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ivan&alice

Change gearbox oil on Newage PRM150 D2 gearbox

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On my last cruise I found that my bote started to engage gear very slowly - it would rev high without sending power to the prop and then gradually ease into gear.

 

I took a look at my gearbox for the first time since owning it (I know - please feel free to rebuke, I deserve it) and I downloaded the user manual from here https://www.prm-newage.com/p12-prm150

 

For context here is a pic of my Newage PRM150 D2 gearbox attached to my Beta 38 / BV1505 engine.

 

IMG_20190728_111942.jpg.12f2b104ddbc83afc892af26906cdbc6.jpg

 

The hose in the bottom centre of the pic I gather is the outlet for the oil cooler. There was a slight drip of oil from this hose that has been slowly filling up the bund under my engine with oil. I have tightened the nut as much as I could by hand with my junky shifting spanner (no idea what torque) ran the engine for 15 minutes and I can't see any more drip. I then took a look at the oil dipstick and the oil doesn't even touch the bottom of it.

 

I have had the boat for almost a year so I figure now is as good a time as any to change the gearbox oil rather than just top it up. I located the drain plug in its extremely awkward spot but I haven't been able to get it off with the aforementioned junky shifting spanner. My plan is to go and buy a spanner of the correct size and I'll hopefully be successful with that.

 

1) have I done any damage to the gearbox by running it without enough oil? It may have been this way for months. If so what should I do about it?

 

2) any hints for how to change the oil - is it just a case of undoing the drain plug, waiting for the oil to leak into the bund, then clean out the bund and replace the plug and oil? Should I run the engine with the plug out or try to switch gears to encourage the oil to vacate?

 

3) what oil should I put into the gearbox - and do I just pour it into the plug where the dipstick goes?

 

Thanks in advance for any advice!

 

 

 

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1. Probably not as long as its still driving but wear  of the clutches may have taken place.

 

2. Yes - do not run the engine with no oil in the box. Be aware that I was told that PRM say not to drain by usisng a pump through the filler. They say you canm't get the tube to the bottom of the box.

 

3. Engine oil - whatever you are using - say SAE 15W40 API CC to CF

 

4. It will probably be fine if you just top it up. Hydraulic boxes do slip as they run out of oil.

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Can't comment re damage.

 

To get the oil out of the gearbox I had RLWP make an adapter which goes into the bottom of the box where the sump drain plug is (See Tony's comment re draining the box) I got a suitable hose made up by Pitrek and fitted a brass pump.

 

https://www.pirtek.co.uk/

 

Depends upon the age of the box but there are two different types of sump plug.

DSCF3168.JPG

DSCF3172.JPG

Edited by Ray T
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Same gearbox: I get as much out as I can with a pella (suspect spelling) pump through the dipstick hole, then drop the last bit into a shallow tray via the drain plug (as has been stated, it is not possible to remove the entire contents with a pump from above.)
I find the dipstick very hard to read, even with paper against it so made a temporary wooden one to check the level whilst filling (painted matt black.) Serves me well.
I have been berated for saying this in the past, and likely will be again, but the instructions for my 150 box say to use engine oil, but mineral only and NOT SYNTHETIC . I emailed the makers about this and again they said to use mineral oil only, no synthetics.

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It is unlikely you have harmed the clutches in the gearbox, the lack of hydraulic pressure usually prevents their full engagement rather than just slipping under load.

 

May be completely wrong but are the drain plugs BSP threads? I think most have magnets in so you can clean off the swarf when you do an oil change. 

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Of the two plugs in the above photos neither had magnets.  They were purchased direct from the factory in Coventry. The gold coloured one looks like phosphor bronze.

I bought both as I was unable to ascertain which I had until the gear box taken out for an overhaul.

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Had no problem with the drain plug once I got a fixed spanner. The user guide says 15mm A/F (across flats) which meant that a 15mm spanner was a tad too tight to get it on and a 16mm a tad too loose - but did the job.

 

Unfortunately I finished up before the remark about not using synthetic oil. What is the reasoning for this? Should I drain it immediately or will it be OK until the next oil change?

