Rob@BSSOffice

Ah yes sorry, please excuse the error. Tony B posted something similar earlier and I also read that as meaning a lower standard. I conflated the two points. Apologies. And yes agreed, regarding risk picture. The BSS has a database of incidents. We don't tag boats as liveaboards, we have a category called Intensive use. We had to pick a reasonable figure out and we say that ny boat used for 3 months or more in a continuous way is something we would class as 'intensively used' - lots of fuel and lots of power consumption with appliances and engines in more use.

It is not a lower standard, it is the same standard. The issue in the OP relates only to, what is to us, a rather frustrating aspect of the law. For the purpose of ascertaining whether a gas system leaks or not i.e. tightness testing, BSS examiners are trained and assessed in the same way, and for many, at the same college gas centre, as Gas Safe registered technicians. Examiners are subject to constant quality control monitoring processes including field assessments and quinquennial re-assessment. Unless they are gas fitters what they do not do and are not trained in is the building and design of LPG systems for boats. This means that the very expensive process to get training, experience, assessment, and re-assessement to meet the competency criteria for Gas Safe registration and paying registration fees, thus becoming a 'Recognised' person is not worthwhile for many examiners. (A huge respect is deserved for all those people that do) Currently there is no limited scope registration criteria i.e. registration/recognition for the undertaking of gas tightness-tests only. And that is why we direct the examiners in the way that we do and state the things that we state on the website as quoted above. But whether you use the boat for high-days and holidays, live aboard it, rent it out or have passengers aboard in a commercial or quasi commercial way - the BSS tightness test is the same - no different standard. No regulator - the pressure would be different

A point in general pertaining to the phrase above and not specific to anyone on this forum The critical issue is that if challenged in court, would a jury, after weighing up any evidence presented conclude that the boat was or was not used primarily as a place of residence and that, it was or was not, a reasonable judgement expected to be made by the examiner. Anybody assisting him or creating evidence to support or lead the other person breaking the law could also face an interview under caution and potential prosecution as an accessory. We always say to examiners to consider the 12 people sitting on the Clapham omnibus who will be judging the circumstances, especially if the boat blows up after the examination and fairly heavy book starts flying in your direction. It's not just the 3 months in jail andor/ £5k fine per offence, its the after affects on employment, insurance cover, credit rating etc that will extend the misery. Some examinations are not worth it. The Gas Safe Register and HSE are very proactive in pursuing illegal activities. The BSS certification is not affected and it can run its course to the stated expiry date if the boat is owner occupied i.e. private. But if the boat is to be let, a non-private BSS certificate will likely be needed to support the registration/licence application.

... dry wood http://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/stay-safe/solid-fuel-stoves/wood-fuel-wisdom/ Sorry to fred-drift, but being only very slightly OT and with Biblical volumes of rain on the way again I thought it's worth saying - cover up your wood stocks. The vicious spiralDamp wood fuel will cause the stove to run at a lower temperature as the heat of the fire will be producing steam and so the stove needs much more fuel to keep the boat warm. Secondly the steam dissolves-out flammable, acidic tars which will cling to and block up, as well as inevitably damage, the stove and its chimney. As well as the early and costly damage to the stove installation brings with it an increased risk as combustion gases are likely to leak into the cabin space The situation will be made worse still because of incomplete combustion as the fuel is damp, those gases are more likely to contain carbon monoxide (CO) – giving the cycle that could see a highly toxic atmosphere build up in the boat. And although the downsides of using insufficiently dry wood, such as, providing additional fuel to stay warm, spending money on the early replacement of the stove and flue pipes and running the risk of carbon monoxide poisoning, are bad enough; you need to be aware that stove flues lined with tar could also lead to a chimney fire....

All the contact numbers here http://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/boat-examination/arranging-the-examination/find-an-examiner/?counties=Essex Loads of BSS examination preparation tips here http://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/boat-examination/arranging-the-examination/

Strictly marine LPG competency Was it Matt Miller at uxbridge Name: Matt Miller Address: Miller Marine Uxbridge Boat Centre Waterloo Road Uxbridge UB8 2QX Landline: 07724983966 Mobile: 07724983966 Email: millermarine1@yahoo.com Gas safe register: Number: 119747 If not try talking to Roger Alsop of this parish Name: Roger Alsop Address: 10 Marlins Turn Gadebridge Hemel Hempstead HP1 3LQ Landline: 01442-219115 Mobile: 07956656063 Email: comet@nildram.co.uk Gas safe register: Number: 177148 or Derek Barnett Name: Derek Barnett Address: 15 Hilmay Drive Hemel Hempstead HP1 1TZ Landline: 07973258563 Email: boatexaminations@gmail.com Website: www.boatexaminations.com Gas safe register: Number: 205416

