20/30 year life span of wooden boats

[Nick Davis]

Hi everyone 

I’m just sending a brief post to challenge the notion that a restored wooden narrow boat has a life span of just 20/30 years. The boat I own is SE Barlows Boat Hood, she underwent phase one of her major rebuild at Bates boatyard back in 1996 ish by the then owner, a very talented builder called Bill George. I bought the boat from Bill in 2003 and my partner and I continued where he left off by replacing the front and back ends (to keep a long story short)

just three original planks remain along with some keelson and engine bearers.

Much of Hood is now 24ish years old and the rest is 17 years old and as I sit here I can say with all honesty that not a single piece of wood needs replacement and the bilge even beneath the back cabin floor is completely dry she takes on no water at all. This being said she does require a week to ten days in dock every year with an estimated 150/200 hours of labour and all the modern materials at my disposal to maintain her to this level. Thankfully my partner Anita and I are able to carry out all the maintenance.

I am quite simply obsessed with her longevity.

In addition to maintaining her in dock we pour wood preservative under the floor and generously splash and spray it into as much of the internal hull as we can. 

It is simply impossible that Hood will be at the end of her life in just a few years. It will be interesting to see just how long a boat vigorously maintained will last. I am currently moored near to Tar tanker Severn that is 25 years since restoration and she is in very good condition. In addition to her are my neighbours Venus(Harland and Wolf, yes really) and Myra (walkers) both of whom have suffered many years of neglect since their restorations 30 or so years ago and despite requiring some restoration still have huge amounts of excellent timber in them.

I have worked on many wooden hulls  back when this was my job and I was often astonished by the resilience of these boats after their retirement from hard work.

If you’d like to see the extensive restoration work that Bill and myself carried out on Hood please visit Facebook page Narrowboat Hood and have a look at the different albums showing the stages of restoration (the actual posts on the page don’t show much, it’s all in the albums)

The work we carried out was under the guidance of Jem Bates and to this day we have not had to replace any planks from this restoration.

You may also like to have a look at Ade’s recent restoration of Dane, where I believe they kept much of the wood put in by (I think) John Woolley 40 years ago.

Cheers Nick

Edited February 23, 2020 by Nick Davis

[pete harrison]

Can I assume you are responding to my post in a different thread:

 

 

Clearly there are wooden boats that receive the correct maintenance and attention as you describe above, and in theory these boats could last forever. In my experience of 'historic' narrow boats (50 years) this is not the case with the majority of wooden hulls, which is why almost all of those wooden narrow boats I remember back in my youth have long since been broken up. You have hit 'the nail on the head' when you discuss the regular dockings and man hours involved, and you are perhaps fortunate to have had the opportunity to learn the required skills to maintain a wooden narrow boat so reduce your costs - but this will never be the case for every owner. I have visited Jem's yard on numerous occasions over the years and it is great to see these wooden narrow boats in their various stages of preservation.

 

I based my 20 to 30 years lifespan for a working wooden narrow boat from documents such as carrying company records and gauge tables, and of course there were exceptions with some lasting longer and some lasting shorter 

 

[Derek R.]

It might also be considered that the 'working life' was just that. Loaded and unloaded weekly would produce stresses and strains that a boat in retirement from such work would not recieve. Lovely to see wooden boats still about and probably more so to steer.

 

I always remember IAN being turned in Aylesbury basin by the then owner (early 1980's). The JP just above tickover without recourse to touching the throttle, turned as sweet as a nut.

[Pluto]

To some extent it depends upon the type of fastenings. Iron or steel spikes can cause major problems when they react with the tannic acid in oak. Some Weaver flats built with trunnels had a long life, this being put down to the conservation effect of the salt, which had no ironwork to affect. Also, the boats we are comparing with were often those rebuilt or built just post-war, when the quality of wood could be poor. Today, I suspect more effort is made to source good timber, and the lack of cargo makes preservation of the interior side of the hold much easier. They certainly get less knocking about than when carrying cargo. All of these will have an effect on the length of time between major rebuilds.