 

Once drain was open I left it for an hour and rocked the boat to get as much oil out as possible. Bought "Mobil Super 1000 X1 15W/40 Fully Synthetic Oil" on special at Halfords for 17.5 GBP. Flushed it out with around 100mm of clean oil. Replaced the drain plug. Then added 1.5 litres fresh 15W/40 which filled it to the top of the second mark on the dipstick. Ran the engine and wiggled in an out of gear for 5 mins and checked again, level seemed much the same so I'm calling it good but will check again after my next long cruise tomorrow. Transitions gear beautifully and smoothly now and I'm probably imagining it but the engine even seems quieter than before.

 

Unfortunately I'm still seeing a drip of oil from the outlet pipe of the oil cooling system, despite well tightening the hose. I think it must be leaking from the hose itself or where it is crimped to the fitting. So I will have to replace this soon.

 

FWIW no magnets on any of my nuts.

 

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10 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

Had no problem with the drain plug once I got a fixed spanner. The user guide says 15mm A/F (across flats) which meant that a 15mm spanner was a tad too tight to get it on and a 16mm a tad too loose - but did the job.

 

Unfortunately I finished up before the remark about not using synthetic oil. What is the reasoning for this? Should I drain it immediately or will it be OK until the next oil change?

 

Once drain was open I left it for an hour and rocked the boat to get as much oil out as possible. Bought "Mobil Super 1000 X1 15W/40 Fully Synthetic Oil" on special at Halfords for 17.5 GBP. Flushed it out with around 100mm of clean oil. Replaced the drain plug. Then added 1.5 litres fresh 15W/40 which filled it to the top of the second mark on the dipstick. Ran the engine and wiggled in an out of gear for 5 mins and checked again, level seemed much the same so I'm calling it good but will check again after my next long cruise tomorrow. Transitions gear beautifully and smoothly now and I'm probably imagining it but the engine even seems quieter than before.

 

Unfortunately I'm still seeing a drip of oil from the outlet pipe of the oil cooling system, despite well tightening the hose. I think it must be leaking from the hose itself or where it is crimped to the fitting. So I will have to replace this soon.

 

FWIW no magnets on any of my nuts.

 

I am so glad you have no magnets on your nuts. Relieved to know this.?

  Would you deliberately ignore the makers instructions? Its a simple answer to your question. I would change it for peace of mind.?

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4 minutes ago, Boater Sam said:

Would you deliberately ignore the makers instructions?

No, but having done it accidentally I'd like to know whether the consequences would justify the effort to change it. Given that I don't have time to fix it today and we are cruising tomorrow I'd like to know how crucial it is before I make the decision.

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As it seems PRM just state not synthetic and do not provide reasons that seem well argued my guess is that is seem more like backside covering than anything else. They may not even know what happens if you do.  I'd lay odds nothing will happen. Happy to see well reasoned arguments and a bit of proof why this is incorrect. Agree change it just in case.

 

I bet that oil is something other than API CC to CF.

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Where exactly do PRM state not to use synthetic oil? I have been through the user manual and they only state to use API CD. Nowhere do they mention mineral vs synthetic. Besides, as I understand it synthetic is superior to mineral (and more expensive), at least for engine use.

 

The oil I used is API CF which according to oilspecifications.org may be used when the (obsolete) designation CD is recommended, that is, CF supersedes CD.

 

If it was really that important I think they would have mentioned it under "approved oils". My feeling is that if they do state it, the only reason would be that they used mineral when engineering and testing the gearbox.

 

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3 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

Where exactly do PRM state not to use synthetic oil? I have been through the user manual and they only state to use API CD. Nowhere do they mention mineral vs synthetic. Besides, as I understand it synthetic is superior to mineral (and more expensive), at least for engine use.

 

The oil I used is API CF which according to oilspecifications.org may be used when the (obsolete) designation CD is recommended, that is, CF supersedes CD.

 

If it was really that important I think they would have mentioned it under "approved oils". My feeling is that if they do state it, the only reason would be that they used mineral when engineering and testing the gearbox.

 

I agree with that until they come clean about it.

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1 minute ago, ivan&alice said:

Where exactly do PRM state not to use synthetic oil? I have been through the user manual and they only state to use API CD. Nowhere do they mention mineral vs synthetic. Besides, as I understand it synthetic is superior to mineral (and more expensive), at least for engine use.

