Shads BCN Plates

[Tiggers]

I have recently noticed that Shads original BCN plates are currently for sale on EBay. I find this highly disappointing that they were not offered to museum first, particularly as they are being listed by someone who classes himself as an 'historian'. Those plates belong with the boat.

Edited September 23, 2013 by Tiggers

[carlt]

Those plates belong with the boat. I hope they are ashamed, especially as it has been suggested that it has been done out of spite due to TWT loosing something of theirs

Laurence has stated quite clearly, on the forum, why he is relieving himself of some of his artefacts and I see no reason to disbelieve him.

 

Whilst I agree that it would be nice if they were reunited with the boat I do not think it fair to expect the current owner to sell his property at a knock down price.

 

The museum has the same chance to bid on the item as everybody else and will get them at the fairest price (one bid higher than the second highest bid).

My personal opinion is that I hope the museum spends its money on preserving the hull of one of their boats rather than buy a simple plaque.

[Tiggers]

They are spending the money on the boat, hence why she is under goinging restoration at this very moment, and as funding is incredibly tight, I doubt very much it would stretch to reuniting her with her plates

Not for the price they are going for on eBay any way

[pete harrison]

I have recently noticed that Shads original BCN plates are currently for sale on EBay. I find this highly disappointing that they were not offered to museum first, particularly as they are being listed by someone who classes himself as an 'historian'. Those plates belong with the boat.

This then begs the question about the hundreds of gauge plates currently in museum collections and whether they should be returned to the boat where the boat still exists (and several do).

 

I am afraid I am with Carl on this, and had Mr Hogg not put BCN 1905 up for auction you would probably of never known that he owned it - or that it still existed. It is in the very nature of canal boat research that interesting things come our way, especially to those of us who have been doing it for a long time, and my private collection is no different. Anybody, including restoration organisations or their enthusiastic staff can bid on BCN 1905 - and if they feel strongly enough I am sure they will.

 

The more interesting question to me is where is the other BCN 1905 plate ?

[Tiggers]

The difference with the museum owning/selling things compared with a private person is that if they were to sell off say BCN plates, the people who donated then in the first place would not be best pleased as their intention was for them to be in the museum, not to be used to make money. It may also put off others from donating items if they see the museum giving them away

[carlt]

The difference with the museum owning/selling things compared with a private person is that if they were to sell off say BCN plates, the people who donated then in the first place would not be best pleased as their intention was for them to be in the museum, not to be used to make money. It may also put off others from donating items if they see the museum giving them away

So you acknowledge that the private owner is not fettered by such a restriction?

[Tiggers]

I have not suggested that he should have given the plates back to shad, but I do feel they should have had first refusal, and I do not agree with selling something out of spite

[richardf]

I have not suggested that he should have given the plates back to shad, but I do feel they should have had first refusal, and I do not agree with selling something out of spite

 

I agree - 100%

[pete harrison]

The difference with the museum owning/selling things compared with a private person is that if they were to sell off say BCN plates, the people who donated then in the first place would not be best pleased as their intention was for them to be in the museum, not to be used to make money. It may also put off others from donating items if they see the museum giving them away

The only reason a visitor would wish to enter a museum is to see exhibits. If the visitor has to pay a fee to enter a museum to see the exhibits then the exhibits are being used to make money (the politics of whether the money is for a profit or non-profit making orgaisation / charity being irrelevant).

[carlt]

I have not suggested that he should have given the plates back to shad, but I do feel they should have had first refusal, and I do not agree with selling something out of spite

How would you suggest a price be set?

 

The museum is perfectly welcome to bid on them and the price will be fair.

 

This is the registration plate off an old boat we are discussing here, not the Venus de Milo's arms.

 

I think the "spite" accusation is a little bit strong without substantiation and, as I have already said, does not add up if you take the vendor's other lots into consideration and his explanation for parting with them.

 

His property therefore it is entirely up to him how he disposes of it.

[cheshire~rose]

I can see both sides to this. Clearly the plates have a value and why should the owner of any item simply give it away because of any historic significance?

 

I can also see that where funding to restore or maintain a vessel is so tight it can be beyond the purse strings to be able to purchase the item at the going market rate.

 

 

It s entirely possible whoever is bidding is doing so in order to then donate the plate to the boat but we cannot be certain. I think there are at least 2 people who have suggested they have bid to for that reason but the price has now gone too high. Maybe every well meaning person is outbidding another in the quest to get the plate back for Shad?

 

Maybe in the process of doing so they plate has gone beyond the market rate. If that is the case then perhaps the seller might consider donating a portion of the funds raised back to the restoration, I have no idea what the market rate of such things are and whether this plate has reached it or not.