[Nick Davis]

Hi Pete,

I did read your post and I understand that you were referring to the working life of wooden boats during the working days which as Derek has quite rightly pointed out would shorten the useful life of the boats.

I Imagine replacing a boat with a newer one would be more cost effective than frequent down time on boats 25 years or more old at a time when business was good and Walkers were building new boats at a rate of nearly one a week.

I suppose I wanted to attempt to dispel the myth propagated by many people that a restored boat requires restoration all over again after 25 years this has been said to me several times over the years. I had a conversation with Chris Collins on this subject last time he was in dock at Bulborne with Roger some 20 years after he brilliantly rebuild her, she only required the usual caulking and blacking.

Only time will tell how long wooden boats in the modern era will last.

[David Mack]

41 minutes ago, Pluto said:

To some extent it depends upon the type of fastenings. Iron or steel spikes can cause major problems when they react with the tannic acid in oak. Some Weaver flats built with trunnels had a long life, this being put down to the conservation effect of the salt, which had no ironwork to affect. 

 

The Wych Barges on the Droitwich salt trade were reputed to be long lasting due to the preservation effects of the salt. Were they built without iron fixings?

[Nick Davis]

I'm not entirely sure if iron fixings are better than steel I suspect that iron lasts longer but in terms of rot appearing around fixings I don't think there's a lot of difference. Boats in salt water do seem to last longer than their fresh water counter parts perhaps this is due in part to organisms that decay wood preferring a fresh water environment.

Hood's fixings are nearly all coach screws and bolts and some repurposed spikes all of which were galvanised first. I did find a couple years ago that I was able to slacken off the coach screws on the bottom boards put in15 years earlier caulk the chine joint then tighten. I have found a facility to reverse and tighten fixings an advantage over spikes when maintaining a boat but other may disagree.

All that being said its rain water that shortens the life of narrowboats it's been a lot harder to keep out than canal water so liberal application of rubber, epoxy and paint is more crucial than the metallurgy of fixtures.

[Nick Davis]

3 hours ago, Derek R. said:

It might also be considered that the 'working life' was just that. Loaded and unloaded weekly would produce stresses and strains that a boat in retirement from such work would not recieve. Lovely to see wooden boats still about and probably more so to steer.

 

I always remember IAN being turned in Aylesbury basin by the then owner (early 1980's). The JP just above tickover without recourse to touching the throttle, turned as sweet as a nut.

I agree Derek re constant hard working life.

I have also heard that Ian steers well I wish I could say the same about Hood but she doesn't steer well at all turning left never really worked it out, prop direction? Everyone else can turn left drives me nuts.

 

1 hour ago, David Mack said:

 

The Wych Barges on the Droitwich salt trade were reputed to be long lasting due to the preservation effects of the salt. Were they built without iron fixings?

I didn't know this about Wych barges no iron fixings how fascinating thanks 

[Paddle]

13 hours ago, Nick Davis said:

I am quite simply obsessed with her longevity.

Wonderful! And long may your obsession remain, and long may HOOD continue to give you much joy and may you continue to give HOOD much attention.

 

200 hours at, what would a sensible rate be, £25? per hour (including VAT) £50?, plus materials plus docking. You're 'spending' 6-8k annually on this boat as an absolute minimum, plus all the other faffing - and you get to be pickled in wood preserver.

 

There are 212 Austin Allegros left in the UK (in 2018) https://www.howmanyleft.co.uk/?page=1&q=allegro which proves that they have a lifespan of forty years or more in the hands of those obsessed with their longevity. But given that they built 642,350 of them maybe it doesn't prove the more general statement. ?

