Torsion bar

[Scooter36]

Hello, does anyone know where I can get a torsion bar for a 1.8 bmc injection pump?

Can find one any where, engine wont start without it.

Cheers

[Tony Brooks]

3 minutes ago, Scooter36 said:

Hello, does anyone know where I can get a torsion bar for a 1.8 bmc injection pump?

Can find one any where, engine wont start without it.

Cheers

 

Would you mean the drive shaft? No torsion bar in a DPA pump or its drive. If it did have one it would mess up the pump timing as it wound itself up and unwound itself. Photo?

 

Your best bet would be Calcutt Boats.

[Scooter36]

Number 89 on drawing

[Scooter36]

I have tried Culcutter boat, they don't have one, they told me it is not needed, but my mechanic said it does, they must be still being made

 

[Tracy D'arth]

2 minutes ago, Scooter36 said:

I have tried Culcutter boat, they don't have one, they told me it is not needed, but my mechanic said it does, they must be still being made

 

CAV would have not made it so if it was not needed. It takes the backlash out of the pump drive so it is possible that it could run without but its not correct. Have you tried a Lucas CAV agent?

If you want the best advice try asking R Wilkinson Diesel Service Ltd  They are in Stockport, a long way from you but I have always found them to be reliable and helpful.   0161 476 4645

[Scooter36]

Thanks will try them now

Alex

[Tony Brooks]

22 minutes ago, Scooter36 said:

I have tried Culcutter boat, they don't have one, they told me it is not needed, but my mechanic said it does, they must be still being made

 

 

I think something is coming back to me, and I think I agree with Calcutt.

 

I seem to remember that some DPA drive splines look as if they have a thin section on the end that has been almost cut through, but the splines on it were slightly out of line with the main drive splines. When inserted into the female drive splines on the thin section was forced to turn a fraction and thereby loaded the torsion bar. This was an anti-drive chatter measure and nothing really to do with driving or timing the pump.

 

I think you have another problem that your engineer has not  considered/identified.

 

Bet 1: lack of adequate bleeding.

Bet 2: Lift pump fault (diaphragm or cap seal).

Bet 3: seals in fuel filter incorrectly fitted.

 

The rarer thing like fuel pick up pipe split or blocked etc.

 

 

Edited July 5, 2021 by Tony Brooks

[Scooter36]

I will investigate 

 

Thanks

[Scooter36]

13 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

CAV would have not made it so if it was not needed. It takes the backlash out of the pump drive so it is possible that it could run without but its not correct. Have you tried a Lucas CAV agent?

If you want the best advice try asking R Wilkinson Diesel Service Ltd  They are in Stockport, a long way from you but I have always found them to be reliable and helpful.   0161 476 4645

Just rung them, bloke didn't have a clue what I was talking about, lol

[Tony Brooks]

Is your mechanic  really familiar with the BMC 1.5/1.8 engines? They are simple enough, but those more familiar with automotive/Japanese engines may not know the wrinkles.

 

We might be able to give more help  we knew what has been done to it and how the bleeding was carried out.

[Tracy D'arth]

What happened to the original one?

 

4 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Is your mechanic  really familiar with the BMC 1.5/1.8 engines? They are simple enough, but those more familiar with automotive/Japanese engines may not know the wrinkles.

 

We might be able to give more help  we knew what has been done to it and how the bleeding was carried out.

1.8 D was an automotive engine, Leyland  LDV Sherpa van. They have this torsion bar in the end of the master splined drive for the injection pump. It loads the spline to avoid any backlash which would alter the injection timing point.

[Tony Brooks]

31 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

What happened to the original one?

 

1.8 D was an automotive engine, Leyland  LDV Sherpa van. They have this torsion bar in the end of the master splined drive for the injection pump. It loads the spline to avoid any backlash which would alter the injection timing point.

 

Agreed, but not to such an extent that the engine would not start or run. In any case, no more than the backlash in the timing chain and skew gears on a 1.5.  How long ago was the Sherpa a common vehicle that the majority of mechanics were familiar with?

 

I agree that in an ideal world the torsion bar should be used but if they are unobtainable then It's either scrap the pump/engine or run without it.

[Slim]

Can't comment for whether it's needed or not but my manual shows one (item 89 as quoted earlier). I distinctly remember lining it up when re-installing the pump, a job I've done several times. There's a definite knack to it. 

[Scooter36]

My first mechanic took it away, never to be seen again, new one is boat mechanic 

[Tracy D'arth]

6 minutes ago, Scooter36 said:

My first mechanic took it away, never to be seen again, new one is boat mechanic 

I would try to find him, it will be easier than trying to buy a new one.

Your best hope will be a secondhand one from a scrap pump/engine. Problem is it falls out when the pump is removed so easily gets lost.  I am shocked that Wilkinsons could not help you, I'll remonstrate with him next time I see him.

[Scooter36]

I am asking around, will fiddle around with engine at the weekend 

 

Thanks

[pete.i]

It would be better if you could give a blow by blow account of what you have done as Tony Brooks has suggested.

 

Bet 1: lack of adequate bleeding.

