Cheap Engines

[ChrisPy]

I think it is a typo by Chris put in the word 'not' between does and have

thanks for the clarification.

Hi Chris.Of course I already knew that, but who is to say that the engines will not comply and readily attain certification. We must also be very wary of commercial protectionism.

John, I wasn't suggesting that it does not comply. I really don't know. But one of the reasons that compliant products cost more is that the company has to invest in new quality initiatives and independent testing, etc. just to provide evidence of compliance and claim the RCD DoC. I don't see how arranging for certification to RCD standards can be equated to or associated with commercial protectionism, unless you subscribe to a conspiracy theory that the purpose of the RCD and all the other European Directives is primarily intended to exclude outsiders. That wouldn't make sense because anyone can arrange the testing and certification if he is motivated to do so.The result of not doing so may be like what Mattel toys are now experiencing ....................

[Big Steve]

I wrote to Budgetboat asking for comments, here is the reply:

 

Thank you for your e-mail voicing your concerns over my business. I will try and answer all the questions you have put to me as honestly as possible. Yes I was a director of VK1 Ltd of which there were 4. our business was a 3 store off-licence. However by November of 2004 two of the sites owned by us were forced to close due to supermarkets close by. It was at this point 2 directors decided they would like to leave. In November 04 we disolved VK1 ltd and myself and 1 other director formed VK1 ( a partnership not a ltd company). We still run VK1 as an off-licence, turnover for 06-07 was £454,000 you can see the business here www.vkone.co.uk . This business enables me to follow other paths. I founded www.budgetboat.co.uk from the coffers of VK1 which is why VK1 and not VK1 ltd own the site. this information can be found here http://whois.domaintools.com/budgetboat.co.uk I am not running a company to steal anyones deposit. I formed budget boat after trying to find a new engine for my Colvic only to realise I couldn't afford one. you can see from the website that the whole operation only started in July of this year and overall interest and feedback have been good. I have spent a lot of time and my own money in getting engines here as well as a stock of parts. It is my hope that the business will grow and provide for it's own future. in time I will set up a distribution network and I already have 6 existing engine retailers who would like to sell the engines. You must be aware that when you set up a business from an idea you must make sure it can walk before sinking thousands of pounds into it. We all have to start somewhere. the engines are made by the Yangdong company in China you can find information on them here http://www.china-manufacturer-directory.co...ong-co-ltd.html as you can see they are no mickey mouse outfit. I was lucky enough to obtain rights from them to sell the engines here in the UK as I believe that they represent value for money. I have engines on the boat to me now and they will arrive on the 26th of September. I am sending one for assessment and testing at the Levington branch of French marine http://www.frenchmarine.com/ . The remaining engines are for stock and prospective dealers with one going into a test boat in October. Given the feedback and prospective customer base I am sure that I will have no problem selling them. I will then order more and carry a running stock level here in the UK, engines can then be delivered from stock on a COD basis or customer collects. Deposits will only be taken from customers on a non standard gearbox ratio ( something like 1:1) as these engines are built to order and I have to pay for them well in advance. As a new company I do not have the wealth to go out and buy 20 engines with various ratios based on what may sell. The engines will come with 1.88:1 or 2:1 as this seems to be the biggest demand. where deposits are taken they are refundable and we are not trying to take a large deposit and run. My mobile number is listed on the web site as this is the best way to contact me rather than leaving a message on my landline. I also think that member Mayalld has made comments that are not only unfair they border on slander. I am glad that members of your forum such as john orentas can see both sides of the coin. Having said that my answer above deals with the deposit issue. The engines do not carry an EU certificate but if they take off I will pursue this avenue as I have been advised they do comply. I hope this answers your questions and if you wish to ask anything else my e mail is vk1stu@hotmail.com or you can call me direct on 01394278603 or 01394285317 or 07979416650 or use the contact us at either site listed above. I have been as transparent as possible in my reply and I hope that future posts here http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php...&hl=engines will show this. I believe these engines are not 'skip fillers' as I stand to lose more than anyone else. As a new start I thank you for your comments.

I think this appears to be informative and honest, best of luck to the bloke.

Note that I have no connection with this firm, I'm just trying to get the best deal for when I have to change my engine which may be soon.

 

Steve

[ChrisPy]

I would be surprised if it is legal to put an engine on the market in Europe if it does not carry the appropriate CE marking which I assume will require it to comply with one or more European Directives.

[Gary Peacock]

I would be surprised if it is legal to put an engine on the market in Europe if it does not carry the appropriate CE marking which I assume will require it to comply with one or more European Directives.

 

If you just want a cheap engine the lack of documentation wont be a problem.