Hello Alan I think it would be helpful to have by PM, that information you offered please. Could it include the list of six issues you refer to, thanks. In regards the expiry date; I'd need to double check with my colleagues that the Delta statement isn't referencing a warranty or similar and does relate to 'unit replacement'. We usually email the Belgium office for confirmation so it can take time, but we may have the answer on file already. For several intractable practical and legal reasons, we cannot introduce secret shopping, but we do react to complaints where names are provided. We have a field assessment programme. We have regular update and improvement workshops. We have additional formal periodic re-assessment programmes (like Gas Safe). Regarding items that do not pass the advice checks - if an examiner refuses to issue a certificate in these circumstances, please ask for a failure report and then with that in your possession, contact the BSS Manager, or any other members of the team including me, and explain that you are being refused a certification on the basis of meeting the BSS requirements but not passing advice checks. HTH Rob

They are in the UK - class C extinguishers only and effective on electrical equipment. However they flood an environment with the carbon dioxide thus starving the fire of oxygen. In a cabin space, starving an environment of oxygen presents it's own dangers for anyone in there. For our purposes, they are not recognised.

BSS does not accredit anything. We will recognise any extinguisher achieving attestation and carrying recognised test body certification (min 5A 34B). It is down to the manufacturer to put any of their products through an appropriate accreditation process to meet attestation.

Based on your statement - and all other conditions being met - no. But like me at home where one is over 5 years old, I am thinking about an addition or replacement for my own assurance.

string things, but enough of that.

I've posted a response in a new 'Equipment' thread here http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=82001 Did anyone go? Was it helpful/interesting? More locations have been announced for on consecutive Mondays, including at the Cross Guns and at The Barge, Seend Cleeve. Confirmation of these dates and venues will be given nearer the time. (source: Clara on the K&A FB page)

transported from another thread in general boating I have attached a pdf (161kb) all the checks that apply to fire extinguishers including those related to the gauge and to any expiry/replace by dates (Not warranty or guarantee dates). By assessing the extinguisher as found on the boat, it should be possible to decide whether an extinguisher and/or the compliment of extinguishers meet the compliance options. These are the key themes individual fire fighting capacity total fire fighting capacity certification/attestation mark condition of casing and trigger gauge indication weight indication position/ability to deploy location visibility HTH Apologies to Big Col for the lack of response earlier, I'll look into that and let you know. Regards Rob ECP-private-boats-Ed3_Rev_PART-6_Apr2015_PUBLIC_FINAL.pdf

On that basis, I have given you a vote. And you too bassplayer (we bass players have to stick together)

Two points.... If you are in the Gt Bedwyn area, don't forget the meeting tomorrow. A second date has been posted on the K&A FB group Wiltshire Fire Service will be hosting 2 presentations on boat fire safety. The first is on Monday (18th Jan) at The Cross Keys at Great Bedwyn at 1930hrs. The second will be on the 25th Jan at the Black Horse, Devizes at 1930hrs. All are welcome and we will be handing out smoke alarms and Carbon Monoxide detectors to boat owners. So if you're near Devizes, Monday 25th is the date for the diary

For anyone with hearing difficulties, please for your own sakes investigate specialist alarms. The local fire service can advise e.g. http://www.cheshirefire.gov.uk/public-safety/campaigns/awareness-campaigns/deaf-awareness-week/smoke-alarms-for-deaf-and-hard-of-hearing-people A few years ago Northants Fire Service fitted a specialist alarm for a deaf boater and week later it saved them from falling ill or worse when it activated. Investigations revealed a fault in the solid fuel stove chimney. Job done. One very grateful boater. Everyone can be protected.

Not least because of recent sad incidents, I want to give this Wiltshire Fire & Rescue Service event some publicity - check out their twitter feed. Boat Safety presentation 7:30pm18th Jan Cross Keys Great Bedwyn .If you own a canal boat come along collect free smoke-carbon monoxide alarm There's a 30 minute chat, then they will be handing out free smoke alarms and carbon monoxide detectors to boat owners. Tell your mates, alert them on Snap Chat, Facebook, text them, call them, knock on their boat, by any means get them there. By my reckoning, I think from memory (caveat) its been 6 boaters died in 5 boat fires between Newbury and Bristol since 2003 ................... And if you're not from that area, call your local fire service and ask for a boat fire risk/safety check. Please spread the word Thanks

It's not the CO that is different from houses. It is the environment - on a boat its more humid, with wider temperature fluctuations, different chemicals and salinity in the air, vibrations (engine) and jolts (other boats hitting yours). So the products on here http://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/media/264586/CoGDEM-CO-alarms-List-Feb-2015.pdf have been through the rigours of BSi/LPCB approved batch testing and approvals to standards that take account of the marine environment. HOWEVER if someone has an alarm, but not " -2" don't panic.... if anyone already has an 'in date' Kitemarked alarm and it was tested to BS EN 50291, or BS EN 50291-1, the CoGDEM advice is to keep that alarm, test it routinely and when it needs replacing, choose a unit showing it was tested to BS EN 50291-2 and suitable for boat use. Hope that helps

Also consider your risks see http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=81608&page=3#entry1732523 post #52 in addition to the annual gas check, the additional BSS requirements, the specific insurance, the facilities audit, the handover procedures audit, the moorings and the boat registration/licence. All do-able, but needs a proper business plan to take account of the costs. For example what did it cost the the hire companies involved in the three incident examples in that post - insurance excess, towing/recovery fees, cancellation refunds, replacing craft, staff call-out wages, other incidental charges. In one incident last year a hire boat got stuck under a rail bridge and that caused the trains to stop running - could the train and track operators make a charge for the loss of service? Hiring a boat is far from a lightweight decision.