 

It s just a suggestion for a way forward that may prevent future bad feeling between different parties

[Tiggers]

I will retract the out of spite comment, it was said to me that the reason they were not returned to Shad was because TWT had lost something of Laurence's, but I do not personally have proof for this and it would be unfair of me to say that without first giving him a chance to reply

Edited September 23, 2013 by Tiggers

[Laurence Hogg]

They are spending the money on the boat, hence why she is under goinging restoration at this very moment, and as funding is incredibly tight, I doubt very much it would stretch to reuniting her with her plates

Not for the price they are going for on eBay any way

 

I will retract the out of spite comment, it was said to me that the reason they were not returned to Shad was because TWT had lost something of Laurence's, but I do not personally have proof for this and it would be unfair of me to say that without first giving him a chance to reply

 

First there is only one plate up for grabs and I have no idea where the other one is as far as I knew it was on the boat. The plate came to me in a collection from a late friend.

TWT have lost a considerable amount of my personal stuff which was on loan to them, included are two "sight" glasses from a FMC Boiler in brass and glass which were exhibited fairly recently at Stoke Bruern, also a Jess Owen stool plus a lot of other items.

 

They even managed to lose the huge prop and stern shaft and part of the counter from FMC "Earl" the steamer the only remaining physical evidence of a GJCC steaamer, but this has been found, stored and "mis labelled".

TWT / BW was a disgusting custodian of relics with scant records kept and little knowledge of what they held, I see no proof this has changed and apart from wild press releases indicating collections to be digitised by the autumn (thats now btw) and other things of minor nature, nothing seems to have changed

.

Even now they are using photographs from my collection taken by me without credit to illustrate "Shad" (and It beggars belief how they got their hands on them). The same goes for other photographers collections.

 

I am not the only person with missing or misused objects and images etc in their collections.

 

I wouldnt give anything to the CRT museums now, even if it did belong to one of their exhibits.

TWT nor their successors have never had the decency to offer an apology or recompense for the stuff missing, Roger Hanbury took charge of the "search" calling in "help" from outside not that that did any good, all he wanted to do was to keep his nose "tecnically" clean.

 

So no, sod them, if they want the plate let them bid.

TWT /CRT have already "disposed of" / "lost " far more our heritage than they have conserved - much better everything goes to private collections IMHO and that certainly should include all of their boats on leases.

 

Not many privately conserved historic boats end up for example like the ones at Gloucester!!!

Edited September 23, 2013 by Laurence Hogg

[c c]

Since we owned BADSEY, quite a few descendants of Jack James have said that many of his items that were lent to start the StokeBruerne museum disappeared over the years, including allegedly some items from Badsey.

 

We have BCN plates on display - they are 1164 and 14324. I believe both Laurence H and Pete H have given us info in the past on these (forgive me for not immediately going to get the info you told us about these plates) but I will - if anyone is really interested.

Edited September 23, 2013 by canalchef

[johnthebridge]

 

 

First there is only one plate up for grabs and I have no idea where the other one is as far as I knew it was on the boat. The plate came to me in a collection from a late friend.

TWT have lost a considerable amount of my personal stuff which was on loan to them, included are two "sight" glasses from a FMC Boiler in brass and glass which were exhibited fairly recently at Stoke Bruern, also a Jess Owen stool plus a lot of other items.

 

They even managed to lose the huge prop and stern shaft and part of the counter from FMC "Earl" the steamer the only remaining physical evidence of a GJCC steaamer, but this has been found, stored and "mis labelled".

TWT / BW was a disgusting custodian of relics with scant records kept and little knowledge of what they held, I see no proof this has changed and apart from wild press releases indicating collections to be digitised by the autumn (thats now btw) and other things of minor nature, nothing seems to have changed

.

Even now they are using photographs from my collection taken by me without credit to illustrate "Shad" (and It beggars belief how they got their hands on them). The same goes for other photographers collections.

 

I am not the only person with missing or misused objects and images etc in their collections.

 

I wouldnt give anything to the CRT museums now, even if it did belong to one of their exhibits.

TWT nor their successors have never had the decency to offer an apology or recompense for the stuff missing, Roger Hanbury took charge of the "search" calling in "help" from outside not that that did any good, all he wanted to do was to keep his nose "tecnically" clean.

 

So no, sod them, if they want the plate let them bid.

TWT /CRT have already "disposed of" / "lost " far more our heritage than they have conserved - much better everything goes to private collections IMHO and that certainly should include all of their boats on leases.

 

Not many privately conserved historic boats end up for example like the ones at Gloucester!!!

Absolutely right Laurence,

The boats in Gloucester are an absolute disgrace, but no more than we have come to expect from this lot. Many years ago, my brother in law lent engines (including a Petter "S" type), stools, cans, deckboard, oil-lamps and various other artefacts to Gloucester. He never had them returned. God knows what happened to them. I lent them a petrol/paraffin Kelvin and, yes, you've guessed it.

Good luck with selling the plate.

John.

Edited September 23, 2013 by johnthebridge

[Laurence Hogg]

Plate is currently at £62.00 I see no evidence of anyone from the museum bidding, you have an equal chance of winning. btw no one is complaining about the LMS plate originating from a Pickfords boat or the pair of GWR plates from a boat that still exists (I sold the boat!).

