sailaway Hard Standing for self fit out

[NeilT]

Hi everyone,

 

I'm brand new to this forum and hoping for some advice.  We are going to be buying a 70' x 12' Wide Beam next year to fit out ourselves, and ideally would like to find a marina in the Midlands with hardstanding that could accomodate us.  Any suggestions and information will be greatly appreciated.

 

Thanks

 

Neil

[Alan de Enfield]

Much of the 'Midlands' is narrow canals and you will not 'fit' with a boat that size.

 

Where do you have in mind as the Midlands is quite a large area, going from Lincoln across to Shrewsbury and Peterborough, to Northampton, Birminham to ???? ?

 

It is usually advised that you should not worry about getting it done in a marina, it is much more important to get it done as close to 'home' as possble - nothing worse that travelling 2 hours to get to the boat to find that you have forgotten "that part" which you needed.

It is not uncommon to have shells lifted into your garden (even over the roof) so you can work evenings, the odd spare hour etc.

Can you find an empty unit on a local industrial estate ?

 

Now the important questions :

 

Are you aware of the requirements to build to the RCD and the implications if you dont ?

 

Do you know what the RCD is ?

 

Will you have surveyor sign off at each stage of build or self-certify ?

 

Are you aware that the law changed in 2017 and now even 'sailaway' boats are required to fully comply and the Annexe III(a) is not longer allowed.

 

 

 

The new Directive has effectively put an end to Sailaway boats (completed to all variety of levels) being supplied with an Annex lll(a) Declaration as was previously possible under Directive 94/25/EU. Under the new Directive (2013/53/EU) Sailaways (including hull only) would need to be supplied as completed craft.

Therefore for anyone purchasing a narrow boat sailaway from 18th January 2017 must ensure you have the necessary paperwork from your boat builder that is required of a ‘completed’ craft up to the current point of completion, this includes:

• A builders plate – makers details and technical information
• A CE mark
• A Craft or Hull Identification Number (CIN or HIN) – it is carried in two places on the boat; one should be hidden for security.
• An owners manual with information needed to use and maintain the boat safety
• A declaration of conformity (DoC)

A CE marked craft shows the craft is compliant when it was placed on the market for the first time. It remains valid unless a major alteration to the craft takes place which would require a re-assessment of the craft.

‘Major Craft Conversion’ would be applicable to the fit out of the majority of sailaway boats, and needs to be factored in when planning your fit out. Once you have completed the fit out of your sailway boat, the boat would require a Post Construction Assessment and the documentation, builders plate and CE markings all need to be updated. Although a self assessment is possible, it is not recommended as the fitter would resume all responsibility as the manufacturer and it is also a lengthy and involved process. In the worse case scenario, it could mean you are held criminally responsible if the boat sank and there was loss of life. It is recommended that you appoint a professional to complete the post construction assessment, this would be at of cost of around £2000.

Edited December 6, 2020 by Alan de Enfield

[NeilT]

Hi Alan, and thanks for the reply.

 

Having been born, and lived in the Midlands all of my life, I am aware that most of the canal network in and around the Midlands is suited only to narrowboats, so we are probably going to be looking at the Severn or Avon, or canal further south.

 

With regard to being near home, we will be selling our house , which is far too big for us now, and renting a property near wherever we fit out the boat, as we intend to live aboard the boat, hence the size.  We have thought about potentially renting either open land or a unit on an industrial estate, but a marina would be preferable as there will most likely be a chandlery, and knowledgeable people on hand, should I need to ask for advice.

 

I am fully aware of the Recreational Craft Directive, and the BSS having spent the better part of a year researching the task of fitting out a wide beam sailaway, and will in all likeliehood use a qualified surveyor at the appropriate times.   

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, NeilT said:

We have thought about potentially renting either open land or a unit on an industrial estate, but a marina would be preferable as there will most likely be a chandlery, and knowledgeable people on hand, should I need to ask for advice.

 There are an ever decreasing number of marinas that have a chandlery, the cost of holding stock and the inability to compete with online means they cannot afford to stay in business.

 

Good luck with your project.

[Ally]

Redhill marina has a fit out area. Where the Trent and Soar meet. Not the most salubrious place but they could likely accommodate you, and take a crane. Not too far to mercia for midland chandlers.

Edited December 6, 2020 by Ally

[Richard T]

5 hours ago, Ally said:

 Not too far to mercia for midland chandlers.

Or Sileby Mill which also has a good chandlery.

[blackrose]

6 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Are you aware that the law changed in 2017 and now even 'sailaway' boats are required to fully comply and the Annexe III(a) is not longer allowed.

 

 

I didn't know that. I've been out of touch with those issues for a good few years.

 

So no excemptions for self fit-outs any more? Presumably a fair proportion of people completing self fit-outs and also those buying fully completed new craft let the RCD lapse after a while and revert to the BSS? Or once the boat has RCD certification is it fairly straightforward to maintain?

