Engine Identification

[Batavia]

Not in a boat but I was wondering if anyone here can identify this Diesel engine, which drives a 26 kVA genset.  There don't seem to be any identifications on the castings but it has been suggested that it might be a Perkins.

Many thanks

Chris

Edited to add - It has a dry sump - the box with the gauge being the oil tank.

Edited February 6, 2023 by Batavia

[Tony Brooks]

For a moment I thought it might be a BMC 3.x, but the way the rocker cover is secured and the back of the front plate look wrong to me, so quite possibly a Perkins.

[john.k]

Perkins 4/236 .......but also on the same block/head 4/212,4/236,4/248.

[Batavia]

6 hours ago, john.k said:

Perkins 4/236 .......but also on the same block/head 4/212,4/236,4/248.

Thank you!  I also received the same answer from another person in Australia!

[billh]

Looks like a 'phone exchange standby generator to me. The various control boxes at the base are to do with automatic start up and shut down. If it's anything like the much bigger one we have (straight eight Dorman engine), that tank on the top is a lube oil supply , not a fuel tank and there is a float valve connected to the sump that lets oil in from the tank if the sump level drops. There may also be a mains immersion heater (about 300watt)  in the cooling circuit to keep the engine warmed for a quick start up. The square thing on the side of the engine is a solenoid stop valve connected to the fuel pump rack. The engine speed needs to be kept constant for all electrical loads to maintain the output at 50HZ.

[billh]

ETA: I don't think it's a dry sump system,  I think you will find there 's only one pipe from the oil tank and no scavenge pump in the sump, I could be wrong, I was once😀

[john.k]

Used to see some really nice Dorman gensets like that .....often with zero hours run...shame to scrap them............no one would touch Dormans ,because they always set the building on fire.

[Batavia]

7 hours ago, billh said:

Looks like a 'phone exchange standby generator to me. The various control boxes at the base are to do with automatic start up and shut down. If it's anything like the much bigger one we have (straight eight Dorman engine), that tank on the top is a lube oil supply , not a fuel tank and there is a float valve connected to the sump that lets oil in from the tank if the sump level drops. There may also be a mains immersion heater (about 300watt)  in the cooling circuit to keep the engine warmed for a quick start up. The square thing on the side of the engine is a solenoid stop valve connected to the fuel pump rack. The engine speed needs to be kept constant for all electrical loads to maintain the output at 50HZ.

Thank you for your very useful comments.

It has P.O. Brush Code labels on the alternator and exciter, so I had assumed that it was probably from an exchange.

If there is a mains immersion heater, it would explain the junction box labelled 240 Volts.

The solenoid stop is seized solid but apart from that, things are in reasonable condition and the exciter commutator shows very little sign of wear.

From the way it is plumbed in, I had guessed that the oil tank was part of a dry sump system but your suggestion of an automatic top-up arrangement makes more sense.

Unfortunately someone has cut off and thrown away the electrical control panel!

I will drag it out of the gloomy shed and start work on it.

The owner wants to install it for occasional use at an isolated farm, on the basis that people will be less likely to steal it than a more modern (and much lighter) genset, especially if we fix it down with rag bolts!

Chris

[billh]

2 hours ago, Batavia said:

Unfortunately someone has cut off and thrown away the electrical control panel!

 

Chris

There should be a  fancy automatic voltage regulator, I don't think its built  in the terminal box  on the generator is it? Ours has a rather  nice looking moving coil  regulator that looks like a giant Avometer without a scale in a seperate  glass fronted  steel case, beautifully made and replacement would be expensive. It might be possible to build a modern electronic  regulator at reasonable cost, though not something I would like to do!

[billh]

7 hours ago, john.k said:

Used to see some really nice Dorman gensets like that .....often with zero hours run...shame to scrap them............no one would touch Dormans ,because they always set the building on fire.

Funny you should say that!

This story  is from  about 40 years ago: at work we had a large computer installation , several  main  frame machines with a back up generator, Dorman 6QT, 360HP, for orderly shut down in the event of mains failure installed in the main building. So this guy is digging the pavement outside with a hand pick and hits the 3300v ring main, he's surprised by the bang  and the flying pick but uninjured. Power goes off, generator starts up......

The generator was supposed to be tested every month or so, but maintenance  had not done this,so there was a build up of lube oil on the exhaust manifold   , leaked from the tank above. As the gen warmed up the oil was burned off , didn't catch fire but loads of smoke, setting off  fire alarm and full building evacuation  of about 400 people. After a few minutes, power from the ring main was restored and the gen. shut down, evacuation reversed but the ring main dropped out again, generator starts up, repeat performance, smoke, evacuation etc. Complication added by the fire brigade turning up with 4 machines and escape ladder.

[Batavia]

44 minutes ago, billh said:

There should be a  fancy automatic voltage regulator, I don't think its built  in the terminal box  on the generator is it? Ours has a rather  nice looking moving coil  regulator that looks like a giant Avometer without a scale in a seperate  glass fronted  steel case, beautifully made and replacement would be expensive. It might be possible to build a modern electronic  regulator at reasonable cost, though not something I would like to do!

This is the inside of the box mounted on top of the alternator; all the exciter connections seem to come in here.

It looks like part (or all) of a voltage regulation system, especially if the toroidal thing is a saturable reactor.  At first glance, the finned item looks like a selenium rectifier, but it actually has stud diodes.

I am away from the genset for a few days but will do some serious investigation at the weekend.

thanks again for your help

Chris

[cuthound]

14 hours ago, billh said:

Looks like a 'phone exchange standby generator to me. The various control boxes at the base are to do with automatic start up and shut down. If it's anything like the much bigger one we have (straight eight Dorman engine), that tank on the top is a lube oil supply , not a fuel tank and there is a float valve connected to the sump that lets oil in from the tank if the sump level drops. There may also be a mains immersion heater (about 300watt)  in the cooling circuit to keep the engine warmed for a quick start up. The square thing on the side of the engine is a solenoid stop valve connected to the fuel pump rack. The engine speed needs to be kept constant for all electrical loads to maintain the output at 50HZ.

I agree.

 

As billh says he tank on the generator is the lube oil make up tank. A device known as a REN regulating valve maintained the sump at the full level.  Post Office and BT generators were specified to run for 5 days at full load without attention and to take 110% of rated load within 30 seconds of starting.

 

 

 

3 hours ago, billh said:

There should be a  fancy automatic voltage regulator, I don't think its built  in the terminal box  on the generator is it? Ours has a rather  nice looking moving coil  regulator that looks like a giant Avometer without a scale in a seperate  glass fronted  steel case, beautifully made and replacement would be expensive. It might be possible to build a modern electronic  regulator at reasonable cost, though not something I would like to do!

That sounds like a Brown Boveri regulator. Does it look something like this?

 

 

They were fitted to generating equipment from the 50's and early 60's, and are a bugger to set up.

Edited February 8, 2023 by cuthound
To add spaces between merged posts & clarification

[billh]

52 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

 

That sounds like a Brown Boveri regulator. Does it look something like this?

 

 

They were fitted to generating equipment from the 50's and early 60's, and are a bugger to set up.

That's the one "British Brown Boveri" Problems with the wire wound resistances disintegrating if left unused and damp. Still a fascinating mechanism.

I thought  you would know the PO specs for generators. I'm surprised it wasn't more than 5days unattended run time though.