installing new batteries and smartguage, and charging

[Wild Is The Wind]

We are just about to replace 4 leisure batteries and a smart guage.

 

Have read lots of posts but battery expertise is not easy to achieve so we want to keep things simple at this stage, for us and the family when on board, ie a device that tells us when to charge and when to stop charging.

 

Two questions at this stage:

 

1. Cannot afford all at once. Would it be better to buy all 4 baterries then the Monitor next month, or 2 batts and Monitor then further2 batts following month?

 

2. If poss we want to do a good charge regularly with a Generator. Is it possible to plug a genny into the landline socket and charge through the victron multiplus 3000 inverter / charger? Is it that simple.

 

Checking out the Generator model and how noisy it is this week, and hopefully by the spring can get some solar to replace it.

 

Any advice much appreciated.

[Ex- Member]

It's best practice to fit and start using batteries at the same time, this keeps them equalised. Also remember the way you wire batteries has an effect on their equalisation, so + connected at one end of the bank positive the other is the easy version. There's some battery wiring info on the smartgauge site.

 

2. If poss we want to do a good charge regularly with a Generator. Is it possible to plug a genny into the landline socket and charge through the victron multiplus 3000 inverter / charger? Is it that simple.

 

 

As long as the generator is powerful enough. If you give the outputs other members will advise on generator size.

 

Checking out the Generator model and how noisy it is this week, and hopefully by the spring can get some solar to replace it.

 

 

Going solar is a no brainer, do your homework, power audits etc, solar really is the dogs wosnames, we're still getting reasonable energy levels this time of year.

Edited November 9, 2013 by Julynian

[Robbo]

As long as the generator is powerful enough. If you give the outputs other members will advise on generator size.

 

As the OP has a victron combi, if has a remote you can change what amps the generator can produce, so you don't need as big generator.

[Wild Is The Wind]

So batteries first, will have a look at wiring diagrams, thanks.

 

Have always charged via engine, but read a Generator can be used via victron combi charger. Dont want to Do this without advice first though. Not sure about remote, just have a victron box on bulkhead.

[Ex- Member]

So batteries first, will have a look at wiring diagrams, thanks.

 

Have always charged via engine, but read a Generator can be used via victron combi charger. Dont want to Do this without advice first though. Not sure about remote, just have a victron box on bulkhead.

 

Running a boat engine for electrical energy is total madness unless you can get decent charging amperage, A good genny will save you a lot in fuel costs but then you have the hassles of running it and filling it with fuel possibly petrol depending on what generator you use.

 

I should have added though that charging from a victron type charger is good for your batteries more so than engine charging.

 

We've gone or are going the route of a home made built in small diesel engined generator that will bulk charge batteries very quickly with 180amp output from 2 x 90 amp alternators. The wee engine uses a fraction of the fuel the boat engine does and puts out over double the amps when required.

Edited November 9, 2013 by Julynian

[Wild Is The Wind]

 

 

What is that costing to Set up Julynian?

 

Think that Sounds great but may Not be affordable?

Edited November 9, 2013 by Wild Is The Wind

[blackrose]

What is the charger output of your

 

2. If poss we want to do a good charge regularly with a Generator. Is it possible to plug a genny into the landline socket and charge through the victron multiplus 3000 inverter / charger? Is it that simple.

 

What is the charger output of your combi? It will be 3000/70 or 3000/120 or something like that. Presumbably it is 12v rather than 24v?

 

Anyway, as an example, if the output of the charger is 70amp you can do a calculation. 70amps x 14.8volts (max charge voltage for wet-lead acid batteries) x 1.15 to cover inefficiences = 1,191 watts (or 1.2kW). The outputs of most generators have a number such as 1.0 but this is the peak output, not rated output, so you would need a generator that puts out 1.2kW (rated). However, if I had a 70amp charger I'd be looking for a 2kW generator, something like the Honda EU20i or the much cheaper Kippor 2kW model which are very quiet and put out about 1.6kW rated. This will also give you a bit of extra AC power to run some low power appliances such as a mains TV, table lamps, etc, while the batteries are charging.