 

The oil I used is API CF which according to oilspecifications.org may be used when the (obsolete) designation CD is recommended, that is, CF supersedes CD.

 

If it was really that important I think they would have mentioned it under "approved oils". My feeling is that if they do state it, the only reason would be that they used mineral when engineering and testing the gearbox.

 

The instructions that came with my 150 said no synthetic oils (about three years old now.)
I seem to recall there is something on their website saying no synthetic. Somebody linked it IIRC.
I had an email from PRM confirming no synthetic when I queried it (I too was surprised at this.)

 

I have no idea as to why synthetic would be unsuitable.

 

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Very soon PRM will be able to sell the non-synthetic oil in 1 litre bottles at a inflated price because all oils will be sold as synthetic or semi-synthetic.

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Found it. Second question:

https://www.prm-newage.com/help-centre-marine

 

Q: WHAT OIL DOES MY GEARBOX TAKE?

A: A mechanical gearbox (PRM 60, 80, 90, 120 or 125) must use automatic transmission fluid (ATF) Dextron II or III

Hydraulic gearboxes we recommend mineral 15W40 oil (not synthetic)


(My bold and underline.)

Edited by Guest

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22 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Very soon PRM will be able to sell the non-synthetic oil in 1 litre bottles at a inflated price because all oils will be sold as synthetic or semi-synthetic.

I suppose that is a possibility, but I think there will be mineral oil available elsewhere for a long time. I can still get Hypoy (spelling) 150 for my old Seagull gearbox without problems. OK Halfordsdon't stock it, but a local truck place had some. So many classic vehicles these days, many of which must still use mineral? The PRM gearbox doesn't hold as much or need as frequent change as the main engine, so even if comparatively expensive compared to synthetic/semisythetic from Tesco's, I don't think it will affect the national debt.
Another point is that they specify "no synthetic." Semi might be OK? Anybody asked? Edit: No forget that, it states "mineral."

All i can say is that I have a ford car with a Duratech engine. This engine requires a ford spec fully synth oil with a special number. Many oil companies sell a suitable oil of the correct spec. including Tesco/Asda/Halfords etc. (Surprisingly, Ford brand oil was amongst the cheapest recently, as were their filters!) That is what I have used for 13 years in this car. Why would I risk the Vauxhall or Fiat or VW spec oil in it? Why would I just put mineral in it? 

Edited by Guest

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Thanks for that. "Recommend" seems less strong than insisting that mineral must be used. And under "approved oils" it makes no mention of using synthetic voiding the warranty despite going into detail about various grades that are not acceptable, so I'm so far unconvinced that it is essential.

 

I emailed them to ask how important the recommendation is and what happens if I ignore it. I got an auto reply saying their offices are closed until 2019-08-05.

 

I'm going to leave the synthetic oil in there either until I'm advised otherwise by PRM or until the next oil change in a year or so's time. If nothing else I'm lazy and curious to see what happens. I'll report back if I have any issues.

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1 hour ago, ivan&alice said:

Thanks for that. "Recommend" seems less strong than insisting that mineral must be used. And under "approved oils" it makes no mention of using synthetic voiding the warranty despite going into detail about various grades that are not acceptable, so I'm so far unconvinced that it is essential.

 

I emailed them to ask how important the recommendation is and what happens if I ignore it. I got an auto reply saying their offices are closed until 2019-08-05.

 

I'm going to leave the synthetic oil in there either until I'm advised otherwise by PRM or until the next oil change in a year or so's time. If nothing else I'm lazy and curious to see what happens. I'll report back if I have any issues.

You must do as you think fit :) I am not qualified to say whether it will be suitable or not, hence I follow their recommendations! (same as I do with main boat engine, car engine and generator.) 
Will be interesting to see their reply though.

Edited by Guest

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8 hours ago, catweasel said:

All i can say is that I have a ford car with a Duratech engine. This engine requires a ford spec fully synth oil with a special number. Many oil companies sell a suitable oil of the correct spec. including Tesco/Asda/Halfords etc. (Surprisingly, Ford brand oil was amongst the cheapest recently, as were their filters!) That is what I have used for 13 years in this car. Why would I risk the Vauxhall or Fiat or VW spec oil in it? Why would I just put mineral in it? 