Bet 2: Lift pump fault (diaphragm or cap seal).

Bet 3: seals in fuel filter incorrectly fitted.

 

The rarer thing like fuel pick up pipe split or blocked etc.

 

There is a knack to bleeding the 1.5 and the 1.8 BMC engines especially when you get to the high pressure pump. There was a manual online, which has been reproduced on here lots of times if you search and there was a Wilton Marina You Tube video of how to bleed the BMC engines which has also been reproduced on here. Any air leaks anywhere in the fuel delivery system will prevent the engine from starting. After you have successfully bled the engine you shouls get a good dribble of fuel from the delivefry pipes at the injectors if you loosen one. Do not undo it fully the diesel jet is quite powerful. Just crack the nut and a goodly amount of fuel should come out. Once you have a good dribble at the first injector the should start although it will be very lumpy and horrible sounding. Once it fires then loosen each injector nut a tad to release any air and allow fuel to reach the injectors. As long as all the delivery pipes are tight and the high pressure pump is good then everything should fire up and it should be good to go.........................At least that is what I used to do when I had a BMC 1.5 and it seemed to work for me.  

 

These videos might be useful.

 

 

 

 

 

[Scooter36]

Thanks, will try, 

Cheers

[Tony Brooks]

My advice would be for a non-mechanic (one without "feel" for what is going on with nuts and bolts) would be to avoid the bleed screw shown on the first image unless you are forced to use it. It's all too easy to snap the bleed screw off, upset the idle damper setting or rip the whole damper adjustment out of the top of the pump.

 

In all cases keep bleeding for at least 30 seconds after you think all the air is out of that bleed point. Use the lever on the lift pump. If the lever has more slack that "pump" turn the engine over a full turn (the pump lever is on the back of the eccentric, turning the engine moves the eccentric half a rotation).

 

1. Bleed the top of the fuel filter. Use the banjo bolt the leak of pipe uses.

2. Bleed from the screw on the side of the cylindrical body - NOTE some, if not all 1.8 injection pumps have another bleed screw in one of the injector pipe banjos. You don't touch this.

3. Loosen all fur injector pipe unions at the injectors about a turn or so. Spin on the starter until fuel spits from each union. Tighten up and it should start.

 

If it fails to start but produces clouds of white smoke the bleeding is fine, something else is wrong (compression/timing). If it's a few wisps of smoke    bleed again.

 

If all else fails follow the fuel return pipe from the mounting end of the pump up to the filter where it should be fitted to a port with an inward facing arrow plus a hexagon valve. Undo the pipe from the filter and direct into a can. Spin the engine on full throttle and with a bit of luck it will bleed itself but spit out loads of fuel.

 

[Scooter36]

I will try that, hopefully will do the trick.

When I first got the boat, last September, last owner said it was lumpy,  so brought new pump.

Then would not start at all, her mechanic disappearing with torsion bar not helping. 

Thanks for advice. 

 

[Tony Brooks]

5 minutes ago, Scooter36 said:

I will try that, hopefully will do the trick.

When I first got the boat, last September, last owner said it was lumpy,  so brought new pump.

Then would not start at all, her mechanic disappearing with torsion bar not helping. 

Thanks for advice. 

 

 

Have you changed the filter and water element trap if you have one? If so did you drain them and inspect to see what they had caught? "Lumpy" could indicate many faults, but I would be wanting to ensure there was no diesel bug sloshing about.

 

Have the valve clearances been checked re the lumpiness?

[Tony Brooks]

I have been looking at Google part lists and it seems some DPA pump drives do/did not use the torsion bar so that sort of confirms it should run without one.

[Scooter36]

44 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Have you changed the filter and water element trap if you have one? If so did you drain them and inspect to see what they had caught? "Lumpy" could indicate many faults, but I would be wanting to ensure there was no diesel bug sloshing about.

 

Have the valve clearances been checked re the lumpiness?

Engine was fully serviced, by last owner, just before I got it, so I would hope, everything was checked then.

Cheers

[Tony Brooks]

8 minutes ago, Scooter36 said:

Engine was fully serviced, by last owner, just before I got it, so I would hope, everything was checked then.

Cheers

 

I am sorry, but you don't seem to grasp the principles of fault-finding. You can hope everything is OK for as long as you like, but the engine is not starting and neither will it until you find out why.

 

An engine that was "lumpy" now won't start, so the two things may be related. I hope it is just bleeding, but if the water trap (if you have one) or the filters are full of bug it will be difficult to bleed so that needs to be ruled out. You can get an idea by seeing the volume of fuel flowing from the bleed screw, but it's not definitive.

 

I think there is much we are not being told.

 

Why would an injection pump be removed from the engine if the engine has just been serviced? There is no other way for that part to be removed or fall out. It is strange no other steps to rule out other causes of the "lumpiness" seem to have been taken before the pump was removed.

 

[Scooter36]

The mechanic thought lumpyness, was a faulty pump, so got a new one. So can't be that. There was plenty of fuel coming out of pipes, when my mechanic turned over engine, so, maybe glow plugs?