Diesel prices

[scrumpylurcher]

3. She states that most red diesel is gas-oil to which a red dye has been added to help prevent illegal use.

 

. She also states that while she agrees most red diesel is not ULSD nor SFD, in some remote areas to overcome logistical problems, red diesel is just white diesel laced with the red dye. So she contends that not all red diesel is of inferior quality.

 

Those two answers seem to contradict each other (why am I surprised ) either most of it is gas oil or that in remote areas tends to be gas oil due to logistics.To end up paying a premium for an inferior product we might just as well have road fuel at the cheaper price, and save the environment as well. As usual the situation is bogging down due to lack of knowledge on the part of our so called masters. Either way it will cost us dearly.

 

 

 

Scrumpy Lurcher

[chris w]

3. She states that most red diesel is gas-oil to which a red dye has been added to help prevent illegal use.

 

. She also states that while she agrees most red diesel is not ULSD nor SFD, in some remote areas to overcome logistical problems, red diesel is just white diesel laced with the red dye. So she contends that not all red diesel is of inferior quality.

 

Those two answers seem to contradict each other (why am I surprised ) either most of it is gas oil or that in remote areas tends to be gas oil due to logistics.To end up paying a premium for an inferior product we might just as well have road fuel at the cheaper price, and save the environment as well. As usual the situation is bogging down due to lack of knowledge on the part of our so called masters. Either way it will cost us dearly.

Scrumpy Lurcher

 

 

White diesel is not gas-oil. So, in some remote areas, red diesel is white diesel NOT gas-oil

 

That wouldn't work as marinas will not sell white diesel because it will cost around £20K to convert their pumps and tanks to white diesel and they (and us) would have the added worry of security for a very-nickable product.

 

The surprise in the letter for me was that when the Government suggest their preferred option is to remove the rebate, I assumed that meant that red and white diesel would be the same price. I was incorrect and the ending of the rebate will make red diesel 7p per litre MORE expensive than white just in duty terms.

 

Chris

Edited December 13, 2007 by chris w

[Sir Nibble]

Every time I hear "sends the wrong signals" I get mad! If you want to send a signal, use semaphore, morse code, e-mail or telephone, NOT legislation!

[Guest]

We've been screwed over.

[Edders]

Am I missing something here then?

 

Why then can't red dyed road diesel be universally introduced?

 

Edders

[chris w]

Am I missing something here then?

 

Why then can't red dyed road diesel be universally introduced?

 

Edders

 

What would be the advantage of that?

 

Chris

[Ray]

Possibly slightly off topic, but does all this mean that railway locomotives will also have to pay the higher price. If not, why not (or is it just because they're a commercial undertaking)? If they are a commercial undertaking, how does that sit with all the preserved diesel locomotives that are privately owned?

 

If companies get a rebate, why not become a company and make the boat company property. Then you could travel about on some kind of transport research theme and claim you were on company business!

 

Is that too far fetched?

[Yoda]

Possibly slightly off topic, but does all this mean that railway locomotives will also have to pay the higher price. If not, why not (or is it just because they're a commercial undertaking)? If they are a commercial undertaking, how does that sit with all the preserved diesel locomotives that are privately owned?

 

If companies get a rebate, why not become a company and make the boat company property. Then you could travel about on some kind of transport research theme and claim you were on company business!

 

Is that too far fetched?

 

You have just uncovered a real minefield of legislation. It is possible to do this and there are several ways in which to to do it but long term, I think it is a very iffy way to go unless you have a good accountant.

[chris w]

I don't think that HMRC are that dumb. If they believe a scheme is set up solely to avoid tax, you'll have a fight on your hands. They often will take it to court in order to set the precedence. Then, if they lose, the law is changed to close the loophole.

 

Chris

[Yoda]

I don't think that HMRC are that dumb. If they believe a scheme is set up solely to avoid tax, you'll have a fight on your hands. They often will take it to court in order to set the precedence. Then, if they lose, the law is changed to close the loophole.