 

I'd suggest that the majority of wooden boats don't get the love, care and attention that you obviously lavish on HOOD, and as a result stick to the normal 25-ish year cycle. Poor old GIFFORD was extensively rebuilt at the 23 year stage when only expecting a bit of painting. https://hnbc.org.uk/boats/gifford 

 

Interesting to contrast working and non-working boats. The prime decay spot I understand is at the waterline where the water meets the air. Working boats are regularly loaded and unloaded whereas retired boats spend the majority of their time sitting at their moorings. Does this mean that the waterline area subject to this enhanced decay rate in a working boat is two feet deep, or does it mean that the enhanced-decay-rate region doesn't exist in the same way?

[Nick Davis]

23 minutes ago, Paddle said:

Wonderful! And long may your obsession remain, and long may HOOD continue to give you much joy and may you continue to give HOOD much attention.

 

200 hours at, what would a sensible rate be, £25? per hour (including VAT) £50?, plus materials plus docking. You're 'spending' 6-8k annually on this boat as an absolute minimum, plus all the other faffing - and you get to be pickled in wood preserver.

 

There are 212 Austin Allegros left in the UK (in 2018) https://www.howmanyleft.co.uk/?page=1&q=allegro which proves that they have a lifespan of forty years or more in the hands of those obsessed with their longevity. But given that they built 642,350 of them maybe it doesn't prove the more general statement. ?

 

I'd suggest that the majority of wooden boats don't get the love, care and attention that you obviously lavish on HOOD, and as a result stick to the normal 25-ish year cycle. Poor old GIFFORD was extensively rebuilt at the 23 year stage when only expecting a bit of painting. https://hnbc.org.uk/boats/gifford 

 

Interesting to contrast working and non-working boats. The prime decay spot I understand is at the waterline where the water meets the air. Working boats are regularly loaded and unloaded whereas retired boats spend the majority of their time sitting at their moorings. Does this mean that the waterline area subject to this enhanced decay rate in a working boat is two feet deep, or does it mean that the enhanced-decay-rate region doesn't exist in the same way?

Hi, just be be clear I don't personally spend 6to8k per annum on maintenance luckily, I couldn't afford that. We do all the labour ourselves so our annual maintenance cost is more like £1,200 to 1,500 docking fees and materials however you are right anyone wishing to own and maintain a restored boat and do none of the work themselves should expect annual costs of 6k ish to maintain it fully.

 

I can't honestly comment on Gifford as I've never worked on her and don't know anything about her rebuilds etc.

 

I've often had my boat compared to Trigger's broom stick but never an Austin allegro....hysterical! I suspect a lack of desirability may account for there dwindling numbers although having said that I really like them. I think with boats it's the costs or the hard work that put people off I can understand that.

I suppose it's sort of a love affair.

 

As for the water line thing your right there absolutely but to reiterate it's those joints out of water allowed to draw in the rain and hang wet for long periods that suffer badly hence the 200 hours and constant reapplication of paint much of the work is above the water line. 

[Nick Davis]

18 hours ago, Paddle said:

Wonderful! And long may your obsession remain, and long may HOOD continue to give you much joy and may you continue to give HOOD much attention.

 

200 hours at, what would a sensible rate be, £25? per hour (including VAT) £50?, plus materials plus docking. You're 'spending' 6-8k annually on this boat as an absolute minimum, plus all the other faffing - and you get to be pickled in wood preserver.

 

There are 212 Austin Allegros left in the UK (in 2018) https://www.howmanyleft.co.uk/?page=1&q=allegro which proves that they have a lifespan of forty years or more in the hands of those obsessed with their longevity. But given that they built 642,350 of them maybe it doesn't prove the more general statement. ?

 

I'd suggest that the majority of wooden boats don't get the love, care and attention that you obviously lavish on HOOD, and as a result stick to the normal 25-ish year cycle. Poor old GIFFORD was extensively rebuilt at the 23 year stage when only expecting a bit of painting. https://hnbc.org.uk/boats/gifford 

 

Interesting to contrast working and non-working boats. The prime decay spot I understand is at the waterline where the water meets the air. Working boats are regularly loaded and unloaded whereas retired boats spend the majority of their time sitting at their moorings. Does this mean that the waterline area subject to this enhanced decay rate in a working boat is two feet deep, or does it mean that the enhanced-decay-rate region doesn't exist in the same way?

