Sailaway or Self fitted Sailaway

[John Orentas]

So what thickness should the floor beams be? 2 b 2?

 

 

People would normally bolt 3" x 2" timbers on to the steel beams (or knees) this will give you about 5" height for the ballast.

[blackrose]

is that the real liverpool boats?

 

Did you suspect an imposter?

[Gary Peacock]

is that the real liverpool boats?

if so i would like to know if they do marine mortgages or loans for sailaways if not why?

or a discount for canal world forum members

 

 

On a more serious note from a conversation I had with a certain marine mortgage company it seems they are getting fed up of financing DIY projects because of the number of defaulters they are suffering I don't think I was getting the full story but the line was that often the repossesed boats turned out be insufficient security on the loan and it often cost the lender money.

 

The bottom line was they were looking at not only the customer proving they had sufficient income to make the repayments but also the funds to complete the project.

[John Orentas]

I am always a little surprised that marine mortgages are apparently so easily available, 25 years ago though theoretically possible, in practise it was never an option, I remember trying that route.. A three million pound gin palace moored permanently in Monte Carlo and under-written by a couple of banks yes, but rarely narrowboats.

 

Not surprising really, if you wanted to buy a house how would you go on getting a loan against a heap of bricks and timber and if there wasn't even a permanent site for it, you wouldn't see that smart chap with the clipboard for dust.

[Serendipity]

I am always a little surprised that marine mortgages are apparently so easily available, 25 years ago though theoretically possible, in practise it was never an option, I remember trying that route.. A three million pound gin palace moored permanently in Monte Carlo and under-written by a couple of banks yes, but rarely narrowboats.

 

Not surprising really, if you wanted to buy a house how would you go on getting a loan against a heap of bricks and timber and if there wasn't even a permanent site for it, you wouldn't see that smart chap with the clipboard for dust.

 

Self build mortages have been around for a while now, to buy the plot and and a pile of bricks and timber, and then another tranche of loan in stages to buy some more each time you get to first floor level, second floor, roof etc.

 

Having worked in finance I can tell you that in the last ten years the finance houses have looked at ever more exotic ways of getting the loans out, with little regard to their underlying security. That's all about to change though. Not a lot of people realise that most second tier lenders have to borrow heavily themselves (aka Northern Rock) and they do this by 'blocking' their loan book to their lender/s. They are finding it much tougher to get these credit lines now (especially if their lending is of the exotic or sub-prime range), and squeezing them on the other side, customer defaults are on the up.

[blackrose]

Self build mortages have been around for a while now, to buy the plot and and a pile of bricks and timber, and then another tranche of loan in stages to buy some more each time you get to first floor level, second floor, roof etc.

 

Having worked in finance I can tell you that in the last ten years the finance houses have looked at ever more exotic ways of getting the loans out, with little regard to their underlying security. That's all about to change though. Not a lot of people realise that most second tier lenders have to borrow heavily themselves (aka Northern Rock) and they do this by 'blocking' their loan book to their lender/s. They are finding it much tougher to get these credit lines now (especially if their lending is of the exotic or sub-prime range), and squeezing them on the other side, customer defaults are on the up.

 

Yes, the recent comparative ease of availability of marine mortgages seems to be part of the wider credit picture which is now beginning to contract.

[bottle]

We are wandering but Radio Four today Money box was discussing the housing market and the subject of mortgages arose, it was stated that until recently there were approximately 15,000 different mortgages available that has now been reduced to approximately 6,000.

 

The report on house prices actually said there would be a slow down in the rate that house prices rise and there is not going to be a slump, the slump was just paper talk.

[Tony Brooks]

People say buying a sailaway is a false economy so I want to narrow this down into pounds and hours to see how much

money is actually saved by doing it yourself.

I will have 4 months to do this pretty much full time.

 

Going off the price for a 55 foot liverpool shell which is advertised at 13K without windows and front and back doors, side doors hatch and engine. Im trying to calculate the saving between buying a £22000. Liverpol sailaway with all the above included ready to go.

I mean how much will ballast actually cost and the materials it sits on for example. Surely the overall saving isnt going to be that substantial?

 

Then there is the engine and gearbox.

Do we buy the 5k Vetus that seems popular or do we buy a remanufactured BMC with gearbox for 3k.

