dave moore

Hi Broadly, I agree with earlier comments. Decent bows with double curvature require a hell of a lot of work as opposed to simply pulling the bow sheets to a point and adding stem post capping. Similarly, many of the so called "Josher bows" claimed by various builders are a pastiche rather than the real thing. The handful of builders who get close spend much time pulling, tweaking and carefully welding will spend weeks, not days, producing a fine stem. I've watched two men spend most of a morning setting a pre bent stem bar in place and starting to attach bow plates. The care ansd precision is almost frightening but the end result is superb! I suppose it's all a matter of priorities and certainly the end product is more expensive, but the shell is one of the fixed issues that can't be readily altered, unlike a fit out or paint scheme. Certainly the end product in some cases is worth the extra cash IMHO...have a look at my boat Resolute on page 9 of "Show off your Craft" to see what I mean. I think I know who the pinched nosed builder is...certainly well known! Sadly, there are many who think the output authentic "Josher". A pity, because earlier work was much more sweetly proportioned and subtle. Cheers Dave

Hi all I was going to add a reply earlier but work got in the way. I can heartily endorse Sarah's point about the usefulness of a tug deck when working, epecially single handed, which I often do. It's great to be able to step across the deck to access the other side of the lock. It's also a super place to socialise in fine weather, or to stand while using a shaft if necessary. Under the deck is a double bed, side wardrobes and masses of storage area around and above the water tank. Please bear in mind that I'm a long time boater with a very traditional bent toward how things were rather than how they are now, but I also agree that many tugs have finer lines and are better proportioned than others IMHO. See my post of Resolute in "show off your craft" to see what I mean. Cheers Dave

Hi I'd endorse the earlier comments about clogged flues. I've burnt both coal and smokeless on the range in the back cabin on my boat and found that the flues require much more attention than when burning smokeless stuff, tho' the smell of real coal takes me back to the 60s and working boats. If I'm feeling nostalgic, I'll throw a bag of real on board. A couple of w/ends ago I followed Roach and Starling from Weston to Stone. They had winter coal on board. Homefire, my favourite smokeless on the open fire at home, was selling for £8.40 a bag, but it burns well for a very long time. Depends how often you want to get the flue brush out! Dave

Hi Lee If you've got enough visible thread with the first nut on, you could add a locknut. It;s the fevoured way at Norton Canes Boatbuilders, who built my boat. The problem with drilling is that the shaft is weakened by it and it's almost impossible to realign, as somone else has said. It's also fairly straightforward to remove the prop with the boat in the water, should it be necessary. Hope this helps Dave

Hi all No new info, just confirmations...... The place at Weston is Malcolm's, he's had it for many years and Toucan's stern end is on the northern side of his place. He's currently restoring a spoon dredger which will be on loan to the Black Country Museum when the work is completed. Graham Edgson at Norton Canes has just fabricated a new spoon and Joe Hollingshead is also helping out. Roger Wickson is still boating, now on a "new" boat built at Market Drayton. I lettered it for him last year. It's a handsome craft called "Little Bear". He and I sit on the Waterways Craft Guild commmittee and are suitably grumpy old sods! Dave

Sorry...it wasn't my intention tp pun (unusually!). My expert indentified the grain in the metal as characteristic of a forged, as opposed to cast, windlass.

Hi Bridgit Tony's work is inspirational and well worth repeated watching. It should be compulsory viewing for the many painters who offer the awful diet of nondescript souvenir work which bedevil many festivals and museum shops. Thanks for the post! Dave

Hi Windlass Watchers! A tad more information, if you're interested. Speaking to other greybeards at the funeral of another boater earlier this week, I brought up the windlass question. They knew of Neal windlasses and suggested that I contact another long time boater, again and aquaintance from the 60s who has extensive knowledge of these things. He confirmed provenance of the Neal and also the Cooke -a apparently forgeries aren't unknown - and told me that Harry Neal was a toll collector around the Stewart Aqueduct, which carries the old main line over the new close to Spon Lane. As well as this, he also made windlasses for boaters. I'll try and find out more soon Cheers Dave

Hi all The brass chimney chain referred to by Max Sinclair wasn't composed of belt buckles, rather WW2 gas mask bag clips. Some of the bags had a canvas neck strap which was attached to the circular rings on the bag by 2 brass clips. During ww2, there was substantial coal traffic (and before and after) to the paper mills at Croxley Green in Herts. Some old bags were recycled a the mills into paper. The brass clips were removed, I'm told, and added to the scrap metal pile. Boatmen delivering cargoes of coal took advantage to use these handsome clips (about 8 clips made a chimney safety chain) to make a functional and decorative chain for the chimbley. Lots of restored boats have them but they are hard to obtain at sensible prices these days. As a kid in the 50s, I could have bought loads from my local army and navy surplus store...if only I'd known! Cheers Dave Moore

