RD1

About 20 years ago I was asked to design the electronics to test remanufactured car alternators, the ones you find as exchange units in Halfords and the like. I did a lot of research at the time, some regulators were remote, usually the Japanese units, most lucas type were on board, some had the tachometer output. The output was tested into a dummy load and voltage readings and revs were taken and the output parameters checked against known data, and there were many alternator types even then. Non had a variable regulator at the time, and the average test voltage output was 14.4 volts +/- a tolerance as per the data sheet. Batteries should have the charge voltage changed to suit the ambient temperature of the surroundings, but also of the battery it'self but 20 years ago, no facilities were available, so it was a case of..... that'll do, and most of the time it was fine in the UK environment, and possibly world wide, maybe Volvos and Saab had something extra for their environment not personally aware of anything though. These days a modern alternator tester would be linked to a computer and most tests automatic, but Mr Alternator repair man, can probably repair your alternator for a fraction of the price of an exchange unit, usually while you wait and most of the time, the fault is usually the diode bank, symptoms are... a discharge of the battery when nothing is on, proven by disconnecting the alternator plug. The other fault is worn pick up brushes, no output, but after very high mileage, or the regulator can fail. Not forgetting if the ignition warning lamp has failed, it won't give the start up current to the field windings, so no output. (some do self excite... oohh missus). Mr Alternator repair man probably has a big electric motor, an ammeter and a voltmeter and a battery, throw the alternator onto the test rig before repair and after repair, if there is an improvement after replacing something.... job done. 99.9% of the time the repair is successful. So I hope this post can help a few of you, to diagnose an alternator fault and not overspend on an exchange or a call out fee for something fairly simple. When we comissioned the alternator test rig, the client asked for a reconditioned starter motor tester... boy this was a challenge, some hefty currents there, but hey we did that too, I did the electronics, a colleague did the mechanics. I wouldn't know where to start on the latest alternators, our Yeti has stop start technology, with regenerative braking that puts power back to the battery when you slow down. I monitored the voltage once on a one hour car journey and the voltage on the accessory socket in the car varied between 12.5 volts to over 14.5 volts ... I initially thought duff alternator, but the battery voltage has to be low to accept a regenerative output from the alternator when you slow down. Too much technology to go wrong in my opinion... The battery is a heavy duty AGM battery, that has to be coded to the car if you change it... hmm 1 step forward, three steps back... I prefer old technology, a 9v battery a bulb and a length of wire, gaffer tape and WD40 If it moves and it shouldn't... gaffer tape, if it doesn't move and it should... WD40 If a small hammer doesn't work... get a bigger hammer. I think this methology still applies to most of the older boats, and can be fixed at the riverside with a basic tool kit, once they start adding dpf filters and emission controls to boat engines with all the sensors that invariably go wrong, and the fault codes, and laptops to diagnose the fault, then I think boating will be out of the budget of a lot of boat owners. I think the time will come, they have made a start and stopped the manufacture and sales of new two stroke outboards because of excessive emissions. What will be next? I think we have a few years yet, and what is ok today, will still be ok when any new legislation does eventually come in. Best regards, Richard

A car alternator is not primarily designed to charge a battery, that is it's secondary function. A car alternator is designed to run all the electrics of a vehicle, that could be on at the same time. Could be 100 amps or more. Heated front and rear screen, electric seat heaters, headlights, wipers etc. It is designed to do this over a wide engine rev range, however there are times when the alternator alone cannot meet this power load, sitting at traffic lights for example, so energy is taken from the battery to compensate the alternators short comings. When revs increase, there may be some excess charge available, then this is used to put some charge back into the battery. Now with say a conventional narrow boat, or cruiser, the alternator doesn't have particularly high power requirements, a pump or two, electric fridge, some electronic instrumentation etc nowhere near the total amperage rating of the alternator. Not all this available alternator spare output is available to charge the battery, the battery itself limits the current, due to a fixed voltage generated by the car type alternator, so it does not efficiently charge the battery in the shortest possible time. However, if the voltage of the alternator output can be increased to provide bulk charge then the battery can accept a larger current, and thus the battery can be charged more quickly. Provision has to be made to ensure minimum gassing occurs and the battery temperature can be monitored, a hot battery is not a healthy battery. This is what you get when you get a marine charging system, such as those made by Sterling. As I say, a car alternator is not an efficient way to charge a battery, ok eventually it will, cruising 4- 6 hours a day (Broads hire craft suggest this figure),(depending on daily usage and battery state of charge) but if you don't do the cruising, you will burn many litres of diesel just sitting on the mooring putting a minimum inefficient charge into the batteries and risk glazing the bores of the cylinders. A car type alternator is not that efficient at charging batteries, as I say, it was never designed to do that as it's first function. Car alternators are used a lot... because they are cheap, easy to replace, and if you cruise several hours every day, do a superb job, but if you are a liveaboard, or don't cruise regularly, then you need a more efficient set up.