 

The only caveat to that is that I think the Victon combi may have a switch so that you can charge at 50% or 75% of maximum charger output. This would allow you to buy a smaller generator, but would obviously increase your charging time.

 

As Julynian says, keeping petrol onboard introduces extra hazards which you must be aware of. Storage of petrol is much like LPG and refueling your generator should preferably be done off the boat. Also there are additional hazards of CO poisoning. Make sure you don't have doors or windows open which allow exhaust fumes to blow into your boat or your neighbour's boats.

Edited November 9, 2013 by blackrose

[Ex- Member]

So batteries first, will have a look at wiring diagrams, thanks.

 

Have always charged via engine, but read a Generator can be used via victron combi charger. Dont want to Do this without advice first though. Not sure about remote, just have a victron box on bulkhead.

Please ignore that läst post. Silly phone.

 

What is that costing to Set up Julynian?

 

Think that Sounds great but may Not be affordable?

 

 

I'm not sure of total cost yet, I bought a nearly new Kubota OC60 engine for under £200, quite a bargain. I purchased 2 new Bosch 90 amp alternators for £70 delivered.

 

I've had to buy some bracketry S/S nuts & bolts, engine mounts and other odds & ends for ball park £50

 

I have an engineer putting most of this together for us, although I've supplied the engine base mounts & fittings, he's doing (pullies fan belting adjusters etc) There's also an electrician to wire in a small engine ignition & control panel on a 7 f/t loom. I've budgeted £500 for their services.

 

I'll also need some 70mm cabling to wire up the alternators

 

I'm hoping it all comes in under a grand bearing in mind the exhaust fitting to the hull connecting to main fuel tank and filters required for that.

 

But it will be remote start and very low maintenance. Our engine running time since being on the water is now up to 17 hours in the past 3 months and rising, so want to get this sorted soon.

[Wild Is The Wind]

Just checked the Generator we have been given, its in fill working order and:

 

Red kipor Digital petrol

Iso 9001

Kge 2000tc

56.61db a

Rated Output 8.6kva

Max Output 2.00kva

 

Maybe its Not big enough?

 

The victron is 12v 3000 120

 

What you are doing Sounds fantastic but well beyond our capability and means atm. Good luck with it though.

 

Blackrose, as novices the calculations are a Bit complex but trying to take them in, thanks.

 

 

Generator currently stored in unused gas locker. Was told to store in engine room but was worried about that so moved it.

As the OP has a victron combi, if has a remote you can change what amps the generator can produce, so you don't need as big generator.

Is the remote something you can buy and bolt on?

[smileypete]

If you're off grid liveaboard you may want to consider the proper semi traction batts like Trojan T105 and US Battery US2200.

 

In daily use they also benefit from regular equalisation charging, your genny/victron setup should be able to do that. But they're less fussy about depth of discharge and should last a lot longer than leisure batts.

 

Don't forget the old batts are worth a bit of £££ scrap, helps make the new bank a bit cheaper effectively.

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

Edited November 9, 2013 by smileypete

[Wild Is The Wind]

Thanks Smiley Pete. Current batteries are 4 x 110ah Lucas xv. Have looked at different types of batteries but its confusing. Could you recomend something specific (a link?)

[by'eck]

Just checked the Generator we have been given, its in fill working order and:

 

Red kipor Digital petrol

Iso 9001

Kge 2000tc

56.61db a

Rated Output 8.6kva

Max Output 2.00kva

 

Maybe its Not big enough?

 

The victron is 12v 3000 120

 

What you are doing Sounds fantastic but well beyond our capability and means atm. Good luck with it though.

 

Blackrose, as novices the calculations are a Bit complex but trying to take them in, thanks.

 

 

Generator currently stored in unused gas locker. Was told to store in engine room but was worried about that so moved it.

 

Is the remote something you can buy and bolt on?

 

Yes the 1.6 kVA continuous rating of your generator will not power your Victron's 120 amp charger when working flat out.

 

As Robbo alludes to though, the current draw of the Victron's charger can be adjusted under VE net software to lower its charge current and hence its AC current draw to suit the generator.

[Wild Is The Wind]

Thank you for clarfying that the genny isnt big enough.

 

Now need to decide if we would be able to understand how to ist

Use Software to configure the victron if that Would be wothwhile.