 

But for a commercial boat builder it would be and the same would apply to a self build if RCD conformity was going to be achieved.

 

I would imagine these engines with conformity and documentation would find a ready market in the budget narrowboat market, there are already a couple of lesser known contenders emerging.

 

If he gets the paperwork sorted I might be interested in adding them to what we have to offer.

Edited September 12, 2007 by Gary Peacock

[ChrisPy]

If you just want a cheap engine the lack of documentation wont be a problem.

Gary, I was thinking more about the overall market for diesel engines in Europe, not just restricted to RCD compliance.

[KenK]

Gary, I was thinking more about the overall market for diesel engines in Europe, not just restricted to RCD compliance.

 

Chris,

If they declare that the engine complies with the relevant directive(s) it's down to you to prove they don't. Every time I have to read the low voltage directive to decide whether something from overseas complies I first wrap my head in a wet towel, keeps the headache away a little longer.

 

Ken

[Gary Peacock]

Gary, I was thinking more about the overall market for diesel engines in Europe, not just restricted to RCD compliance.

 

Yes I tend to agree one grey import for your personal use is not a problem but actively commercially marketing them is.

 

I new someone who got their fingers burned with those silly mini motorbikes he bought a load legitimately and was then he thought was selling them legitimately but got jumped on by trading standards because the documentation and standards were all non European, the bottom line was they were in effect lemons and he was told in no uncertain terms he would be prosecuted if he sold them.

 

I would imagine this is much the same.

Edited September 12, 2007 by Gary Peacock

[John Orentas]

I would be surprised if it is legal to put an engine on the market in Europe if it does not carry the appropriate CE marking which I assume will require it to comply with one or more European Directives.

 

 

It is conventional that the importer of the product arranges the documentation and in particular the CE marking. It is a very straightforward thing to do, just requiring certificates of compliance from the engine and gearbox manufacturer and any other additional components such as alternators engine mounts and anything which is not included in the original package.

Edited September 12, 2007 by John Orentas

[reg]

First of all I would like to thank Big Steve for taking the initative and contacting Budgetboats. I think the reply is as comprehensive as could be expected.

Good luck to this business, I hope it goes well. I do think many areas may be in for a big shake up once the Chinese goods start to deliver.

[chris w]

."............I also think that member Mayalld has made comments that are not only unfair they border on slander..........

 

This guy doesn't seem very knowledgable on the law considering he's been in business a while.

 

First of all it would be "libel" not "slander" and secondly Mayalid's comments didn't even remotely border on libel. He merely posed some questions and expressed an opinion based on public domain information. His opinions would fall under the legal definition of "fair comment". He certainly didn't accuse these guys of anything unlawful or something which was intended to maliciously defame them.

 

One has to ask also why the original (off-licence) company failed if these guys are business-savvy. The reason given is because of competition from supermarkets. Well yes that would be an obvious thing to look at when one sets up the business and (as with every business) one needs a differentiator or one will eventually go bust. What's the story?

 

My understanding too is that all items sold with the EC require a CE mark or they cannot legally be sold.

 

Chris

[Big Steve]

Everything from China has a CE mark, it means "China Exempt"

 

My reading of the e mail is that the business didn't go under, they closed 2 of the stores because they had too much competition from supermarkets, this meant they didn't need 4 partners or a ltd company. so it was dissolved. The 2 remaining parties then carried on running the remaining store. Sounds reasonable and perfect sense to me.

 

I can't agree with his comments re Mayalld, but if it was your company you were trying to get up and running and someone, who by their own admission had done 5 minutes research, where casting nasturtions, you might be a bit miffed too. As for the difference between libel and slander, who cares.

 

If he's selling them as replacement engines, do they have to comply with all the new regs?

 

Steve

[chris w]

Everything from China has a CE mark, it means "China Exempt"

 

My reading of the e mail is that the business didn't go under, they closed 2 of the stores because they had too much competition from supermarkets, this meant they didn't need 4 partners or a ltd company. so it was dissolved. The 2 remaining parties then carried on running the remaining store. Sounds reasonable and perfect sense to me.

 

I can't agree with his comments re Mayalld, but if it was your company you were trying to get up and running and someone, who by their own admission had done 5 minutes research, where casting nasturtions, you might be a bit miffed too.

Steve

 

Yes but it shows a possible lack of business acumen if he starts slagging off forum members, about whom he knows nothing and/or whether their opinions carry any weight or not.

 

If he's trying to win business amongst us, inter alia, one would think that he would just give his explanation as he did and not spoil it, IMHO, by making detrimental comments about forum members who were merely expressing justifiable hesitation.