Hi all I've followed this thread with interest and I'm a little wary of putting my head above the parapet, but I broadly agree with the comment, especially about unimaginative paint schemes. I speak as a long time boater and unashamed traditionalist who has a lifelong fascination with working craft, their paintwork and working techniques. So many craft seem unremarkable, both in proportion, balance and style. They seem to be floating cottages rather than boats, having little in common to their earlier ancestors. In the 60s there was an eclectic mix of cruisers, converted pontoons, ex working boats of all shapes and sizes. IMHO part of the shell issue is that most new shells are fabricator, not boatbuilder built. There are many subtle differences that I won't go into here. Internally, many modern boats are light years apart from those I started boating on. They are incredibly sophisticated and complex, tho' I sometimes wonder why all the gear is neccessary for the small amount of cruisisng that so many seem to do. Earlier this year I went to letter one such and was shown over the near complete boat... a msterpiece of joinery and a tribute to the builders. I couldn't, however, equate the hardwood flooring and marble steps in the galley with the muddy gritty towpaths that I associate with boating. Another earlier commission was beautifully fitted on a mediocre shell with just one colour....green....alll over! Canal boats cry out for colour! I could go on and on....drooping fenders, ropes in Flemish coils, stern lines over tiller pins, ...but I'll leave it here while I still have some customers...and no, I won't paint a wineglass clutching frog dancing down your cabin side! Cheers Grumpy Dave

Hi John Alan did indeed go on to Brummagem Boats, along with Julian and Barry Stanton. Their father had Kubina (ex Claytons gas boat) in thebasin then and Barry also bought Pearl from Claytons when they finished in 66. Barry still boats, Julian is around but not boating and I've no idea where Alan Green is these days.

Hi John In the 70s there was a hire boat operation run by Alan Green which I think was called Planet Cruisers, from I think, somewhere down Farmers Bridge or between the bottom and top of Aston (or were theydown Aston? Can't remember) A friend hired from them and I went to help. I don't recall BMCCC running a hire boat from Gas St, tho Anson was converted to a party boat early on. Liz do let us have pictures ASAP....it was my understanding that the Stratford was under restoration in 62, so can't see how it could have been passable from Lapworth. Is that your Glenfield at Salt on the T&M? Passed it earlier today, I remember Albert Brookes having it in the 60s. Let us know more Dave

Hi Liz I was around Gas St in the mid 60's. The only hire boat I recall was "Lady Helen", operated by an acquaintance called Dick Lewin, tho I wouldn't have thought he was there in 62. Are you sure your folks went to Stratford? The southern Stratford wasn't reopened until 1964 (Iwas there), perhaps they went to Lapworth and picked up the Grand Union to Warwick? Can any other greybeards add to this? Hire craft from Gas St in the early 60s? Perhaps it was an enterprising private boater?.... Cheers Dave Moore

Hi all Predjudiced, I know....been around canal boats since the early 60's, work in the business (not as a builder) and I'd have to say that Norton Canes, mentioned earlier, are my preferred choice for authentic traditional work, if that's what you're looking for. Have a look at Resolute on the "Show off your boat" to see what I mean...some time ago, another NC customer remarked to me " Dave, you could take all of the quality (narrowboat) builders and put them in the back of a taxi!", a sentiment that I largely agree with. Few modern shell builders produce fine looking shells in trad lines. All of the quality builders I know are busy. Who would you put in the taxi with Norton Canes? Cheers Dave

Thanks Magnetman. I haven't unearthed my copy for a while

Hi all Back again. I totally agree about the uselessness of the Flemish coil (or "flaked" rope as I call it) as a means of accessing a quickly needed line. There's another practical reason not to do it too...in wet weather you end up with a permanently damp patch under the coil which will eventually help to cause failure of the roof paint, most of which aren't designed to be constantly wet. Another rankling modern habit (sorry) is attaching a decorated bell rope to the shank of the tiller pin. As I understand it, the purpose of the pin was to enable the tiller's quick removal if necessary. For anyone interested, Sonia Rolt's excellent book " A Canal People" of Robert Longden's photographs of working boats around Suttons in the late 40s and early 50s provides much detail about what went where in working boat days, if anyone's interested, likewise Michael Ware's "Narrowboats at Work" There has always been a rightness about traditional placement and practice. A final snippet for now. Acouple of years ago I was approaching Barton Turn lock, working uphill. I couldn't see anyone in the lock so intended to put the bows in the lock's mouth while I prepared. There was a boat in there and an elderly lady appeared, flustered that they wouldn't be able to get out. "No problem "says I "I'll pull back" (must have been 20 yards from the lock anyway) "You must like reversing" she replied and continued to mutter. Obviously I should have tied up way back! and walked ahead......how times change! Cheers Dave