 

Chris

 

Yes your right and they certainly have done so in the past.

 

I'm thinking that it might be possible to have the boat registered and the business registered in another EU country or perhaps, better Switzerland. Alot of truck owners have registered there for tax reasons.

[Guest]

I don't think that HMRC are that dumb. If they believe a scheme is set up solely to avoid tax, you'll have a fight on your hands. They often will take it to court in order to set the precedence. Then, if they lose, the law is changed to close the loophole.

 

Chris

Yes, one would only get away with it in the short term.

[blackrose]

Because red diesel is 2000ppm of sulphur whereas white diesel is 50ppm.

 

Chris

 

So how can the Minister say that red's not always a lower grade fuel? She can't have it both ways?

 

Anyway, I'm still unclear. If it's going to be the same price (or higher) then why not just scrap red diesel and sell us white? Why keep red at all if it's envionmentally disadvantageous?

 

Edit: When I asked this question before someone said it was because they'd have to clean out all the supply tanks, but I can't see why - so it ends up looking a bit pink for a few years - so what? Even if for some reason all the tanks did have to be cleaned out - wouldn't it be worth it for a better quality fuel with a lower environmental impact? Why can't we think a bit more long-term in this country? I don't know if they have red diesel in Scandinavia for example, but I'm sure in our situation all their tanks would be cleaned out and white would be sold to everyone - road user & boater.

Edited December 13, 2007 by blackrose

[chris w]

I'm still unclear. So if it's going to be the same price (or higher) then why not just scrap red diesel and sell us white? Why keep red at all if it's envionmentally disadvantageous?

 

Edit: When I asked this question before someone said it was because they'd have to clean out all the supply tanks, but I can't see why - so it ends up looking a bit pink for a few years - so what?

 

Even if marinas were able to sell "pink" diesel (ie: they don't need to clean out their tanks at great expense) they would still have significant additional costs due to enhanced security. Two friends of mine, who own a marina on the southern GU, have told me they would stop selling diesel if there is any additional cost to them involved, because the margins don't justify the change based on the amount they sell in a year (and they are on a popular stretch). The cost of cleaning/changing tanks and pumps is estimated at around £20K so that route is definitely out.

 

Further, many of us may have responded to the consultation document unaware that the rebate on red was even higher than white.

 

Chris

Edited December 13, 2007 by chris w

[blackrose]

Even if marinas were able to sell "pink" diesel (ie: they don't need to clean out their tanks at great expense) they would still have significant additional costs due to enhanced security.

 

You mean to get it to the level of most garages? I see.

 

Sorry I edited my post as you were replying Chris. What about my first point?

 

Mike

Edited December 13, 2007 by blackrose

[Chris Pink]

You can run your boat on heating oil (kerosene) which is cheaper. The engine might not start on it but once warm will run OK.

 

Hi Yoda

 

How feasible is that for older engines?

Would the generally available diesel in the ol' days have been as high quality a product as white and red now?

Presumably in a lot of out of the way places in the world you would use what you can get as long as it's of minimum standard for your engine?

 

Chris

[chris w]

You mean to get it to the level of most garages? I see.

 

Sorry I edited my post as you were replying Chris. What about my first point?

 

Mike

 

She's saying that most red diesel is of lower quality. However, in some remote areas (due to "logistical problems") they apparently just dye white diesel red. Ergo, she can claim that not ALL red diesel is of lower qulaity and presumably, by inference, that the "lower product quality" bit of the EPD would not therefore apply.

 

To me, using that as a mechanism, is like a shop selling a product in the Outer Hebrides for a month at a seriously high price and then claiming that it is now at a bargain price in all its stores (and, to meet the law, was indeed on sale for 28 days at a higher price somewhere).

 

Chris

[Yoda]

Hi Yoda

 

How feasible is that for older engines?