 

Afterall, it was comments like Mayalid's that presumably prompted him to respond to us anyway.

 

Chris

[KenK]

My understanding too is that all items sold with the EC require a CE mark or they cannot legally be sold.

 

Chris

 

As a company we import equipment from around the world for resale in Europe. The CE leglislation is a minefield. If it has to comply with one of the increasing number of directives then you need a CE mark along with the relevant documentation. An engine would need a Certificate of Incorporation and a declaration that it met the Low voltage and Machinery directives for example. Of course a company can self certify so in reality if they say it's ok it's up to you to prove it's not. The directives are so badly written and open to interpretation and if you ask the relevant authority what it means, the answer is "what do you think it means". These days everything seems to have a CE mark but it's not required for lots of things.

 

Ken

[Big Steve]

As it happens, he was making this comment to me in a personal E mail. I asked if he'd mind if I published it and he agreed. Considering the nasty snide remarks that get made on this site on occasion, I would have thought you'd all have thick enough skins to be able to take a bit of slagging off. If I had thought Mayalld was so precious I would have edited it out, but I don't think he is. I'm sure he'll take the comments in his stride, and if he is bothered, I'm equally sure he'll give as good as he gets.

 

Any way, give it a rest, all I'm trying to do is find out if these engines are any good, and now we're in to legal hair splitting.

 

Steve

 

PS I've just had another e mail from Budget boats, the engines are CE marked and come with full documentation, and the Chinese factory is ISO 90001 for what that's worth. It's looking good.

Edited September 12, 2007 by Big Steve

[smileypete]

Hi,

 

I'd ask about spares availability and pricing before getting one.

 

Eg if the starter/oil pump/water pump fails how quickly can a spare be obtained? How much is a full set of gaskets?

 

Do they have a list of spares available off the shelf and their prices?

 

This is where Chinese manufacturers tend to lag behind.

 

What would be ideal is designing the engine around existing bits, then pattern producing the bits to keep costs down.

 

Might be possible to get a lister engined dumper off Ebay for around 1k, that would come with some potentially useful lumps of steel too

 

cheers,

Pete.

[tomsk]

Yes but it shows a possible lack of business acumen if he starts slagging off forum members, about whom he knows nothing and/or whether their opinions carry any weight or not.

 

If he's trying to win business amongst us, inter alia, one would think that he would just give his explanation as he did and not spoil it, IMHO, by making detrimental comments about forum members who were merely expressing justifiable hesitation.

 

Afterall, it was comments like Mayalid's that presumably prompted him to respond to us anyway.

 

Chris

 

 

Inter alia

[5thHorseman]

Nah, it'll never catch on they don't know what they are doing.

Just what was said about Japanese motorcycles & cars, Taiwanese electronics, Korean televisions, far eastern clothes, machine tools, shipping, mobile phones, etc.

 

From the canals, we of all people, see the industrial wastelands created over the last thirty years

 

The Koreans may have the highest IQ but the Chinese are considered the best business people in the world.

 

HMI Isuzu marine 42 £5050 plus VAT, Chinese 49hp £2795 including VAT - If my business was engines I would be afraid, no, no, I would be terrified

[Guest]

Nah, it'll never catch on they don't know what they are doing.

Just what was said about Japanese motorcycles & cars, Taiwanese electronics, Korean televisions, far eastern clothes, machine tools, shipping, mobile phones, etc.

 

From the canals, we of all people, see the industrial wastelands created over the last thirty years

 

The Koreans may have the highest IQ but the Chinese are considered the best business people in the world.

 

HMI Isuzu marine 42 £5050 plus VAT, Chinese 49hp £2795 including VAT - If my business was engines I would be afraid, no, no, I would be terrified

Don't forget NARROWBOATS coming from other shores too. Who would have bet money on that one a few years ago?

[Gary Peacock]

Don't forget NARROWBOATS coming from other shores too. Who would have bet money on that one a few years ago?

 

I think a few people can see over the horizon and a whole new power in manufacturing including the traditional ditch crawling world is coming!

[5thHorseman]

Don't forget NARROWBOATS coming from other shores too. Who would have bet money on that one a few years ago?

 

Absolutely, if I was, for example, a reasonable sized hire boat operator, over this winter I would have an engine in one of my boats to trial next season so fast you would see the rubber tyre marks for miles down the motorway.