Thanks for that link to Gifford I hadn't see those pictures it certainly does demonstrate the need to maintain constantly. What amazing work Ade Polgase and Andy cox do at AP boatbuilding.

[Derek R.]

Nick, you can pass these on to your neighbour if you like. Taken at Middlewich in '83 or '88, I think maybe the former.

 

 

 

 

[Nick Davis]

8 hours ago, Derek R. said:

Nick, you can pass these on to your neighbour if you like. Taken at Middlewich in '83 or '88, I think maybe the former.

 

 

 

 

Wow! Its Venus! what incredible pictures I'll pass them on to Scott who owns her now he will be thrilled. Thank you so much. 

I know her previous owner too Ben Kitchen in fact he will staying in my back cabin tomorrow! He and I replaced most of the back end some 13/14 years ago in Jem Bate's yard the curved shapes in the swim are second to none. I have a huge affection for this boat.

Thanks again for sharing these

Nick

[Derek R.]

You're welcome.

[Matthew gray]

Hello all!

 

I am the great grandson of Ada and Dick Littlemore, I'm trying to get in touch with @Nick Davis regarding my nans (Gladys) old boat HOOD, I believe you may have spoken with my dad Alan Gray a while back.

 

We are in Banbury and I would love to get in touch to get some recent photos of my nans old boat so she can see how it looks to this day, she doesn't have too many more years left in her now but I know seeing this would really jog her memory.

 

Please do get in touch!

[Bee]

Also of course a wooden boat rots everywhere from the top down wheras a metal boat only corrodes below the waterline (Just a bit of generalisation there!)

[ditchcrawler]

3 hours ago, Matthew gray said:

Hello all!

 

I am the great grandson of Ada and Dick Littlemore, I'm trying to get in touch with @Nick Davis regarding my nans (Gladys) old boat HOOD, I believe you may have spoken with my dad Alan Gray a while back.

 

We are in Banbury and I would love to get in touch to get some recent photos of my nans old boat so she can see how it looks to this day, she doesn't have too many more years left in her now but I know seeing this would really jog her memory.

 

Please do get in touch!

Welcome to the forum, I hope you get your information

[David Mack]

5 hours ago, Matthew gray said:

I'm trying to get in touch with @Nick Davis 

I wish you luck with your search, but Nick hasn't logged into the forum since July 2020, so it's unlikely he will see your request.

 

If anybody here knows where HOOD is moored now they might be able to pass on a message or perhaps leave a note on the boat asking the owner to contact Matthew.

[Matthew gray]

56 minutes ago, David Mack said:

I wish you luck with your search, but Nick hasn't logged into the forum since July 2020, so it's unlikely he will see your request.

 

If anybody here knows where HOOD is moored now they might be able to pass on a message or perhaps leave a note on the boat asking the owner to contact Matthew.

Thankyou! 

 

Last i heard it was moored up in Tring, which is only about an hour drive away from myself, it would be great to see it in all it's glory and possibly even bring my nan along to see it in person, she may even be able to offer further history of the boat to the current owners, the author of "Ramblin Rose" spoke to the youngest sister Jenny for her book however didn't speak to my nan who was actually working with her parents on the boat at the time.

[Matthew gray]

3 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

Welcome to the forum, I hope you get your information

Thankyou!

[Ray T]

@Matthew gray you have a PM.

[Matthew gray]

11 minutes ago, Ray T said:

@Matthew gray you have a PM.

Thankyou!

[MtB]

32 minutes ago, Ray T said:

@Matthew gray you have a PM.

 

Ray, with just four posts do you think Mtthew will be able to access it? 

 

Don't new members need more posts than that?

 

 

[Ray T]

Mike he has received the PM, thank you for asking.

[Matthew gray]

Thankyou all! Nick got in touch today much much faster than anticipated!