the purpose of standing on to steer. Not all modern trads have them because the engine box cover can double up as a step.

 

I cringe when I see folk on a trad stood to one side of the counter alongside the tiller.

 

 

 

Yes far too many modern trads have the floor inside the hatches too low to stand on and see properly over the cabin. I solved this on mine by making a wide tool box, which doubles up as a steering step.

[IanD]

Just now, cuthound said:

 

Yes far too many modern trads have the floor inside the hatches too low to stand on and see properly over the cabin. I solved this on mine by making a wide tool box, which doubles up as a steering step.

 

Given the things some boats have on their roofs like plants and piles of junk, even that isn't going to help them see "properly over the cabin" -- I was nearly hit head-on by a boat like this a few years back who obviously couldn't see a damn thing over their roof jungle, including an oncoming boat... 😞

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

Given the things some boats have on their roofs like plants and piles of junk, even that isn't going to help them see "properly over the cabin" -- I was nearly hit head-on by a boat like this a few years back who obviously couldn't see a damn thing over their roof jungle, including an oncoming boat... 😞

 

It would if it was high enough.

 

What was it you said yesterday about 'arguing for the sake of it?

 

Strewth.

 

 

Edited May 22, 2023 by M_JG

[IanD]

3 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

 

It's not so much the risk of being wiped off the counter as that you can't actually steer the boat properly from that position. To pull the tiller hard over toward you would in general mean first steering the opposite way so you can access the position you should have been in all along or otherwise taking to the gunwale.

I'm confused -- surely if you're standing next to the tiller you can just step to the left or the right and take the tiller with you? Yes if you need to pull it hard to port you end up in the front corner next to the gunwale, but then if you're standing on the step you have to push it across behind you and change hands which is just as awkward, and you might not be able to push it as far over either. I've never had any big problem steering from either position, but I certainly wouldn't stand alongside the tiller in a lock...

[Lily Rose]

4 minutes ago, IanD said:

Then you must have a longer trad stern or a shorter tiller than any of the trad stern boats (or semi-trad) I've been on, where the tiller pretty much reaches the doors.

 

The stern looks pretty standard to me.

 

The tiller is the one that came with the boat, again it looks pretty standard to me though I have also seen longer ones. I can only assume plenty of other folk have a similar length tiller judging by the number of people I see standing in the same position. 

 

[Captain Pegg]

4 minutes ago, IanD said:

Then you must have a longer trad stern or a shorter tiller than any of the trad stern boats (or semi-trad) I've been on, where the tiller pretty much reaches the doors.

 

To be fair I can't recall steering a trad where there was proper clearance to enable the steerer to stand directly ahead of the tiller but on the counter. Nonetheless they clearly do exist. The tiller on Vulpes marginally oversails the rear of the cabin.

[IanD]

4 minutes ago, Lily Rose said:

 

The stern looks pretty standard to me.

 

The tiller is the one that came with the boat, again it looks pretty standard to me though I have also seen longer ones. I can only assume plenty of other folk have a similar length tiller judging by the number of people I see standing in the same position. 

 

So if you have enough room on your boat, then stand there. Other boats are different and there's no space to do this, including several that I've been on, and @Captain Pegg. YMMV... 😉

Edited May 22, 2023 by IanD

[Lily Rose]

2 minutes ago, IanD said:

So if you have enough room on your boat, then stand there. Other boats are different and there's no space to do this.

 

I have and I do. As do many other people. I never suggested all boats or all tillers are like mine.

 

You, on the other hand, said...

 

 "I should also point out that on a cruiser stern you can stand or sit safely forward of the arc of the tiller, on a trad you can't." 

 

To my mind, and to others on here by the looks of it, that seemed to imply that those last 6 words applied to all trad stern boats.

 

[Guest]

[Captain Pegg]

10 minutes ago, IanD said:

I'm confused -- surely if you're standing next to the tiller you can just step to the left or the right and take the tiller with you? Yes if you need to pull it hard to port you end up in the front corner next to the gunwale, but then if you're standing on the step you have to push it across behind you and change hands which is just as awkward, and you might not be able to push it as far over either. I've never had any big problem steering from either position, but I certainly wouldn't stand alongside the tiller in a lock...

 

If I tried that on Vulpes I think I'd end up outside of the profile of the boat which is a really stupid place to be while holding the tiller. Steering from the step is simple.

 

 

Edited May 22, 2023 by Captain Pegg

[IanD]

1 minute ago, Captain Pegg said:

 

If I tried that on Vulpes I think I'd end up outside of the profile of the boat which is a really stupid place to be be while holding the tiller. Steering from the step is simple.

 

 

Like I said, it all depends on the shape of the stern -- I guess Vulpes has a short and tapered elliptical stern so it's quite narrow where the rear doors are? On some boats there's definitely enough width to stand "in the corner" safely, I've done it.

[Lily Rose]

 

The stern on the boat in in MJ_G's photo looks very similar to mne. My tiller, however, does not reach that far forward and leaves me room to stand immediately in front of it without having to step forward of the doors.

[Captain Pegg]

2 minutes ago, M_JG said:

 

That shows the point nicely. No room on that counter for a steerer to operate the boat properly and safely in my opinion. @Lily Rose do you have a photo of yours you'd be willing to share?

 

(I'm aware there's a few photos of mine taken this past weekend now on social media where it's being steered correctly but I'm cleaning the cabin sides from the gunwales while underway 😱).

[IanD]

Just now, Lily Rose said:

 

The stern on the boat in in MJ_G's photo looks very similar to mne. My tiller, however, does not reach that far forward and leaves me room to stand immediately in front of it without having to step forward of the doors.

Like I said, different boats are different. Yours has room to stand there, many others (most trad sterns?) don't.

[Captain Pegg]

2 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

Like I said, it all depends on the shape of the stern -- I guess Vulpes has a short and tapered elliptical stern so it's quite narrow where the rear doors are? On some boats there's definitely enough width to stand "in the corner" safely, I've done it.

 

No. it's circular.

[IanD]

9 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

 

That shows the point nicely. No room on that counter for a steerer to operate the boat properly and safely in my opinion. @Lily Rose do you have a photo of yours you'd be willing to share?

 

(I'm aware there's a few photos of mine taken this past weekend now on social media where it's being steered correctly but I'm cleaning the cabin sides from the gunwales while underway 😱).

On that boat I agree there isn't room. On others (e.g. Lily Rose) there is. It all depends on the shape/taper/length of the stern and the length of the tiller.

Edited May 22, 2023 by IanD