Hi You are opening a big fat hairy can of worms with this post! Let me say from the outset that I agree entirely with you on this and it's one of my constant sources of irritation when on the move. Ypu are right to point out that old time boaters were the source of best practice. They had generations to perfect efficient ways of doing things that saved effort, and time. The problem is that it's now so long in the past that the majority of modern boaters have little access to this knowledge and a whole host of "new" traditions have crept in, stern lies over tiller pin as a perfect example. What can be done? Little, I fear. As an almost lifelong boater (since my early teens) I've had a constant fascination with the traditional/working boat side of things and attempt to keep some of them alive with my boat. I helped found the Waterways Craft Guild for similar reasons and again am sometimes saddened by prevailing attitudes to so called traditional crafts. As you've probabaly guessed, I'm a grumpy old git and it's perhaps as well that I've got work to do...this could become a long rant!! Cheers Dave Moore

I'm sure she'd love to be able to do it...... I'm giving tips from time to time but it's a long road. Seriously, I'm pleased to see a bit of young blood on the scene, none of us are getting any younger. The derelict bit comes from a tale told by Graham, who used to use Trevor Counsell for lettering many years ago. The girl who then looked after his books burst into his office saying "There's a tramp just arrived on the yard". Graham asked a few questions and reassured her ..."It's only Trevor who's come to do some painting"

Hi All I'm not sure whether this is the right place, if not perhaps a kind administrator will advise and/or move this thread. Every November (1st & 2nd this year) I run a "Roses and Castles" weekend at the Pumphouse adjacent to Blower's Green Lock (Parkhead) on the Dudley No 1 canal here in the West Midlands. Normally I'm full by now, but I still have a few places for interested parties. If you would like more information, either pm me or ring 07831 243001. The course costs £75 per head with lots of takeaways Cheers Dave Moore

Hi Steve This appears to have caused mayhem, I didn't realise that the arm was drained too. Any more info? Cheers Dave Moore

Hi Andy The lettering was some old derelict hanging around Pelsall! Seriously....that's an old pic and I've rewritten her last year, she now says "Norton Canes Boatbuilders" with different scrolls. She's currently at Malcolm Braine's place at Weston, at least for the time being. If you escape from Wales, give me a shout and I'll show you over...Uncle H was impressed! Dave

Hi all I've just learned how to post photos onto forum sites (I'm a bit of a grumpy IT dinosaur) and I thought some of you may like a look at http://i525.photobucket.com/albums/cc331/davemoore4/resolute007.jpg' alt='resolute007.jpg'> Cheers Dave Moore

Hi all I promised some pictures in the last post. Thanks to Derek R and his kind instructions I've managed to take pictures and put them on to a photo host site. To say I'm chuffed, especially with the Wheelock, is putting it mildly Cheers Dave[ and another The photos show the pair alonside a 12'' ruler, the head of the Harry Neal windlass and the shank of the Wheelock showing the distinctive "Clay pipe" trademark of G H Cooke, the maker

Hi All For years I've run a Roses and Castles painting weekend near Dudley (West Midlands) on the first weekend in November. By now, the course is usually full. I still have a few places and wonder if any CWDF devotees may be interested. If so, please either send a pm or phone on 07831 243001 and I will snail mail an information pack to you. With everything provided (just bring yourself) it costs £75 per head. Cheers Dave Moore

Hi all Craftmaster will supply a variety of quality plastic tapes which will give a superb crisp line. Phil offers both a 14 and 50 day tape (ie time that they can be left on ) but I 'd echo an earlier post and advise the earliest removal, having given the paint time to "flash up" and for any sags to have fallen to the bottom tape! All this will be in vain if the main panel and border paints have poor adhesion to the penultimate coat and I'd advise a test in an insconspicuous area before laying coach lines tape out. Bitter experience... I rarely have a problem taping professionally painted panels but some home grown ones have left lots of paint on the adhesive side of the tape when it's removed. Cheers Dave