Would these be examples of the point you raise http://www.greatyarmouthmercury.co.uk/news/man_in_his_70s_is_injured_following_cruiser_accident_on_the_river_bure_1_4224314 or this one http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-norfolk-33480882 or this one http://www.edp24.co.uk/news/broads_boat_gets_stuck_under_great_yarmouth_bridge_at_high_tide_1_3990738 Three of over thirty hired craft incidents we recorded in 2015. Making your boat available to others should be carefully considered. There is a whole load of responsibility in law resting on anyone letting their boat for hire or reward.

I think the point is that a coffin lid is tougher to break through. Having advised one boat 'renting' couple last year who were potentially hours from death on a boat informally rented missing all the red tape items like a like a safe gas system, exhaust pipe and solid fuel stove - and only costing a £1k a month, I'd hate to hear of another inexperienced boater suffering like they did. Please progress if you must with eyes wide open. Ask for certification, check the landlords insurance policy, have an experience boater check out the craft, test the smoke and CO alarms - ensure it is above board. The required annual gas safety check and documentation applies to inland boats like land based dwellings. But so true, tenure and financial risk is the other underbelly weakness.

The regulations are already in place. It is the enforcement that next needs to be in play. But until the incident is reported to the navigation authority, which may or may not be Canal & River Trust, in many ways it remains unaccounted for and, for all intents and purposes, it will 'not have happened', so to speak. Please ask your friend to follow the advice here https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/media/library/1180

The test button also test that the sensors are operating as well as that the batteries are providing power.

OK - I'll do my best. Please keep in mind that I was not privy to the discussion at the British Standards Institution working group which consisted of narrowboat builders, marine surveyors and solid fuel industry representatives so this is paraphrased. Firstly stoves don't 'have to have' twin walls per se, but that may have just been a turn of phrase to highlight why you don't understand the move to twin walled flues for the upper section. Fair enough if it is a phrase coined. The development of code came about because of the deaths and incidents arising from the use of solid fuel stoves on boats and so the BSi (not BSS) created a working group. Solid fuel stoves are designed to work in building with chimneys expected to be at least 3-4m in which will provide a good draw of hot combustion gas that can expel a good proportion of the spent products of the system and into the air above the building. Very few boat arrangements can replicate that length of flue-pipe construction so the consistent and efficient draw would have to be maintained in another way - maintaining the heat the chimney. This means the flue continues to operate without too much tarring, the combustion process works more evenly and at a higher temperatures and is more controllable and that means for each kg of fuel put into the stove more heat is obtained in the stove itself. This controllable burn means that the risk of over-firing and chimney fires is reduced. It also means the combustion is more efficient and therefore reducing the amount of CO and the risk of poisoning. it can also help reduce risk of back-draughts. The twin wall near the 'ceiling' also helps reduce the possibility of pyrolisis and fire in the lining out. There is also the other safety gain in the way of a by-product which is for that section of flue which is twin walled, if anyone can reach/touch it, there is a reduced risk of a serious burn. So that is a fairly rough overview of why twin walled insulated chimneys are promoted by the British Standard Code of Practice BS8511:2010 as defined below "8.3.1 Chimney connection to appliance Whenever possible the chimney should be connected directly to the flue outlet of the appliance using an appropriate adaptor, in order to maximize the flue draught and hence reduce the risk of fume emissions into the cabin. NOTE This will also reduce the fire risk in the cabin because of the lower external temperature and help reduce the risk of burns on possible human contact with any connecting flue pipe. Where a short length of uninsulated connecting flue pipe is used to connect the appliance to the chimney, 8.3.2 should be followed. 8.3.2 Use of connecting flue pipe A connecting flue pipe should be used only to connect the appliance to the chimney and should not pass through any deckhead (roof), headlining (ceiling), bulkhead (wall) or partition into another part of the craft, or to the outside.... [then follows a description of the various proprietary materials of connecting flue pipes] ...The connecting flue pipe should be as short as practicable and should preferably be less than 1 m. The connecting flue pipe should connect to the chimney system either: at a level below the cabin headlining in accordance with the manufacturer’s instructions where tested to BS EN 1856-2; or at least 150 mm vertically below any combustible cabin headlining." So I hope that helps bring a little light on the subject and a bit of heat to the cabin.

See post #92 thread http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=80784&page=5