Boat builders breaking the law!

[Gary Peacock]

This came up at a meeting yesterday and shocked a few people even if it was already common knowledge.

 

It seems that it as been noticed that a number of boatbuilders specialising in the washer josher and tug market are building these boats and then sourcing historic engines to fit in them.

 

Now this is naghty because these engines do not meet the modern regulations and legally can't be fitted so these builders are now open for prosecution. Upto £5K and or 3 months imprisonment.

 

So it would seem the EU has stamped out another little sector of the boatbuilding world.

[saltysplash]

This came up at a meeting yesterday and shocked a few people even if it was already common knowledge.

 

It seems that it as been noticed that a number of boatbuilders specialising in the washer josher and tug market are building these boats and then sourcing historic engines to fit in them.

 

Now this is naghty because these engines do not meet the modern regulations and legally can't be fitted so these builders are now open for prosecution. Upto £5K and or 3 months imprisonment.

 

So it would seem the EU has stamped out another little sector of the boatbuilding world.

 

But will trading standards act on it?

 

It must be so frustrating gary, Could you in someway find a loop hole by stateing your boats are in fact rebuilds, ie using reclaimed steel from broken up shells so they're not new boats?

[Machpoint005]

Perhaps the way round it is to take an old boat with a historic engine and rebuild a hull around it? Then it wouldn't be a new boat, just a refurbishment. Of course, there would be very little of the original hull before you started...

 

Ian

 

Great minds thinking in concert, Salty

Edited August 17, 2007 by Machpoint005

[saltysplash]

Perhaps the way round it is to take an old boat with a historic engine and rebuild a hull around it? Then it wouldn't be a new boat, just a refurbishment. Of course, there would be very little of the original hull before you started...

 

Ian

 

Great minds thinking in concert, Salty

 

[Sir Nibble]

So how long, (especially since so many engines are based on vehicle units) before all new motors are common rail "fly by wire" units?

[Gary Peacock]

Perhaps the way round it is to take an old boat with a historic engine and rebuild a hull around it? Then it wouldn't be a new boat, just a refurbishment. Of course, there would be very little of the original hull before you started...

 

Ian

 

Great minds thinking in concert, Salty

 

To complicate matters further!

 

If you bought an ex BW working boat and converted it to recreational use the transition from commercial to recreational would them mean the full craft would fall under the RCD too!

 

You can fit an historic engine in a replica but the definition of replica seems to be exactly that. I.e. A museum type replica not a looks a bit like one with a live aboard fit out.

[Alec Gatherer]

And to comlicate matters even further: the engine doesn't have to be historic to fall foul of the regs, just non-compliant.

For instance, I hurried through my grand plan Life of Riley project to beat the implementation of this directive, purely because I wanted a good ol' SR3 as power unit. Reasons? Reliability, legendary fuel economy, simplicity, ease of maintenace & rebuild, and I already had one!

No-one would claim an SR3 to be historic (hysteric would be nearer!) but it doesn't comply, so forget about putting one in a new hull now.

[saltysplash]

To complicate matters further!

 

If you bought an ex BW working boat and converted it to recreational use the transition from commercial to recreational would them mean the full craft would fall under the RCD too!

 

You can fit an historic engine in a replica but the definition of replica seems to be exactly that. I.e. A museum type replica not a looks a bit like one with a live aboard fit out.

 

So you would have to fit all new boats with a new, compliant engine and then in the small print state this would be exchanged for your choice of vintage, economic, lovely sounding engine after 12 mths. with all the added fuss and cost. Its pants! I dont envy you the job gaz, but i do envy your results

[Hairy-Neil]

Does it apply to all new boats across the board or just to complete boats?

 

The kit car industry get round a lot of these sort of regulations by selling incomplete vehicles, the new owner perhaps fitting his own steering wheel......

[Gary Peacock]

Does it apply to all new boats across the board or just to complete boats?

 

The kit car industry get round a lot of these sort of regulations by selling incomplete vehicles, the new owner perhaps fitting his own steering wheel......

 

It applies to any boat entering the market complete or not complete, however if the builder did not fit the engine he would be in the clear but the problem would be passed to the next person in the chain be that the customer or boat fitter.

 

Unfortunately you can not escape the RCD with the exception of using the five year rule and even that can get messy.

