Help needed please with leak from generator

[commervan]

Hi we have a paguro 4000 generator in our narrowboat this is an Italian cocooned set which uses the one cylinder diesel engine i think its a ferrymann engine.

This has remote stop start etc and uses the same keel cooled tank as our vintage engine. and has a wet exhaust what ever that means.

The problem is it has a water leak which i cannot fine i have had the unit so far out (its very heavy) and replaced all water pipes i can see including water pump but still it leaks 

Its very hard to see once its in due to the coccoon case. but leaks around a mug full in 20mins use. into luckily a tray .

What i cannot work out this water/ Antifreze is cold after its leaked out after its been run, yet all the pipes are hot. The leak seems to be coming from the generator end and only leaks when the set is running with a slight leak when not.

Has anyone had any experience with these sets and had problems ,they where very expensive in there day and are still produced today but use a modern engine.

many thanks in advance.

Mike.

 

[David Mack]

12 minutes ago, commervan said:

uses the same keel cooled tank as our vintage engine. and has a wet exhaust what ever that means.

This doesn't sound right. If you have skin tank cooling you have a closed coolant circuit that just needs occasional topping up (same as in your car). But if you have a raw water or heat exchanger cooled engine you draw cooling water from the canal and after it has done its cooling the water is injected into the exhaust pipe. This cools the exhaust gases and reduces exhaust noise.

If you have a skin tank and a water injected exhaust I suspect the engine and generator cooling systems will be completely separate.

Edited November 19, 2021 by David Mack

[Bee]

When you say it uses a mug full in 20 mins does that mean a mug full in a puddle in the bottom of the boat or a mug full needed to top up a header tank? As David Mack says a dry exhaust is a different thing from a wet exhaust. If it is a water antifreeze mixture it is likely to be a closed circuit, sealed system but strange systems might well exist.

[Tony Brooks]

I am with David on this with the present info.

 

I would  guess it is heat exchanger cooled and the antifreeze is in the body of the heat exchanger plus the engine while canal water passes through tubes in the heat exchanger and out of the exhaust. That part of the system uses a (usually) brass pump and I would suspect that pump is leaking canal water while it is running, otherwise you would be topping up the engine cooling system frequently.

 

Dip the tip of your finger in the water under the engine and touch it on your tongue. If it is bitter sweet then it is from the engine so look under the ENGINE water pump to see if that pump is leaking. If it is old then look for metal disks  pushed into the engine block in case one has rusted through. This could also apply if the engine has canal water passing through it.

[commervan]

Hi David thanks for your reply.

The generator is cooled by the skin tank (keel cooled) as is the engine. every time gen set is used i have to top up the engine header tank because of the leak. Not sure about the exhaust sorry not a mechanic but there is a water hose which enters the manifold of the engine just before exhaust joins so i presume there must be some water around this area.

Mike.

[Tony Brooks]

Does water come out of the exhaust when the generator is running

[commervan]

Hi Tony no seems to be underneath cannot see where from . i have to mop out from the tray under the generator about a mug full then i have to top engine header up likewise.

[Tony Brooks]

Generators usually have their own small alternator to charge their start battery so the engine water pump will be behind one of the pulleys the drive belt runs over. usually the highest one more or less on the engine centre line. Look carefully behind and below the pulley for water/antifreeze/rust stains.

 

Otherwise it is likely to a question of torch and mirror to look for the drips while the engine is running.

 

Try cleaning and drying the drip tray and out some clean kitchen towel/newspaper in it to see where the drips land.

[Slim]

1 hour ago, commervan said:

Hi we have a paguro 4000 generator in our narrowboat this is an Italian cocooned set which uses the one cylinder diesel engine i think its a ferrymann engine.

This has remote stop start etc and uses the same keel cooled tank as our vintage engine. and has a wet exhaust what ever that means.

The problem is it has a water leak which i cannot fine i have had the unit so far out (its very heavy) and replaced all water pipes i can see including water pump but still it leaks 

Its very hard to see once its in due to the coccoon case. but leaks around a mug full in 20mins use. into luckily a tray .

What i cannot work out this water/ Antifreze is cold after its leaked out after its been run, yet all the pipes are hot. The leak seems to be coming from the generator end and only leaks when the set is running with a slight leak when not.

Has anyone had any experience with these sets and had problems ,they where very expensive in there day and are still produced today but use a modern engine.

many thanks in advance.

Mike.

 

I've got one (in fact it's my second). I'm not too clear on a couple of points. Where is the water collecting  for you to feel it's temperature ?  Have you had the unit out of the cocoon? Are you sure it's sharing.

 

Cancel the above as I just read the thread again especially your responses to Tony Brooks.

Are you aware that there are water pipes running to the oil cooler which is inset into the sump that can only be accessed by removing unit from cocoon.     

9 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Otherwise it is likely to a question of torch and mirror to look for the drips while the engine is running.

Tony, It's physically not possible to do so. I've tried.