Im told the BMC will be happier with up to 30% cooking oil mixed in with the red diesel is this true.

 

Its going to be difficult but its going to be fun so long as its not expensive fun.

 

Thanks.

 

 

I can not quantify anything, but when I was at the hire-fleet we used to fit out at least one or two bare hulls a year (I was in charge of all the mechanical, electrical and domestic systems bits).

 

When we were looking at boats a sailaway looked very attractive costwise until I started to estimate how long, how much, and what it would fetch when sold.

 

I very quickly gave up the idea and bought a 10 year old ex hire-boat that I have since modified to suit us during the winter weekends and had good boa-tying during the summer.

 

Take care! I broadly know what I am doing with fit outs yet it scared me.

 

Tony Brooks

[Gary Peacock]

Tony is right here selling a full fit is hard you are selling the product, if it's not good you struggle but selling a DIY project you are selling the dream and it is not in you're business interests to be to honest with what is involved!

 

Probably that's why I never sold many DIY boats!

[KenK]

Just looking through the latest WW there is an unfinished project advertised for £29,000, Josher shell, beta 43 plus bits must be a better bet than a sailaway. In addition there is a 58 ft semi-trad with lots done for £35,750.

 

I suspect the people who purchased these thought building a boat was easy. I suspect the problem for most people is trying to juggle work etc with building a boat and for many the boat loses out.

 

It comes down to do you want to build a boat or cruise a boat.

 

Ken

[Guest]

I agree that fitting out a boat is very time consuming. However I disagree that it is diificult to achieve. I remember a time as a youth, when most people on our canal fitted out their own boats, only the rich bought them fully fitted. I know many people who have fitted their own boats out to a high standard, often better quality than the experts. If I can do it to a reasonable standard, then anybody can. Some professionally fitted boats look lovely, but underneath the fancy trim lurk some time-bombs.

[blackrose]

The report on house prices actually said there would be a slow down in the rate that house prices rise and there is not going to be a slump, the slump was just paper talk.

 

And talk from the International Monetary Fund of course, as reported recently in the news media.

 

http://news.independent.co.uk/business/new...icle1578746.ece

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uklatest/story/0,,-7004018,00.html

 

http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/busi...0warning/932447

 

Amongst economists there are differences of opinion on how severe any correction will be in the UK, but I don't think the papers are making this stuff up!

Edited October 20, 2007 by blackrose

[onthecut]

Hi all.

 

I think KenK has a perfectly valid point in the issue of whether the issue is to build or cruise a boat. I think the classic advice is that if you are fitting a boat out, the last thing to fit is the engine, since then you can go places ! I must say though I've quite happily fallen into this situation -- boat about 50% finished --- can wash, cook, sleep, sit, something that sounds like sit but with an extra letter in, etc. etc. In the space of the three years it's been in hand, have cruised from the K and A to Leeds and many in between. I don't think there is a definitive right and wrong in this -- it really is whatever suits the individual best. I knew before I started that the lure of the cut would be much stronger than the lure of six months solid DIY and I'm quite happy with that. Based on the experience of the previous boat, we thought we knew exactly how we wanted this one, but actual use is leading to all sorts of little tweaks that would be much harder had we ploughed ahead straight to a finished fit. Were I honest, it may well never be 'finished', but it won't sit still for long either -- and to me, that's what the canal is all about -- the people, the next bend, the next lock and so on. Finally, although obviously money and time are significant issues, there is that difference in knowing exactly who and when fitted each little part of the boat; a personalising process that no completed craft bought ready to go can ever offer, no matter what the price.

 

Mike.

[blackrose]

a personalising process that no completed craft bought ready to go can ever offer, no matter what the price.

 

That's very true, a boat that's been well fitted by the owner is likely to be much more individual than any off the shelf fully fitted boat (providing the owner has some sense of the aesthetic). I've never seen another boat with an interior like mine.

Edited October 21, 2007 by blackrose

[HYBRID]

I popped down to the New Boat Company open weekend to have a look at the Liverpool hulls, a sailaway and as Gary puts it a “budget boat” with a price tag of just under £60000

I looked at two options in the flesh to see if I could see where the best point of entry into ownership existed and I have to say.