[Benjo]

It applies to any boat entering the market complete or not complete, however if the builder did not fit the engine he would be in the clear but the problem would be passed to the next person in the chain be that the customer or boat fitter.

 

Unfortunately you can not escape the RCD with the exception of using the five year rule and even that can get messy.

 

 

Does the Replica Boats not come under this Gary? as per the summarty at the folowing location

The http://www.conformance.co.uk/directives/ce_boats.php or is the new emmision directives on engines that is the problem?

[Gary Peacock]

Does the Replica Boats not come under this Gary? as per the summarty at the folowing location

The http://www.conformance.co.uk/directives/ce_boats.php or is the new emmision directives on engines that is the problem?

 

The new emissions directive gave the RCD more "teeth" in this area of engines and the problem is probably not only confined to the UK and the inland waterways. The practise of exploiting the replica boat to side step the RCD totally is what's probably being noticed too Europe wide making the authorities aware of a potential loop hole to be plugged.

[HYBRID]

Is it possible for hire companies to side step the RCD if they self build the boat and keep it in use for five years?

[Gary Peacock]

Is it possible for hire companies to side step the RCD if they self build the boat and keep it in use for five years?

 

Perfectly but they have quite a few more stringent requirements already because of the involvement of the public.

[Benjo]

The new emissions directive gave the RCD more "teeth" in this area of engines and the problem is probably not only confined to the UK and the inland waterways. The practise of exploiting the replica boat to side step the RCD totally is what's probably being noticed too Europe wide making the authorities aware of a potential loop hole to be plugged.

 

Currently Commercial vehicle engines have to complky with Euro4 and Euro5 in the near future. Do you know wether the catagory of marine engine comes under the Euro 4/5 rulings.

[Gary Peacock]

Currently Commercial vehicle engines have to complky with Euro4 and Euro5 in the near future. Do you know wether the catagory of marine engine comes under the Euro 4/5 rulings.

 

Sorry don't know that one without doing some digging, but but basically the engine manufacturers like boat builder have to provide a declaration of conformity to the relevant regulations and that is the boat builders get out of jail card obviously an historic engine does not have that.

[GUMPY]

This came up at a meeting yesterday and shocked a few people even if it was already common knowledge.

 

It seems that it as been noticed that a number of boatbuilders specialising in the washer josher and tug market are building these boats and then sourcing historic engines to fit in them.

 

Now this is naghty because these engines do not meet the modern regulations and legally can't be fitted so these builders are now open for prosecution. Upto £5K and or 3 months imprisonment.

 

So it would seem the EU has stamped out another little sector of the boatbuilding world.

 

As I understand it this is not a problem

Mike Clarke negotiated an opt out provided that the engine existed before 2005 then it could be used in a new boat.

 

Details from Mikes website here:

http://users.skynet.be/sky34301/cert.html

Scroll down to engine exhaust emmission old engine.

 

There are some very useful pages detailing EU regs on mikes site:

http://users.skynet.be/sky34301/legislation.html

Click on the tabs on the bottom of the page

 

Mike was very involved in all the negotiations re the RCD when it first came up

 

The real worry is the TRIWV regs

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUri...06L0087:EN:HTML

that coud apply to ALL boats over 20m unless the MCA get their act sorted to secure an opt out for the UK waters.

 

 

Julian

[Dr Bradley]

That would make 60ft and under more popular.

[Gary Peacock]

As I understand it this is not a problem

Mike Clarke negotiated an opt out provided that the engine existed before 2005 then it could be used in a new boat.

 

Details from Mikes website here:

http://users.skynet.be/sky34301/cert.html

Scroll down to engine exhaust emmission old engine.

 

There are some very useful pages detailing EU regs on mikes site:

http://users.skynet.be/sky34301/legislation.html

Click on the tabs on the bottom of the page

 

Mike was very involved in all the negotiations re the RCD when it first came up

 

The real worry is the TRIWV regs

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUri...06L0087:EN:HTML

that coud apply to ALL boats over 20m unless the MCA get their act sorted to secure an opt out for the UK waters.

Julian

 

Looks a bit of a work around but if it works then that's the way to do it then!

[Ewart Hodgson]

Surely you could build a REPLICA CONVERTED NARROWBOAT.