 

If Not its engine running and solar ASAP

[blackrose]

Generator currently stored in unused gas locker. Was told to store in engine room but was worried about that so moved it.

 

Whoever told you that is a fool. Think of your unused generator as a petrol container. Would you store a jerrycan full of petrol in your engine room? Gas locker is good, but don't try to run it in there.

Thank you for clarfying that the genny isnt big enough.

 

Now need to decide if we would be able to understand how to ist

Use Software to configure the victron if that Would be wothwhile.

 

If Not its engine running and solar ASAP

 

Tun down the victron charger control to 75% and your generator should run it. 90amps x 14.8v x 1.15 (power factor) = 1,532 watts.

 

Make sure you're not running any other AC appliances from the generator at the same time. If that doesn't work turn the victron down a bit lower (60%). Also, switch the victron to "charge only" to simplify things. It will reduce your charge time if you're not pulling big loads from the batteries through the inverter.

Edited November 9, 2013 by blackrose

[Ex- Member]

We can highly recommend these fitted a year ago and still in excellent condition. There the same a smilypete mentioned earlier along with the Trojan T105 again a similar and good battery.

 

I prefer the US 2200 simply because the Americans rate them highly for RV use and there was some excellent feedback for them, as is with the T105

 

I would never ever bother again with standard wet lead acid leisure batteries, the us and T105 are very reasonably priced and not much dearer than a bog standard leisure. The few extra quid quid for the much better quality batteries is money well spent IMHO

 

http://www.tayna.co.uk/US2200-Deep-Cycle-Monobloc-Battery-P4117.html

[Wild Is The Wind]

I know. Its quite scary what some people come out with, told to run it from engine room too. I knew this was wrong though, just commonsense.

[nb Innisfree]

Just checked the Generator we have been given, its in fill working order and:

 

Red kipor Digital petrol

Iso 9001

Kge 2000tc

56.61db a

Rated Output 8.6kva

Max Output 2.00kva

 

Maybe its Not big enough?

 

The victron is 12v 3000 120

 

 

Red Kipors are MSW, yellow PSW, Victron is PSW but will only be able to mimic genny waveform which be a waste of a top notch inverter, better to use PSW genny.

 

ETA: I think you mean 1.6kva rated output not 8.6!

Edited November 9, 2013 by nb Innisfree

[blackrose]

I know. Its quite scary what some people come out with, told to run it from engine room too. I knew this was wrong though, just commonsense.

 

The only kind of generator you ca have in a boat engine room is a diesel generator.

Red Kipors are MSW, yellow PSW, Victron is PSW but will only be able to mimic genny waveform which be a waste of a top notch inverter, better to use PSW genny.

 

ETA: I think you mean 1.6kva rated output not 8.6!

 

But if all she wants to do is run the charger part of the Victron, won't her red Kippor do that? I don't have a combi so I'm not sure how they work, but I thought they could be set on "charge only". Does that require a pure sine wave from the generator?

Edited November 9, 2013 by blackrose

[Wild Is The Wind]

Blackrose - doesnt seem to be any control to turn down victron. But there is a charger only Button.

 

Julynian - thanks for the link

[smileypete]

Thanks Smiley Pete. Current batteries are 4 x 110ah Lucas xv. Have looked at different types of batteries but its confusing. Could you recomend something specific (a link?)

 

4 of these, though if your electrical needs are quite modest then just a pair might do:

 

http://www.tayna.co.uk/US2200-Deep-Cycle-Monobloc-Battery-P4117.html

http://www.tayna.co.uk/T-105-Trojan-Battery-Deep-Cycle-T105-P7253.html

 

They're about the same performance wise, a trawl of the web and phoning suppliers for a deal on 4 may turn up a better price.