The finished boat was a little too much like a swift caravan for me and although very modern, light and airy I would have been disappointed with what I got for my money.

A sailaway plus (or whatever its called) wasn’t available but the jump in price from a sailaway obviously included some profit for the builder.

The lined boat with 3 bulkheads fitted was a big project, I wasn’t happy with all the aspects of the work already done and would have been removing some of the lining and flooring. I would possibly look into the main bildge and add my own rust preventative measures to the hull and then possibly re ballast the boat using engineering bricks. So why pay for it in the first place?

I would conclude if you are the type of person to have the knowledge and skills to contemplate fitting out a boat, your reasons for doing it are financial, and you have the time to see it through, I would start with a hull in its most basic state as you will not be happy with someone else’s work at the end of the market I looked at.

Never having seen one of Gar’s hulls I would be interested in the differences that are noticeable in the painted unfitted hull that set him aside from production line builders, is it purely neatness and attention to detail for the perfectionists? Or is it design and handling you pay for?

[anthony]

We went for a marine mortgage on a part fitted boat a few years ago it wasnt worth it.

It was £600 a month on a £30000 boat. Obviously due to the high risk.

We have found buying a house and then getting the money out of that a better option.

[anthony]

Hybrid one thing you need to remember about the New Boat co is they buy there shells from Liverpool

and probably fitted ballast their way ect.

Companies like the new boat co spec build designs for customers that are daft in terms of function even

with things like position of windows for example. In my mind the reason for this is they dont build shells

and dont understand what they are doing to an extent.

 

We went to Liverpool Boats on saturday.

I think the days of a Liverpool shell looking like a budget shell as people so often say are long gone.

After adding options like a flared bow and having the traditional bow design on the cruiser which is

the stern we are going for the boat actually looks nice.

Then there are the little things like recessed fender eyes bow lockers,gas lockers at the same price

as any other builder if not cheaper.

We were given the prices for the bare shell and for the sailaway.

LB put down felt then broken slabs for ballast. Im not sure how good this method is and wonder if placing

something under the slabs would improve things. If so then even doing this yourself isn't really going to add to

the cost.

I must say in short you seem to get a lot of boat for your money when buying the sailaway even with

the extras on the hull. Unless I can get certain materials for a lot cheaper we would be fools not to buy

the sailaway talking purely from a financial viewpoint.

In fact they were keen for us to buy the sailaway offering otherwise additional extras in with the price.

Im assuming they must make money on a sailaway more so than a shell as they get the materials cheaper as they

buy so much in bulk including the engines.

The one thing that became obvious from talking to LB was these people know how to build boats. Lets face

it they build so many they certainly get enough practice.

When I asked how do they test their welds for leaks the answer was a confident ''we dont''

They used to use the dye process but becasue it all takes so long and slows the production down they

stopped doing it.

I took it from this that they know what there doing as they do it so much more than other builders that they

actually dont need to check as they get it right. There were certainly no angry wet customers banging the door down.

However if a problem was to spring they would sort it.

Having said that if another company selling a Lb sailaway (as so many do) offered the same specs with the boat

on the water that would certainly swing the buying decision in their favour.

Its actually a shame that Liverpool boats are not right next to the water.

 

We also got to look in a near finished boat with the reverse layout which is the layout we are going for.

This has the kitchen at the back then the lounge then bathroom then bedroom (excuse my non boaty descriptions)

Again it was obvious they know what they are doing due to experience. The quality was good and anyone buying a full

fit from Liverpool would be happy.Having said that I would'nt buy one fully fitted.I would'nt use mdf faced wood for kitchen

units for example but it looked good.

Gosh all this sounds like a sales pitch but bottom line is money talks the rest walks and LB don't try to hide that fact.

We will start costing up certain materials and similar specs from other companies and if we get a better deal we will

go back to Liverpool to see what they can do for us.

Yeah we could buy a Mike Christian shell or some bespoke builders shell with fake rivets and a nice bow design but in my mind the steel specs are the same the same stuff used on the welds is too. At the end of the day pretentiousness is not equal to function as far as we are consearned. The canals were about the working class not the snobs.

 

So far so good.