Would the generally available diesel in the ol' days have been as high quality a product as white and red now?

Presumably in a lot of out of the way places in the world you would use what you can get as long as it's of minimum standard for your engine?

 

Chris

 

During the war, farm vehicles were run on kerosene as it was widely available. It had no other use apart from lamps until some silly buggar made a workable jet engine. Kerosene is a fraction of the distilate and diesel is a wider cut fraction. When any engine is hot enough it will run on kerosene. It might not produce full power but for normal running on most diesel engines, it will work OK.

 

I have to write that I am not recommending the use of a fuel that the engine manufactureers have not tested and approved.

[chris w]

I have to write that I am not recommending the use of a fuel that the engine manufactureers have not tested and approved.

 

.......................and, running on a fuel that avoids paying the duty (unless exempted), will be breaking the law.

 

Chris

[Yoda]

.......................and, running on a fuel that avoids paying the duty (unless exempted), will be breaking the law.

 

Chris

 

As long as it is not used on a road vehicle.

Edited December 13, 2007 by Yoda

[chris w]

As long as it is not used on a road vehicle.

 

Not after November 2008 was my point.

 

Chris

[Eastern]

Angela Eagles reply to Chris is just the same options that were in the consultation document that we all responded to before the end of October.

 

The important points as I see them are

1. Red diesel is just some other form of diesel that has been dyed red.

2. It is usually a form of diesel with a high sulphur content.

3. The high sulphur content is a requirement of (most?) marine diesel engines, and certainly vintage marine diesel engines.

4. Sulphur is deemed to be an environmentally damaging pollutant, so following the principle of the polluter pays, a higher duty is charged on high sulphur content diesel.

5. Most cars are designed to run on Ultra Low Sulphur Diesel (ULSD) and therefore the conclusion must be that filling station prices will be lower for diesel than those charged on the cut, due to the higher duty charged and a lack of competition. At current prices we could be paying, perhaps 125p/litre?

 

 

The IWA was pushing for a 25% rebate on the diesel as this was a proportion of fuel they estimated to be used on electrical generation and heating. 'Cause don't forget its only on propulsion that the full rate of duty is payable.

 

If I have twin fuel tanks fitted to my boat, one for propulsion and one for heating/electrical generation (from a seperate geny), then how does anyone know which tank is being filled? So how will anyone know if I have paid the duty or not on the fuel in each tank?

 

HMCR document suggested that the total duty payable on propulsion fuel was such a low amount in the general scheme of things that it was not worth spending a lot of money on enforcement. I leave you to draw your own conclusions.

[dor]

Never mind diesel - I've just found out that the current price for a 13Kg Calor Propane is £22! I think I will be swapping cylinders at P.E.T. rather than canal side in future.

[scrumpylurcher]

So assuming the tax is applied to red diesel there is nothing to stop us purchasing road fuel at the lower tax rate and using that, assuming we have a friendly farmer as a friend we can also fill cans with red diesel probably cheaper than we pay at the marina and it will be totally untraceable. not that I believe more of us rushing round tipping 5 gall cans of fuel into our boats is going to be a good environmental move. The use of low sulpher oils in new or old engines should not be a problem, the main concern is internal lubrication of the injection system and that could always be done with additives

[Yoda]

Sulpher in fuels is a real problem for engine produces. New types of car/van diesels run on low sulpher and would probably not like high sulpher fuels at all. Fuel pump lubricity is not deternined by sulpher.

[scrumpylurcher]

The major problem for manufacturers was lowering emmision levels with the level of sulpher that was present. Diesels will run on almost anything once they are started, the problems are much more to do with the way the different fuels burn and the effect that has on the engine ie oil contamination, filters blocking, carbon build up, smoky exhausts etc. I realise the sulpher is not a lubricant, my point was that unlike a petrol engine the diesel requires the fuel as a lubricant more so on the older engines but that we could compensate for that with additives