[Slim]

Commervan, 

My generator is one of the last made with the Farymann engines and was new in 2017. With about 25 hours on the clock it developed an oil leak. I pulled it out of the cocoon and fortunately took a series of photos which I've just tracked down and will send them to you if you want. I would post them on the forum but all this uploading /downloading to the cloud is a tad beyond me. In the meanwhile if I can help in any way let me know. 

 

If anyone can explain how I get a series of photos into a post happy to try. Dell laptop running windows10 

Edited November 19, 2021 by Slim

[David Mack]

11 minutes ago, Slim said:

If anyone can explain how I get a series of photos into a post happy to try. Dell laptop running windows10 

In the reply window, just drag your photo files to the bottom area where it says. As I have done with this screenshot.

[springy]

Try running with the cap off - the system will not be pressurised - if the leak is reduced significantly then it indicates that the leak is occurring partly as a result of pressure in the cooling system. Try to borrow or hire a cooling system pressure testing kit - you can then pressurise the cooling system without the engine or generator running and possibly safely locate the leak using a mirror and torch or a usb endoscope to view locations you can not access when the generator is running. Raising the pressure slightly above normal may make the leak more obvious but don't overdo it.

 

springy

[Slim]

2 minutes ago, springy said:

Try running with the cap off - the system will not be pressurised - if the leak is reduced significantly then it indicates that the leak is occurring partly as a result of pressure in the cooling system. Try to borrow or hire a cooling system pressure testing kit - you can then pressurise the cooling system without the engine or generator running and possibly safely locate the leak using a mirror and torch or a usb endoscope to view locations you can not access when the generator is running. Raising the pressure slightly above normal may make the leak more obvious but don't overdo it.

 

springy

When I tried to use an endoscope to track my oil leak it was just impossible to do so. the tip kept catching in the cocoon sound insulation and got covered in oil. Also when you got the lens more or less in place it was impossible to point the tip upwards to see. I really did try. As I said elsewhere access to the sump while the engine is in the cocoon is impossile.

[Slim]

I think I've managed to upload one image showing the oil cooler and associated water pipes.  Thanks to David Mack

Edited November 19, 2021 by Slim

[commervan]

Thanks for all your comments i have previously had the gen out and as slim says its a pain to try and fine a leak.  Thanks slim looks like your picture highlights the oil cooler i was wondering what that was, its the only part i didn't remove on the water side (but did replace hose as in picture underneath).

So looks like i may have a leak in this area.

As springy suggested i had tried with cap off the header tank and yes it does reduce but does not stop .

Mike.

[Slim]

3 hours ago, commervan said:

Thanks for all your comments i have previously had the gen out and as slim says its a pain to try and fine a leak.  Thanks slim looks like your picture highlights the oil cooler i was wondering what that was, its the only part i didn't remove on the water side (but did replace hose as in picture underneath).

So looks like i may have a leak in this area.

As springy suggested i had tried with cap off the header tank and yes it does reduce but does not stop .

Mike.

When you say you replaced the hose did you replace both the hose from the pump to the oil cooler and the pipe from the cooler to the alternator? Did you check out the fitting into the alternator? As I recall it's simply a 90% plastic elbow. For the information of others the alternator itself is water cooled. Could it be a leak from within the alternator itself.? Were it to help I would be happy to have a phone conversation.  

[commervan]

Many thanks Slim . I only replaced the rubber pipes so yes looks like you are right it could be the plastic elbow or somewhere in the alternator itself. Looks like a strip down.  It could explain why when i turn the generator off the water/antifreeze in the tray under the generator  that's leaked out is cold as though its been cooled by the alternator itself.

This has really puzzled me as you would expect it to be warm if not hot when the rest of the system is. I have even felt the drips under the cocoon base these drips where cold and they had just left the generator.

Mike.

[Slim]

53 minutes ago, commervan said:

Many thanks Slim . I only replaced the rubber pipes so yes looks like you are right it could be the plastic elbow or somewhere in the alternator itself. Looks like a strip down.  It could explain why when i turn the generator off the water/antifreeze in the tray under the generator  that's leaked out is cold as though its been cooled by the alternator itself.

This has really puzzled me as you would expect it to be warm if not hot when the rest of the system is. I have even felt the drips under the cocoon base these drips where cold and they had just left the generator.

Mike.

If you follow the route the cold water takes it goes through the pump down to the oil cooler, into the alternator, out of the alternator, into the engine and so forth. You would expect the water you've found to be cold. The oil cooler is very basic so I can't imagine it extracts much heat from the oil. 

The design of the ATE alternator changed at some time and seemingly most parts are not interchangeable. My experience of the alternator was on my original, older, Paguro 4000. On that the water jacket was pressed or shrunk onto the alternator body. My issues were windings related not cooling. 

[commervan]

Thanks slim for all your advice, ours is an older 4000 so properly will have this jacket you mentioned. So i will investigate this first.

Many thank