 

Bear in mind they're a different 'foot print' to standard leisure batts so the batt box and leads may need rejigging. For a 12V bank wire them in series-parallel to give a 12V 480Ah bank (last diagram on this page):

 

http://www.trojanbattery.com/tech-support/techologylibrary/connectionsdiagram.aspx

 

If in daily off grid liveaboard use a long weekly charge plus fornight or monthly 'equalisation charge' will keep them tippy top. For dimensions and more details of care and maintenance have a look through the technical informaton:

 

http://www.usbattery.com/usb_index.html

http://www.trojanbattery.com/Tech-Support/TechSupport.aspx

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

Edited November 9, 2013 by smileypete

[Wild Is The Wind]

Thanks Pete, really helpful

[Robbo]

 

The victron is 12v 3000 120

 

 

Is the remote something you can buy and bolt on?

 

Yep, here's a list, it will be one of the multi controls.. You can dial back the amount the charger takes from the shore or generator just be using the knob. Victron Inverters are also set to only use 75% by default of amps for the charger (so as your is 120, it will only by default be 90), you can change this via software (or maybe dip switches). If you have mor)e than 450Ah in batteries and your generator can take the extra amps it may be worth changing that to more (will shorten the battery life but save on petrol.

 

I have similar setup, but 4kw genny and a 120amp victron combi, I have it set to use all the 120amp, but dial it back when on shore power as it will give it a slower and better charge. I have around 770Ah of batteries.

 

The dial is also useful for when your generator is low powered or on shore line that can only so amount of amps. The combi will provide the extra (from batteries) when needed (it's called power assist). So if you only have a 1kw genny, you can still run a 1.5kw vac, washing machine, etc.

Edited November 9, 2013 by Robbo

[Wild Is The Wind]

That is really useful thank you Robbo.

 

So i know to get all the batteries together and what to get

 

Have the Info about how to control the victron to charge with the low Output genny we have and what to get if we have to replace the genny

 

Two more questions:

 

- does it matter that the Red kippor is pure sine wave and Not msv ?

(Whatever msv is)?

 

- should i get an mppt controller instead of smartguage? Would an mppt Show state of charge ? Think i saw this on another thread and if so this Would move us closer to having solar to help keep batteries healthy sooner.

[nb Innisfree]

 

The only kind of generator you ca have in a boat engine room is a diesel generator.

 

 

But if all she wants to do is run the charger part of the Victron, won't her red Kippor do that? I don't have a combi so I'm not sure how they work, but I thought they could be set on "charge only". Does that require a pure sine wave from the generator?

My mistake, I thought it was the Multiplus version which can augment shorepower or a genny from the batteries, (Power Assist) in that case the MSW from the genny would force the Victron to supply the same rather than PSW. Both versions don't require PSW as they can mimic whatever waveform is presented.

 

On the other hand my assumption could be correct as it might be a Multiplus.

 

Yep, here's a list, it will be one of the multi controls.. You can dial back the amount the charger takes from the shore or generator just be using the knob. Victron Inverters are also set to only use 75% by default of amps for the charger (so as your is 120, it will only by default be 90), you can change this via software (or maybe dip switches). If you have mor)e than 450Ah in batteries and your generator can take the extra amps it may be worth changing that to more (will shorten the battery life but save on petrol.

 

I have similar setup, but 4kw genny and a 120amp victron combi, I have it set to use all the 120amp, but dial it back when on shore power as it will give it a slower and better charge. I have around 770Ah of batteries.

 

The dial is also useful for when your generator is low powered or on shore line that can only so amount of amps. The combi will provide the extra (from batteries) when needed (it's called power assist). So if you only have a 1kw genny, you can still run a 1.5kw vac, washing machine, etc.

Don't forget 'Power Assist' only comes with the Multiplus model, unless it's changed recently.

That is really useful thank you Robbo.

 

So i know to get all the batteries together and what to get

 

Have the Info about how to control the victron to charge with the low Output genny we have and what to get if we have to replace the genny

 

Two more questions:

 

- does it matter that the Red kipor is pure sine wave and Not msv ?

(Whatever msv is)?

 

- should i get an mppt controller instead of smartguage? Would an mppt Show state of charge ? Think i saw this on another thread and if so this Would move us closer to having solar to help keep batteries healthy sooner.

Red Kipors are MSW (modified sine wave) Yellow ones are PSW (pure sine wave) Edited November 9, 2013 by nb Innisfree

[Wild Is The Wind]

Great got the psw and msw wrong but am trying hard lol

 

The victron is a multiplus...