By tomorrow night we shall know the true value of a Josher motor BCN plate, then we might find a few more coming on the market, I am sure the owners of ex BW Joshers recently sold might like to see that happen.

[FMC Ling 317]

Plate is currently at £62.00 I see no evidence of anyone from the museum bidding, you have an equal chance of winning. btw no one is complaining about the LMS plate originating from a Pickfords boat or the pair of GWR plates from a boat that still exists (I sold the boat!).

By tomorrow night we shall know the true value of a Josher motor BCN plate, then we might find a few more coming on the market, I am sure the owners of ex BW Joshers recently sold might like to see that happen.

 

Well if you want to return them will use them instead

[Laurence Hogg]

 

 

Well if you want to return them will use them instead

 

 

Dont understand what this means. But btw you have positioned your BCN plates in the wrong place for that era, they should be higher near the rail or just aft of the anser pins on the yellow lower panel, I have photos which show this if you need to see.

[AMModels]

 

 

Well if you want to return them will use them instead

 

Are you really using the wrong BCN plates on a museum exhibit? It could be the angle of the image but they do not look like they are the correct number for Shad. Surely as a museum exhibit it is a prerequisite that any and all aspects of the display accurately depict the exhibit and do not contain errors, I know only too well how errors creep in and then get perpetuated by others.

[FMC Ling 317]

Are you really using the wrong BCN plates on a museum exhibit? It could be the angle of the image but they do not look like they are the correct number for Shad. Surely as a museum exhibit it is a prerequisite that any and all aspects of the display accurately depict the exhibit and do not contain errors, I know only too well how errors creep in and then get perpetuated by others.

Specsavers its LING

 

Dont understand what this means. But btw you have positioned your BCN plates in the wrong place for that era, they should be higher near the rail or just aft of the anser pins on the yellow lower panel, I have photos which show this if you need to see.

Well as Ling never had this bw livery or fleet number the plates being (in your opinion) the wrong place is of little consequence

[AMModels]

hehehe so it is, I actually looked up LING and then wondered why I had when it was Shad you were talking about, still didnt click I blame Magners rather than Specsavers

[FMC Ling 317]

hehehe so it is, I actually looked up LING and then wondered why I had when it was Shad you were talking about, still didnt click I blame Magners rather than Specsavers

LOL right number new plates as Ling's B.C.N plates like so many were collected (nice way of saying stolen as I doubt many if any were sold off legitimately with receipts of sale)

[Laurence Hogg]

 

 

" Well as Ling never had this bw livery or fleet number the plates being (in your opinion) the wrong place is of little consequence "

 

Really? Are you sure? Have you asked the former steerers? Have you tried to locate your plates?

A bit of proper research could pay off big time. Where did she spend her last working years and with whom might be a good start.

I do not have your plates or any other FMC ones apart from 1 x 1905.

[FMC Ling 317]

 

" Well as Ling never had this bw livery or fleet number the plates being (in your opinion) the wrong place is of little consequence "

 

Really? Are you sure? Have you asked the former steerers? Have you tried to locate your plates?

A bit of proper research could pay off big time. Where did she spend her last working years and with whom might be a good start.

I do not have your plates or any other FMC ones apart from 1 x 1905.

Yes REALLY!! I have spoken to former steerer's and looked at old photos and there is no evidence of this livery being used on Ling.

[AMModels]

LOL right number new plates as Ling's B.C.N plates like so many were collected (nice way of saying stolen as I doubt many if any were sold off legitimately with receipts of sale)

 

I can understand how it may seem that way these days, when this was happening tho no one knew if canals had a future, especially the ones which were underused. I know Ling from her days on the S&W and have some pics knocking about of her with the cut out of her hull for H&S. I also remember boating round the BCN when it was commonplace to see hulks lying in reed beds unloved unwanted and subject to summary destruction by BW bods.

While it would be great for all the plates which are out there to be put back on the boats they came from it isnt as simple as to say they were stolen, most of the plates in existence probably came from boats which were chopped up and scrapped, no one wants these plates for their boat and as such they have no intrinsic value beyond that of collectors; just because a boat no longer exists should that mean those plates which have been collected in the same manner should be returned and if so who to?

I know a large number of collectors were honest enthusiasts who took the plates because BW and any number of other bodies had no interest at all in the plates, now because the canals have survived and grown in popularity those who own the plates should not be lambasted for it and personally, especially in Laurences case I can understand his POV, my family also lent items to a museum, those items are now missing in the ether somewhere; to the museum they are just lost exhibits to us they are heirlooms, a link to the past of my family.

If I had something the museum which has so carelessly lost my items wanted I have to say I would make sure they paid the going price for them, at least them I would feel like the museum would have a vested interest in making sure they didnt lose those items as well.

I hope you one day find your plates because as I said I do believe they should be on the boat they came from but it has to be fair to the people who saved those plates from the scrapper which in 90% of the cases that is more than likely where they would have ended up.