Might this make the tiles quite flexible and might crack the hard grout ? As a precaution, carry some spare tiles and a small amount of adhesive/grout. Failing that, contact NASA, and ask what they used to attach the heat shield tiles on the space shuttle lol.

Wouldn't do any harm to clean them, but avoid using a metal wire brush, if a steel brush it can impregnate the anode with steel, or other metal, and this can erode the anode quicker, or make it less effective.

To be fair, there are more complaints about hire boats and batteries on the Broads than anything else. Boats have been sent out with partially charged batteries, they are not at their home base long enough between hires to charge them, and during the evening, when heating is required, hirers start their engines to put a charge into the batteries, but this has been known to happen at midnight or later often in crowded stern on moorings, like at Ranworth. The later boats no longer have gas on board, and rely on an inverter to run a microwave or electric hob, and again if you want a warm drink late at night, you have to start the engine. There are electric hook up points, but not enough, and poor access to the few there are. There has been a lot of friction at moorings due to running engines, and signage has gone up in many places that prohibits the running of engines, between 8:00 pm and 8:00 am or other times as seen fit. So if you think all will be well hiring a boat, then it all depends on the state of charge of the batteries. The hire companies are called out a lot to replace batteries after various complaints by their customers.

Since polystyrene was mentioned, years ago warnings were put out using polystyrene insulation in contact with PVC covered cables. They react, and the pvc insulation of the cable hardens, breaks down with the potential for short circuits over time. So caution where you use it.

t Well does getting a brand new car battery at three years old count as a refund?? well not truely in the sense, but I managed it. To be fair my 4x4 was not getting used a great deal, had an occasional charge, but one day it struggled to turn the engine over, it was in a warm garage, so not really a great challenge. Well I went to the place I bought it, a battery specialist, he brought out all kinds of test equipment, being an electronic engineer, I countered every comment he said, regarding open terminal voltage being good, when the car had just been run, so that reading was irrelevant, he came back with a digital load tester, I said look at that, it doesn't have the Cold Cranking amps as per the spec, look at that low terminal voltage... clearly a cell down there... he dissapeared came back with a brand new battery, Anyhow, I achieved it. That battery is still in my 4x4 nearly three years, still fine, but it gets a proper charge from a 4 stage charger. Now, I am pleased that another poster has mentioned that a standard alternator can't fully charge a battery, especially in an efficient time, when I mentioned it, I was "advised" differently ! So maybe I know a bit more about battery technology than people think. Anyhow, I have 2 Lucas 96 Ah Supreme, So called leisure batteries, they are soon to be 4 years old, they have been charged by solar power for most of that time with occasional shore power, and an outboard charge coil that gives out maybe 6 amps on a good day. 3 x 10 watt solar panels with a voltage regulator have helped these batteries long term. The spec of the battery is 500 cycles of 50% discharge, so as I try to avoid discharging them below 80% very often, then I would hope they might do a few years more yet. Just for reference, the batteries have their own isolator and are never left connected together when the boat is unattended. Otherwise should a cell fail, then the other battety can discharge into that, so in a very short time, before you have to replace the lot. As I have said before, when onshore power, each battery has it's own numax multistage charger, that gives up to 10 amps, which is approx 10% of each batteries Ahr rate, ehich is the preferred charge rate to reduce gassing. I did mention on my last post, that I cannot have both batteries on line when each charger is charging it's own battery, I had a comment on that too! clearly if one charger is in float charge on one battery, when the other charger is on bulk charge or on equilisation, then the two chargers would be in opposition. That is fairly obvious to most people. What I could do, or if a charger fails, then take one charger off line, and put both batteries to on line, then the charger will now see one battery with an AHr rating of 192 AHr, still within spec for the numax charger. Incidentally I am lead to believe that the Lucas batteries that I have are also branded as Numax too. In fact, world wide there are not that many battery msnufacturers, many use badge engineering, Halfords have their own badged range, Yuassa was mentioned but I guess they use others too, so do Ford with badged " Motorcraft" All the manufactures have a budget range, a premium range, an ultra premium range, usually proportional to the weight of the battery, if using standard wet cell lead acid technology. More weight, more likely more lead, but is no guarantee of course. The battery companies that cell budget ranges probably don't have the prestigious badge of the manufacture, but branded with a unknown name, we had "Tudor battery in a Citroen" an "Orange leisure battery" as sold by towsure. etc etc It was when I bought cheap so called "leisure batteries" from multinational caravan parts dealers that I first suspected that some cheap brands were just starter batteries, with a fancy label. Mind you, the other day I found a real budget " leisure battery" it said Not to be used as a starter battery, and Not to be used with a motor mover. Not sure what technology that was, a copper nail with a steel nail in a lemon lol. You pays your money... as long as you are not being ripped off, then usually a more expensive heavier battery preferably a traction battery is best. I have also read about semi traction, not sure what this means, but on one site, my lucas Supreme are labelled as that. A proper leisure battery I guess. Regards, Richard

