PLAY IN TILLER

[Guest]

After a long cruise this summer, the tiller on our boat has developed an amount of free play which is annoying. It is the type where the top bearing bolts to the counter with four bolts, and it seems that the play is occurring below this bearing somewhere. Any ideas? Thanks.

[Keeping Up]

Maybe at the bottom of the rudder, the shaft isn't sitting in the cup properly. It could be that a piece of gravel has got in there. Can you see if it has lifted up at all? One possible cure might be to try and wash it out by deliberately raising it slightly then revving the engine gently in gear (forwards of course, you don't want to suck the rudder towards the prop).

 

The other possibility is what happened to us once, when the shaft broke just above the rudder. But best not to think about that one!

 

Allan

[Liam]

We had sort of the same problem and when we were out in dry dock a couple of weeks ago we tried to look into the problem.

 

At first we thought the problem was where the rudder post goes into the skeg had been worn and therefore jumping about like in the picture below... but it turns out to be the top bearing, which as you describe is bolted via 4 bolts to the count. The bearing inside there is shot and needs replacing, but because yours seems to be coming from further down I'd check it out as shown in the pic...

 

Edited August 30, 2007 by Liam

[Timleech]

After a long cruise this summer, the tiller on our boat has developed an amount of free play which is annoying. It is the type where the top bearing bolts to the counter with four bolts, and it seems that the play is occurring below this bearing somewhere. Any ideas? Thanks.

 

Who built the hull?

Liverpool Boats and quite a few others use a rudder blade welded to a piece of tube, the rudder post slides inside this tube and is secured with two through bolts and one pinch bolt.

It's a p*ss poor system IMO, they are very prone to working loose. I've lost count of the numbers which I've dealt with, either with oversize or extra bolts and new pinch bolt, or simply by welding the tube to the post top & bottom.

You should be able to find your pinch bolt, if you have one, by reaching through the weedhatch, it'll be halfway down the rudder blade, usually on the Starboard side. You might be able to get some temporary respite by slackening off the locknut, tightening the bolt firmly, and retightening the locknut. Better, take out the pinch bolt & fit a new one.

 

Tim

[stuart]

Liverpool Boats and quite a few others use a rudder blade welded to a piece of tube, the rudder post slides inside this tube and is secured with two through bolts and one pinch bolt.

It's a p*ss poor system IMO,

 

 

 

I've got a Liv. Boat shell and its had play in the rudder for as long as I've had the boat! I'll have a go at what you suggest.

 

Ta.

[Khayamanzi]

Amazing to see this thread! I've just spent the first few weeks of the summer attempting to tighten up the bolts on mine for exactly the same problem!! I'm going to get it welded when next out of the water but only solved it by climbing in the water in the end to sort it out. I had to tighten the top and bottom bolts as well as the middle pinch bolt and only by swinging on the end of the spanner in the water did I solve it! It's been fine all summer since.

[blackrose]

I welded my LB rudder top and bottom as Tim described about a year ago when i was out for blacking after a bloke who worked in the yard told me it was shite. He asked me what I was going to do on the tidal Thames next time when it worked loose or the bolts sheared and left me with no steering!

 

The only problem with this is that if you do get a bent rudder for some reason and need to repair it you'll have to come out the water to get it off.

 

By the way catweasel, if your rudder stock does appear to be a bit higher than normal try stepping in it. Mine lifted up about an inch when i took the boat out the water on a tidal reach and ended up sitting on the skeg. Fortunately when the tide came in I stood on it it just popped back down and was fine.

Edited September 1, 2007 by blackrose

[Guest]

Thanks for suggestions and especially Liam for taking the trouble to post a photo. I think the poor pinch bolt method is the most likely explanation, but I feel if I weld it, it could present further problems later. How are better quality rudders manufactured, and can they still be removed without docking?

Cheers

CW

[John Orentas]

The conventional way to secure the rudder to it's post on a Liverpool boat is as Blackrose suggests is to weld them together, that play which always seem to be there tends to get progressively greater. In practise it is virtually impossible to carry out any repairs whilst in the water anyway. The weld can easily be ground off if separation is required at some later stage.

[blackrose]

The conventional way to secure the rudder to it's post on a Liverpool boat is as Blackrose suggests is to weld them together, that play which always seem to be there tends to get progressively greater. In practise it is virtually impossible to carry out any repairs whilst in the water anyway. The weld can easily be ground off if separation is required at some later stage.

 

But only if the boat comes out of the water. That's what I'll have to do if I ever have a problem with it.

 

I'm sure some rudders have a hole in the top to allow a rope to be passed through so that they can be lifted out of the skeg dropped down and then lifted out of the water. I'm not sure how the the bottom of the rudder stock & the tiller is separated in order to do this?

[Timleech]

I'm sure some rudders have a hole in the top to allow a rope to be passed through so that they can be lifted out of the skeg dropped down and then lifted out of the water. I'm not sure how the the bottom of the rudder stock & the tiller is separated in order to do this?

 

The 'proper' tried & tested construction uses a large diameter rudder tube through the counter. With the top bearing removed, this allows the complete rudder to be lifted out of the cup on the skeg and dropped out beside the skeg. The dodges such as the LB one described (there are some others out there) allow the use of a small tube through the counter and in theory allow the rudder to be dismantled wile afloat, without the need for a deep bit of canal.

 

Tim

[Timleech]

The conventional way to secure the rudder to it's post on a Liverpool boat is as Blackrose suggests is to weld them together, that play which always seem to be there tends to get progressively greater. In practise it is virtually impossible to carry out any repairs whilst in the water anyway. The weld can easily be ground off if separation is required at some later stage.