 

I have a (real) converted narrowboat (the usual full-cabin job; only canal enthusiasts would realize that she has a working history) yet the boat - in its converted state - is on the UK Register of Historic Ships. I would have thought that making a replica of The Saucy Mrs Flobster would therefore be allowed to fit an historic engine (hers is more hysterical than historical, but that is just the way things turned out).

 

I hope, though, that UK trading standards have the sense just to turn a blind eye. Every time I am in Brussels, I am both amazed and amused by how many EU regulations of all sorts are flouted quite openly. With children's toys being full of lead paint etc, surely trading standards folk have better things to do.

[Benjo]

As I understand it this is not a problem

Mike Clarke negotiated an opt out provided that the engine existed before 2005 then it could be used in a new boat.

 

Details from Mikes website here:

http://users.skynet.be/sky34301/cert.html

Scroll down to engine exhaust emmission old engine.

 

There are some very useful pages detailing EU regs on mikes site:

http://users.skynet.be/sky34301/legislation.html

Click on the tabs on the bottom of the page

 

Mike was very involved in all the negotiations re the RCD when it first came up

 

The real worry is the TRIWV regs

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUri...06L0087:EN:HTML

that coud apply to ALL boats over 20m unless the MCA get their act sorted to secure an opt out for the UK waters.

Julian

 

Great Info Idleness have read it all. Having a new boat built at this time I will ensure I am future proof by giving a copy to the builder. I think his name is ASIF because that what he keeps saying to me each time I ask for extras.

 

From the reading it looks like there is a new industry available for builder to move into the Boat Inspection Certificate business. With the drink driving regs coming Im wondering if I should put wheels on this narrowbaot as it will be street legal soon.

[Phil Speight]

This came up at a meeting yesterday and shocked a few people even if it was already common knowledge.

 

It seems that it as been noticed that a number of boatbuilders specialising in the washer josher and tug market are building these boats and then sourcing historic engines to fit in them.

 

Now this is naghty because these engines do not meet the modern regulations and legally can't be fitted so these builders are now open for prosecution. Upto £5K and or 3 months imprisonment.

 

So it would seem the EU has stamped out another little sector of the boatbuilding world.

What is the situation if a boatbuilder allows his customer to supply and fit ( or cause to be fitted ) his own engine?

Cheers

Phil

[Gary Peacock]

The RCD is funny creature with good bits and bad bits, I wasn't at the meeting yesterday because it was basically an introduction to it type seminar but the one thing that came out of it from our staff that attended that must frustrate those from the BMF etc running it was that most builders present seemed to be more interested in trying to find ways to get around the requirements rather than how to work towards achieving at least a good degree of compliance.Surely trying and maybe "adjusting" the interpretation where it is ridiculous to comply is a far better approach. There is scope to get the ridiculous bits exempted but this would be simpler if builders took a more professional attitude to the whole process.The BMF offered free assistance to their membership to have RCD compliance verified by their technical department less than 15 actually took part! Of those that did more than 75% were identified as requiring modification or enhancement.Now if that's how those with the BMF's support behave how do the rest cope?

What is the situation if a boatbuilder allows his customer to supply and fit ( or cause to be fitted ) his own engine?CheersPhil

Well you could issue a annex IIIa declaration of conformity for a part completed boat and that would clear the builder but the boat would still need to achieve conformity by the person who completed it maybe by the method suggested in the link above.All good fun isn't it.

[Jason Wilson and Family]

It's a bit disturbing what we will do to our history to comply with something that meaningless. There should be a waiver for historic engines, afterall the number of modern engines will far outweigh the number of historic engines as a matter of sourcing and cost.

[John Orentas]

When the rules and guidelines were formulated for the use of vintage engines I believe there was a genuine intention to allow a great deal of flexibility and latitude for the building of such craft for those that like them. I like to think that I could be allowed one day to install a vintage engine in my boat, to that end I allowed for a very large engine room. It isn't going to happen now but I see no reason to prevent anyone else doing it.

 

Why some of us wish to 'Blow the whistle' on the builders that attempt to carry on this bit of a tradition I don't know, it is not as though they are in any way competing commercially with anyone on the forum. As with many of these things it is well known that if we make enough fuss and make enough noise it is possible that we could contribute to closing down these 'criminal builders', not sure I want to be a part of it though.

Edited August 17, 2007 by John Orentas