I know on the Trent and Mersey in Cheshire, the canal runs along side a council waste transfer site, so I wonder if there is a similar one close to the navigation where you are. I think the best bet, is to find a landowner, marina or somewhere with road access for a skip or one of these 1 tonne bags. If you have a car, as said, a little and often, depending on the size of your vehicle, you can buy a couple of these large tarp type bags, to help keep your car clean. Or... you could hire a van for a day. or even a man with a van, but then it becomes commercial waste and you have to pay for disposal. Unless the man with a van is a fly tipper, who should be reported, but then it could still get up and bite you. Either way, it might cost you £100 or so, to dispose of it, depending how much you have. Another option, is if you are a rate payer, or know someone who is, ask the council to do a collect, not sure they will take loose rubbish though. Just some ideas, that might give inspiration. Richard

It would be interesting to know how much of the current limit is caused by the starter and battery connection cables and contact resistance of inline switches and terminals. If you know the cable size and length of the interconnecting cables then you can find the resistance of the cable, but the most limiting factor could be the internal resistance of the battery, this is where the Cold Cranking Amps CCA comes into effect. To check connection and cable resistance, it would useful to monitor the voltage at the battery lead terminals, and the voltage on the connection bolts on the starter, then all connection points in between, any points of low or poor resistance can be adressed if necessary. Your graph looks a very healthy indication of a good set up.

Only when he empties it lol...

It took me a while to discover this, but I now I think I will fit in well. lol

You can try the Lichfield and Hatherton canal trust, see http://www.lhcrt.org.uk/aqueduct.htm and you can view one of the 7 wonders of the M6 toll road... I wonder what that empty steel aqueduct is doing with no embankment crossing the M6 Toll near Brownhills lol?

What a load of cr*p !!! lol I meant the contents, not the topic of discussion lol. I think it's worth looking at shore based facilities, pubs, public conveniences, silver birch, oak trees etc.

Sounds like the water pressure is too high to me. If the flow rate is say twice the original flow rate, then the pump would reach it's pressure sooner and cut off sooner, the pressure in the pipe would be the same. The flow rate to the toilet would remain the same, caused by the restriction in the toilet, but double the pressure, you might double the flow rate. So I would be looking at the pressure, some are 15 psi some 30 psi when bought new, or any pressure in between, so time to look at some labels on the new pump, old one if possible too. You can buy a pressure gauge on a hose with a 1/2" bsp fitting, like a washing machine fitting, again try screwfix... Three times or more, Screwfix has been mentioned lol... are we on commission lol. Note... Toolstation can be cheaper, and only need £10 minimum spend for free delivery lol.. That evens things out lol. Richard