 I think that you will find most car manufacturers demand an oil complying with their own specification hence the proliferation of brand specific specs on oil cans. I asked Skoda technical what API number was the equivalent of their VW spec and they said  there was none so I asked them to be more specific but they declined to answer. I do not know but strongly suspect those Ford, GM & VW secs may involve a licensing fee and almost certainly extra money for the testing company or whatever.

 

When a company circumvents internationally recognised standards one has to wonder why, especially when they will not tell you.

Edited by Tony Brooks

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7 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 I think that you will find most car manufacturers demand an oil complying with their own specification hence the proliferation of brand specific specs on oil cans. I asked Skoda technical what API number was the equivalent of their VW spec and they said  there was none so I asked them to be more specific but they declined to answer. I do not know but strongly suspect those Ford, GM & VW secs may involve a licensing fee and almost certainly extra money for the testing company or whatever.

 

When a company circumvents internationally recognised standards one has to wonder why, especially when they will not tell you.

The cynic in me tends to agree. On my genny it says Hyundai recommend Morris lubricants. In the car manual it says "Ford recommend Castrol something or other." That is thinly veiled advertising which I ignore.
I think spec numbers are a bit different though, and it is a braver person than I who would risk using a different spec in a given engine (especially a Duratech!). I have mainly run the ford for 13 years on Asda "ford oil" fully synth (in red bottles.) Cheap as chips. The odd times they don't have it there is a Comma equivalent from a local truck place. Perhaps I could bung any 5W-30 synth in there but the cost is no different. Amazingly last time I checked, Fords own oil and filters were very competitively priced at our local Ford dealers! Also cheapest to re-gas the air con.

Edited by Guest

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I agree that when there is only as small or zero cost difference it makes little sense to "take a risk" as you say. But it gets me that companies think it is ethical to trap customers into only using stuff that is ostensibly made only to their special  specifications when, in reality there are perfectly adequate API and ACEA specs and if there are not they should lobby to get a new spec introduced that does meet their needs. Restrictive practice I call it and anticompetitive. Pity those who are supposed to stop this sort of thing seems incapable.

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20 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

I agree that when there is only as small or zero cost difference it makes little sense to "take a risk" as you say. But it gets me that companies think it is ethical to trap customers into only using stuff that is ostensibly made only to their special  specifications when, in reality there are perfectly adequate API and ACEA specs and if there are not they should lobby to get a new spec introduced that does meet their needs. Restrictive practice I call it and anticompetitive. Pity those who are supposed to stop this sort of thing seems incapable.

That's capitalism!

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17 hours ago, catweasel said:

I suppose that is a possibility, but I think there will be mineral oil available elsewhere for a long time. I can still get Hypoy (spelling) 150 for my old Seagull gearbox without problems. OK Halfordsdon't stock it, but a local truck place had some. So many classic vehicles these days, many of which must still use mineral? The PRM gearbox doesn't hold as much or need as frequent change as the main engine, so even if comparatively expensive compared to synthetic/semisythetic from Tesco's, I don't think it will affect the national debt.
Another point is that they specify "no synthetic." Semi might be OK? Anybody asked? Edit: No forget that, it states "mineral."

All i can say is that I have a ford car with a Duratech engine. This engine requires a ford spec fully synth oil with a special number. Many oil companies sell a suitable oil of the correct spec. including Tesco/Asda/Halfords etc. (Surprisingly, Ford brand oil was amongst the cheapest recently, as were their filters!) That is what I have used for 13 years in this car. Why would I risk the Vauxhall or Fiat or VW spec oil in it? Why would I just put mineral in it? 

Off topic but may be of interest to you- Halfords own oil is Silkolene who in turn supply all the oil thats put into the new (and dry) ford engines.

 

 

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23 minutes ago, PaulJ said:

Off topic but may be of interest to you- Halfords own oil is Silkolene who in turn supply all the oil thats put into the new (and dry) ford engines.

 

 

Didn't know that, cheers. I have used Halford's oil in the past and it seems as good as any other.  I do know that Asda engine oil was once Mobil, but not sure now. 

Edited by Guest

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