[Alan de Enfield]

28 minutes ago, blackrose said:

 

I didn't know that. I've been out of touch with those issues for a good few years.

 

So no excemptions for self fit-outs any more? Presumably a fair proportion of people completing self fit-outs and also those buying fully completed new craft let the RCD lapse after a while and revert to the BSS? Or once the boat has RCD certification is it fairly straightforward to maintain?

I don't think that the RCD 'lapses' as such, it remains an RCD compliant boat until you do a 'major conversion' (new engine, gas system, etc or anything that will affect safety or the stability) At that point it requires a Post Construction Assessment to 'requalify' for RCD compliance.

 

Whilst the UK seems pretty lassez faire about the whole thing, the EU countries take it much more seriously and a non-complaint boat cannot (should not) be sold.

As I have mentioned a few times, when we bought the Cat in Croatia there was a distinct lack of 'ships papers' and I offered £80,000 below the asking price and it was accepted.

I then had to get the paperwork sorted out and get it de-registered by the "Minister for Maritime Affairs" and removed from the Governments registration list of boats.

 

We do not realise how lucky we are in the UK.

Boat ownership (and responsibilities) in the EU is a very serious matter and there is a lot of legislation about who can skipper a boat, where they can skipper it and what qualifications are needed.

 

Signed and sealed, and, witnessed by a Solicitor.

De-registration all tied up with a ribbon and a seal placed over the 'knot'.

 

 

Edited December 6, 2020 by Alan de Enfield

[Ally]

31 minutes ago, blackrose said:

 

I didn't know that. I've been out of touch with those issues for a good few years.

 

So no excemptions for self fit-outs any more? Presumably a fair proportion of people completing self fit-outs and also those buying fully completed new craft let the RCD lapse after a while and revert to the BSS? Or once the boat has RCD certification is it fairly straightforward to maintain?

I wasn't aware of the change either, which again underlines to me how out of touch I have become the last 4 years away from boat life. How did I not hear about that big change. 

The RCD doesn't really take maintaining as such, once a boat has an RCD , it has it, and usually,  if a new build, a BSS at the same point, or, as far as I know. Certainly regulated builders (CBA etc) had also to provide a BSS with the RCD when we were building. 

 

So, I can see in some ways, why the change, but it seems a bit of a pointless exercise too in other ways.  I imagine very basic saillway purchasers may never get round to having the assessment,  as hey, they have a manual, CE mark etc. Which then makes me think how very specific you need to be as the original builder now, to ensure later mistakes are not put at your feet. It doesn't make so much sense to me really.  After all, the CE mark is for a completed craft.  It includes final build weight, carry on weight, heel test info for people aboard on the builders  plate. Come to that, some fit outs would not make for a happy "builder" with their name marked to the boat as the builder, for the quick glance. The CIN was the completed craft, as it is numbered to include the date of first use as a boat....if fitted off water, that doesn't now make the same sense.

I wish I had been around for the initial discussions when this changed!

However, we digress!

Edited December 6, 2020 by Ally

[Alan de Enfield]

15 minutes ago, Ally said:

I wasn't aware of the change either, which again underlines to me how out of touch I have become the last 4 years away from boat life. How did I not hear about that big change. 

The RCD doesn't really take maintaining as such, once a boat has an RCD , it has it, and usually,  if a new build, a BSS at the same point, or, as far as I know. Certainly regulated builders (CBA etc) had also to provide a BSS with the RCD when we were building. 

 

So, I can see in some ways, why the change, but it seems a bit of a pointless exercise too in other ways.  I imagine very basic saillway purchasers may never get round to having the assessment,  as hey, they have a manual, CE mark etc. Which then makes me think how very specific you need to be as the original builder now, to ensure later mistakes are not put at your feet. It doesn't make so much sense to me really.  After all, the CE mark is for a completed craft.  It includes final build weight, carry on weight, heel test info for people aboard on the builders  plate. Come to that, some fit outs would not make for a happy "builder" with their name marked to the boat as the builder, for the quick glance. The CIN was the completed craft, as it is numbered to include the date of first use as a boat....if fitted off water, that doesn't now make the same sense.

I wish I had been around for the initial discussions when this changed!

However, we digress!

 

I believe it was primarily as the act of 'selling' the boat (at whatever stage) was 'putting it on the market' so was a conflict that a non-compliant boat could be sold 'on the market'.

 

Making available on the market

28.—(1) Before making a product available on the market, a distributor must verify that—

(a)the product—

(i)bears the CE marking;

(ii)is accompanied by the required documents;

(iii)is accompanied by the instructions and safety information in a language that can be easily understood by consumers and other end-users in the Member State in which the product is to be made available on the market; and

(b)the manufacturer has complied with the requirements of—

(i)regulation 13 (duty of manufacturers to ensure products are labelled); and

(ii)regulation 14 (duty to provide information); and

(c)the importer has complied with the requirements of regulation 21 (duty of importers to ensure products are labelled).