 

*One* conventional way is to weld the parts together.

 

I generally offer customers the option of welding or improving the original fixings, letting them decided based on the pros & cons of each.

 

Tim

[Guest]

*One* conventional way is to weld the parts together.

 

I generally offer customers the option of welding or improving the original fixings, letting them decided based on the pros & cons of each.

 

Tim

I can understand that welding is a cure. I wondered if perhaps a tapered pin and/or extra, more substantial pinchbolt may be another possibility?

[Timleech]

I can understand that welding is a cure. I wondered if perhaps a tapered pin and/or extra, more substantial pinchbolt may be another possibility?

 

The problem is that the original construction isn't very well engineered. They use standard size of bar for the rudder post, and standard black iron pipe for the blade tube. There's quite a lot of clearance between the diameters, so there's more reliance on the pinch bolt than should be the case. Also the tube isn't very thick-walled, so the area of engagement with the through bolts is quite small and a little bit of vibration will soon open out the holes. Add to that the highly corrosive situation which the rudder is in, with aerated water and galvanic action from the prop, & it's not surprising that these often give trouble. A few owners seem to have no trouble at all, for no very obvious reason. Perhaps they never use their boats?

One mod which seems to help is shaping the end of the pinch bolt so that it enters a dimple drilled into the rudder post. As, supplied, they usually seem to just use a plain set bolt.

 

Tim

[Guest]

The problem is that the original construction isn't very well engineered. They use standard size of bar for the rudder post, and standard black iron pipe for the blade tube. There's quite a lot of clearance between the diameters, so there's more reliance on the pinch bolt than should be the case. Also the tube isn't very thick-walled, so the area of engagement with the through bolts is quite small and a little bit of vibration will soon open out the holes. Add to that the highly corrosive situation which the rudder is in, with aerated water and galvanic action from the prop, & it's not surprising that these often give trouble. A few owners seem to have no trouble at all, for no very obvious reason. Perhaps they never use their boats?

One mod which seems to help is shaping the end of the pinch bolt so that it enters a dimple drilled into the rudder post. As, supplied, they usually seem to just use a plain set bolt.

 

Tim

Thanks Tim, I will ty the shaped pinchbolt and dimple trick when I dry dock soon. I see what you mean about the iron pipe being sloppy fit on the post.

[stuart]

Wish I'd have done mine whilst it was in dry dock 2 weeks ago!

[blackrose]

The 'proper' tried & tested construction uses a large diameter rudder tube through the counter. With the top bearing removed, this allows the complete rudder to be lifted out of the cup on the skeg and dropped out beside the skeg.

 

But this also sounds like the rudder can't be removed with the boat in the water?

 

I think the LB system is supposed to allow rudder removal whilst still in the water by means of loosening the pinch bolts through the weedhatch. In practice, if you did manage to loosen the bolts, you'd probably end up dropping the rudder onto the bottom! My rudder and other LBs I've seen have no hole for roping it out.

Edited September 2, 2007 by blackrose

[DHutch]

But this also sounds like the rudder can't be removed with the boat in the water?

Well, as long as the water is deep enough to let it go down enough, it now more or less removable than the LB split set up really.

- However as you say, even the LB idea doesnt really make it a sensable thing to do?

- PLus, when was the last time you had a urge to remove you rudder, compaired to the number of times youve just wanted it to set there and work without any play in it!.

 

 

Daniel

[blackrose]

Well, as long as the water is deep enough to let it go down enough, it now more or less removable than the LB split set up really.

- However as you say, even the LB idea doesnt really make it a sensable thing to do?

- PLus, when was the last time you had a urge to remove you rudder, compaired to the number of times youve just wanted it to set there and work without any play in it!.

Daniel

 

How does the swan neck separate from the rudder stock?

Edited September 2, 2007 by blackrose

[SteveE]

How does the swan neck separate from the rudder stock?

 

 

.....and, if it can be separated, will this allow lubrication of the top bearing which, on our boat, has no obvious means of permitting this?

SteveE

[Timleech]

How does the swan neck separate from the rudder stock?

 

Traditionally, the Ram's Head (sic) is fitted on to a tapered square on the top of the rudder post, held with a bolt or nut. Some newer boats use a conical taper, that seems to work pretty well if properly made. Others have a parallel cylindrical fit with a key.

The tapered square is the best of the lot, but would originally have been forged. The other methods are easier to do by machine.

 

Tim

[blackrose]

.....and, if it can be separated, will this allow lubrication of the top bearing which, on our boat, has no obvious means of permitting this?

SteveE

 

No grease nipple on the side?

[David Schweizer]

Traditionally, the Ram's Head (sic) is fitted on to a tapered square on the top of the rudder post, held with a bolt or nut. Some newer boats use a conical taper, that seems to work pretty well if properly made. Others have a parallel cylindrical fit with a key.

The tapered square is the best of the lot, but would originally have been forged. The other methods are easier to do by machine.

 

Tim

 

Surely you mean the Swan's Neck, if refering to the tiller arm on a Motor. I have always understood that a Ram's head is the name given to the heavy wooden rudder stock on Horse/Butty Narrowboats.

[Timleech]

Surely you mean the Swan's Neck, if refering to the tiller arm on a Motor. I have always understood that a Ram's head is the name given to the heavy wooden rudder stock on Horse/Butty Narrowboats.

 

No, the name Ram's Head was carried over to motor boats.

Even though 'Swan's Neck' would be more descriptive.

 

Tim

Edited September 3, 2007 by Timleech

[Guest]

The Ram's Head is a pub. Everyone knows that.