To test the corrosion inhibitors in my central heating, I drain some out, enough to completely fill (so you don't add any more oxygen) a jam jar, add some untreated virgin steel wool, the finer the better, Screwfix sell it for decorators or plumbers, brillo pads do not work lol. Shake every day and observe the colour of the steel wool, and look for any rust deposits. Review in a month, if the steel wool is still shiny, your inhibitors are ok. You can also buy domestic heating inhibitors with anti freeze properties too. To add more confusion lol. Be aware, that car type antifreeze also raises the boiling point of the water to beyond 100 c even if not under pressure, so if you have an engine that is prone to overheating, then an alternative inhibitor needs to be looked at with caution, I doubt manufacturers will issue data on boiling point changes based on pressure and various dilutions. If in doubt, carry enough of the old type antifreeze to go back to a solution you know works. Just my thoughts. Richard

When we had the caravan we kept the loo, then we bought the boat, it was the same loo but without the level contents, 265 vs 165 Original 265 is 30 years old, 165 probably the same. Can't complain, will now make do, as deteriorating health may stop us boating sooner than we had hoped. We are taking it season by season now, but we did buy some new fenders for the Thames, a month or so ago, looking at other boats on the Thames, they seem to go quite big.

It's a new line, as the Thetford version can be fully discharged without sulphation, but they do suffer calcification, or lime deposits. Point taken though, we are off topic.

I replaced the lip seal and the vent seal, easy to get to, the internal bellows is deep inside the base over the sliding rod of the handle. Richard Edit... just added a picture, I hope, see item 26

Thanks for the post, but it's not the pump bellows on the top, but the bellows in the base that seal the pull handle from the contents. The bellows must have split, and allow fluid to pass the handle when you tilt the base. According to various websites, caravan dealers, Thetford etc, they don't list the part number now, let alone how to fit it lol I found some similar bellows that are used for brake cables, but could not confirm dimensions or how to replace it. So this base has become the stand by, as the other is fine after the new seals. Thanks for the suggestion though. Richard

Thetford Porta Potti with a second base, never a sanitary station when you need one lol. Just fitted new seals to one base, but spare base the bellows leak, and can't be replaced, but keep it horizontal, and you don't get your own back. lol. but it is only for emergencies.

I've put all my toys back in the pram now, there have been some interesting support from members, so I'll give it a chance. I guess it takes time to get used to a forum. I have a lot to offer, and even after 57 years of boating I clearly have a lot to learn. Thanks guys, Richard.

I apologise to all people reading the threads that I have posted, clearly it is not considered as being of any use. To be fair, since joining I have not requested any information that might help me, I have posted quite a bit on electronic and electrical installations, which I thought was appreciated, clearly not. To be fair, I am getting absolutely nothing out of this forum, "what ever" his name is has made me so unwelcome, so I see no point in continuing my membership. G O O D B Y E

I think you have it in for me, I try to help with my help and am dissed at every opportunity. I am not proving that car alternators cannot charge a battery to full capacity because there is a lot of information on the net, this is why companies like Sterling power have electronics available to get the most out of the alternator as possible.

I am NOT saying that at all, it's just a balance on how often you want to replace them, how many at a time, it is the owner's choice, I am just giving one point of view, for the maximum number of seasons use, then don't deeply discharge them. You could draw a graph cost of ownership say Amp Hours vs cost and inconvienience of arranging to change them. Each boat is different, daily use is different, rate of charge either by engine, solar or shore power is different. We have an outboard that can charge at 10 amps max, but more often at 6amps at cruising speed, we have shore power on our home mooring, so I try to keep to 80% but if we moor up in a nice spot, for an extra day, I know I can discharge them more, so I still have power for the heating, shower pump, DVD tv, led lighting etc etc. Years ago, we used to have one cheap 75Ah so called leisure battery, no shore power, just engine charging from a 6amp coil that barely put out 4 amps, sometimes the battery got down to 9 volts, and after removal and a charge recovered to approx 50% of it's capacity, so I have learnt a lot about batteries and how to get the best out of them, just to note, the engine is electric start too, but with a rope pull, just as well lol...