 

Edit -

and it gets worse just found this http://diesel-engines.assettrader.co.uk/1/...--1-500-rpm.htm

 

A 34hp V4 turbo business end for $1100 - £550 - strike the word terrified - replace with suicidal

Edited September 12, 2007 by 5thHorseman

[Guest]

Sorry this is off topic, but I have no doubt that the Chinese and others will be producing top quality marine engines. We first had a family canal boat in 1966 with an American (Canadian?) Johnson outboard. Some kind soul took ownership of it (canal crime is a modern problem?) and we bought a Yamaha outboard which I believe were fairly new then. It caused a bit of controversy amongst other boaters, many claiming they wouldn't last. As the cliché goes, the rest is history.

sorry I'll be quiet now.

[Serendipity]

and we bought a Yamaha outboard which I believe were fairly new then. It caused a bit of controversy amongst other boaters, many claiming they wouldn't last. As the cliché goes, the rest is history.

 

An early adopter, which is what these need. The information surrounding the engines and the guy importing them is looking a lot more positive (although if it were me I'd have started up with a newly registered ltd co, and paid a couple of pounds more to have a proper e-mail address based on the domain name he's already using for the site).

 

However, how big a user base would you imagine is required to justify a proper spares chanel that holds stock (and I'm thinking of more esoteric items than regular service spares?

 

So, yes it can and does happen, but I in the case of Yamaha and Honda it's a planned assault where a lot of money is spent up front putting these chanels in place which are hugely unprofitable in the years untill they ultimately achieve the market saturation they planned for.

 

I admire any entreprenuer, and wish this guy good luck, but it requires an enormous leap of faith on the part of early adopters. I would be concerned that having bought one of these engines, he decides in a year down the line that it's not working out and shuts shop. I now need a head gasket - it's going to be interesting going straight back to the manufacturer and ordering the correct one with the language barrier - even if they were interested in one off-sales, which I suspect aint going to be cheap.

 

Now if there were an international agency for these spares, that might be a different matter.

 

Edited to say:- BTW Catty, did you ever get your CW DVD's in the end?

Edited September 13, 2007 by Serendipity

[Guest]

An early adopter, which is what these need. The information surrounding the engines and the guy importing them is looking a lot more positive (although if it were me I'd have started up with a newly registered ltd co, and paid a couple of pounds more to have a proper e-mail address based on the domain name he's already using for the site).

 

However, how big a user base would you imagine is required to justify a proper spares chanel that holds stock (and I'm thinking of more esoteric items than regular service spares?

 

So, yes it can and does happen, but I in the case of Yamaha and Honda it's a planned assault where a lot of money is spent up front putting these chanels in place which are hugely unprofitable in the years untill they ultimately achieve the market saturation they planned for.

 

I admire any entreprenuer, and wish this guy good luck, but it requires an enormous leap of faith on the part of early adopters. I would be concerned that having bought one of these engines, he decides in a year down the line that it's not working out and shuts shop. I now need a head gasket - it's going to be interesting going straight back to the manufacturer and ordering the correct one with the language barrier - even if they were interested in one off-sales, which I suspect aint going to be cheap.

 

Now if there were an international agency for these spares, that might be a different matter.

 

Edited to say:- BTW Catty, did you ever get your CW DVD's in the end?

 

Yes got them thanks!

[chris w]

As it happens, he was making this comment to me in a personal E mail. I asked if he'd mind if I published it and he agreed. Considering the nasty snide remarks that get made on this site on occasion, I would have thought you'd all have thick enough skins to be able to take a bit of slagging off. If I had thought Mayalld was so precious I would have edited it out, but I don't think he is. I'm sure he'll take the comments in his stride, and if he is bothered, I'm equally sure he'll give as good as he gets.

 

Steve

 

I wasn't implying that any of us would actually be offended by what he said, rather that it seemed oddly immature, business-wise, to make the comment to potential customers. I wouldn't want to do business with him. It's hard enough dealing with my own attitude problem!!

 

Chris

 

Inter alia

 

I'll help you out with your education and edification Tomsk - it means "amongst other things".

 

Chris

Edited September 13, 2007 by chris w

[pagan witch]

Re certification and emisions :-

 

Anyone seen Al Gore's 'Inconvenient Truth' ?

 

In it he states (no pun intended) that the motor manufacturers of the USA are refusing to sign up to emision regulations that the Chinese achieved over a decade ago for fear of additional costs - and here we are asking about emissions ?

 

Gore is very scathing about this and given his very high profile I daresay that he has got his facts right else by now he'd have sued from here to eternity.

 

I agree this chap has set about things in a slightly odd way re the web address and mobile but equally has given everyone an opportunity to check him out by providing plenty of information. Also is it right to judge someone as less than upright for only having a mobile ? I bet there's not many liveaboards or CC ers with a landline even those like myself that run a business (or in my case 2) from the boat. Good luck to him.