(2) For the purposes of this regulation “required documents” has the same meaning as in regulation 19(2) (requirements that must be satisfied before an importer places a product on the market).

 

 

Duty to carry out the post construction assessment

43.—(1) Before putting a product into service a private importer must apply the procedure referred to in regulation 48 (requirements of the post-construction assessment) to that product if the manufacturer of the product has not already carried out the conformity assessment for the product concerned.

(2) Any person must, before placing or putting into service on the market—

(a)a propulsion engine or watercraft which has had a major engine modification or major craft conversion; or

(b)a watercraft which has had a change in its intended purpose so that it falls within scope of these Regulations

apply the procedure referred to in regulation 48 (requirements of the post-construction assessment).

(3) Any person placing on the market a watercraft built for own use before the end of the five-year period beginning on the day on which the watercraft was put into service, must apply the procedure referred to in regulation 48 before placing the watercraft on the market.

 

We should remember that on the 'continent' there are comparatively few (compared to the UK) boats bought as shells and fitted out by amateurs.

My (limited) experience of continental 'self builds' is that they build from the ground up, very few are steel (I do not know about Holland) so its a case of make amould and produce a fibreglass hull then fit out.

Its not as common as here.

 

I think it comes back to boat ownership being a serious thing requiring Government registration, skipper qualifications, what sized engine you have dictate where you can go (how far offshore for example) so maybe people want to have the confidence of buying a 'factory built boat' to ensure it is safe.

Edited December 6, 2020 by Alan de Enfield

[TheBiscuits]

23 minutes ago, Ally said:

once a boat has an RCD , it has it, and usually,  if a new build, a BSS at the same point, or, as far as I know.

 

CRT and the EA accept a new build RCD in place of a BSS certificate for the first four years.

[Ally]

15 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

I believe it was primarily as the act of 'selling' the boat (at whatever stage) was 'putting it on the market' so was a conflict that a non-compliant boat could be sold 'on the market'.

 

Making available on the market

28.—(1) Before making a product available on the market, a distributor must verify that—

(a)the product—

(i)bears the CE marking;

(ii)is accompanied by the required documents;

(iii)is accompanied by the instructions and safety information in a language that can be easily understood by consumers and other end-users in the Member State in which the product is to be made available on the market; and

(b)the manufacturer has complied with the requirements of—

(i)regulation 13 (duty of manufacturers to ensure products are labelled); and

(ii)regulation 14 (duty to provide information); and

(c)the importer has complied with the requirements of regulation 21 (duty of importers to ensure products are labelled).

(2) For the purposes of this regulation “required documents” has the same meaning as in regulation 19(2) (requirements that must be satisfied before an importer places a product on the market).

 

 

Duty to carry out the post construction assessment

43.—(1) Before putting a product into service a private importer must apply the procedure referred to in regulation 48 (requirements of the post-construction assessment) to that product if the manufacturer of the product has not already carried out the conformity assessment for the product concerned.

(2) Any person must, before placing or putting into service on the market—

(a)a propulsion engine or watercraft which has had a major engine modification or major craft conversion; or

(b)a watercraft which has had a change in its intended purpose so that it falls within scope of these Regulations

apply the procedure referred to in regulation 48 (requirements of the post-construction assessment).

(3) Any person placing on the market a watercraft built for own use before the end of the five-year period beginning on the day on which the watercraft was put into service, must apply the procedure referred to in regulation 48 before placing the watercraft on the market.

 

We should remember that on the 'continent' there are comparatively few (compared to the UK) boats bought as shells and fitted out by amateurs.

My (limited) experience of continental 'self builds' is that they build from the ground up, very few are steel (I do not know about Holland) so its a case of make amould and produce a fibreglass hull then fit out.

Its not as common as here.

 

I think it comes back to boat ownership being a serious thing requiring Government registration, skipper qualifications, what sized engine you have dictate where you can go (how far offshore for example) so maybe people want to have the confidence of buying a 'factory built boat' to ensure it is safe.

Thanks for that. I suppose then it is more to meet general requirements of articles for sale within the EU really . Glad to be updated. Interesting there is still the 5 year get out clause.

[Ally]

6 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

CRT and the EA accept a new build RCD in place of a BSS certificate for the first four years.

Yes, they always have done for licencing. I was making the point that a BSS was also given on completed new builds, by CBA builders, which I thought was a good move as it generally meant an independent inspection was also made. I remember hearing of people with newbuilds,  failing their first bss on a basic that should have been correct but clearly wasn't, on launch. Belt and braces! ?