Edited October 22, 2007 by anthony

[HYBRID]

From what I observed I wouldn’t be put off a Liverpool shell, the one I looked at was painted and although not perfect it was pleasing enough to the eye and good enough for me to scrape down the pilings and lock entrances. I was a little surprised at the rust I found when I looked in places you don’t normally see, but if you make yourself aware and build in some prevention then you have a head start. I imagined (as I did not see the main bilge area) that with time away from production schedules a diy’er could make a better job of corrosion prevention and ballasting than the factory.

I will follow your post’s with great interest as you appear to be nearer purchasing a boat than myself.

[blackrose]

Hybrid one thing you need to remember about the New Boat co is they buy there shells from Liverpool

and probably fitted ballast their way ect.

Companies like the new boat co spec build designs for customers that are daft in terms of function even

with things like position of windows for example. In my mind the reason for this is they dont build shells

and dont understand what they are doing to an extent.

NBC don't fit ballast or "spec build designs" (whatever that means), they simply have priority contracts and act as an agent for boat builders including LB.

 

Having said that if another company selling a Lb sailaway (as so many do) offered the same specs with the boat

on the water that would certainly swing the buying decision in their favour.

NBC offer sailaways & fully fitted boats with exactly the same spec for around the same price as LB.

 

Its actually a shame that Liverpool boats are not right next to the water.

When I visited in 2005 they were just across the road from the Mersey, but they'll deliver to most places. Delivery of my 57" x 12" widebeam from Liverpool to Reading cost £200 including crainage into the water.

[anthony]

Out of interest Hybrid where did you notice the rust?

We feel we are near purchasing our boat but we will still hold back longer to mill over things as we have made that mistake in the past. You always seem to miss something.

[blackrose]

I popped down to the New Boat Company open weekend to have a look at the Liverpool hulls, a sailaway and as Gary puts it a “budget boat” with a price tag of just under £60000

 

That seems a bit steep! What was included?

Edited October 22, 2007 by blackrose

[anthony]

BlackRose have to split hairs with you mate NBC sales agents do help customers spec there boats build design.

Thats whatever that means.

When you say around the same price what margin are you giving here?

£500?

Delivery and crane for £200 someone must of liked you thats cheap!

Was the crane separate from the delivery truck?

[HYBRID]

Price of just under £60000 was around 57 feet (ish) fully fitted can’t remember exactly but have the sales info at home.

The rust was present in a few corners and most noticeable behind the cabin sides around the side hatch recess open the hatch and look around the edges of the hole.

The hinges for the side doors had started rusting due to the paint being scraped off. I didn’t notice if any grease nipples were fitted to the hinges, but we hired a newish boat this year with the same hinge problem, they snapped off when I opened the hatch; I nearly lost the door in the shroppie.

I would go and find a 3 year Liverpool boat to look at; it might show up a few areas to improve should you buy a sailaway.

[ChrisPy]

delivery of my 57ft widebeam in 2005 was £700 from Liverpool to Bristol, and the marina crane cost about £250.

[blackrose]

BlackRose have to split hairs with you mate NBC sales agents do help customers spec there boats build design.Thats whatever that means.

Sorry I still don't understand. I don't think NBC offers anything on a LB boat that LB don't offer themselves?

When you say around the same price what margin are you giving here?£500?

Yes. When I priced up my boat from NBC & LB there was about £300 in it (NBC was slightly more expensive but since they said they could guarantee my build slot I thought it was worth it.)

Delivery and crane for £200 someone must of liked you thats cheap!Was the crane separate from the delivery truck?

Originally delivery & crainage was supposed to be included in the price of the sailaway so they wern't going to charge me at all, but I kept messing them about because I couldn't make up my mind whether I wanted 11' or 12' beam, and when I finally decided on 12' they said they needed an extra man in the lorry because the regulations had changed so it was an extra £200 - it was all bollocks but I wasn't really in a position to haggle anymore so I agreed.

Edited to say: Of course NBC builds this "free" delivery & crainage into it's costs - you don't get something for nothing, but it's got to be cheaper than organising it yourself.

 

Yes, the LB truck drives into the marina and the crane takes the boat off and lowers it into the water.

 

Price of just under £60000 was around 57 feet (ish) fully fitted can’t remember exactly but have the sales info at home.

Ahh, fully fitted, I see. It looked like you said £60K was for a sailaway earlier. Edited October 22, 2007 by blackrose