mooring autions

[Pilly]

There are only two boats on the Braunston moorings between the Stop House water point and the next one along.

And only 2 moorings at auction!

[Pilly]

 

 

 

And that's how easy it is to make a fictitious bid on a CRT Mooring!

 

No email verification or checks of any kind.

 

Register an account and the account is instantly live.

 

 

Hopeless!

[Peter Reed]

No such checks for me Mike.

Must be your dodgy keyboard.

[Guest]

The cheeky buggers have 'de-activated my account I've just discovered.

[MtB]

The cheeky buggers have 'de-activated my account I've just discovered.

 

I KNEW they'd have a way to peel out all those false bids.....

 

 

ISTR mine was deactivated too when I came to bid on the Enslow mooring about three years ago. Easy to fix though IIRC, fortunately, although I can't remember how.

 

 

MtB

[Guest]

I KNEW they'd have a way to peel out all those false bids.....

 

 

ISTR mine was deactivated too when I came to bid on the Enslow mooring about three years ago. Easy to fix though IIRC, fortunately, although I can't remember how.

 

 

MtB

The message gives an email contact but very strangely I can now log in again with no message having been sent.

[MtB]

So, does the team think it benfits CRT allowing false bids to push up the price, or does it damage them by false bids that win failing to complete causing loss of several months' loss of income?

 

MtB

[wrigglefingers]

So, does the team think it benfits CRT allowing false bids to push up the price, or does it damage them by false bids that win failing to complete causing loss of several months' loss of income?

 

MtB

 

Well, my gut instinct is that, given that the potential and benefit is (possibly) very clear to CRT, that they allow it to happen as it works towards establishing new 'norms' of mooring demand and cost. Now, who might be behind the unusual bidding patterns?

Edited February 1, 2014 by wrigglefingers

[alan_fincher]

I'm on the phone on an unreliable signal, and struggling to read all posts.

 

Is there actually consistent strong evidence of these dodgy bids from dodgy accounts?

 

Why would anyone do this, and to what end?

 

Except Pillings trying to make their marina look better value of course!

Edited February 1, 2014 by alan_fincher

[wrigglefingers]

I'm on the phone on an unreliable signal, and struggling to read all posts.

 

Is there actually consistent strong evidence of these dodgy bids from dodgy accounts?

 

Why would anyone do this, and to what end?

 

Except Pillings trying to make their marina look better value of course!

 

Probably not, Alan, but I do enjoy a good conspiracy theory. Anecdotal rather than evidence I'd say, but nonetheless there's been a few odd ones recently.

[alan_fincher]

 

Probably not, Alan, but I do enjoy a good conspiracy theory. Anecdotal rather than evidence I'd say, but nonetheless there's been a few odd ones recently.

 

Yes, but the "oddness" of some previous ones has been, (anecdotally again!), down to the lack of brain cells of those bidding, rather than malicious attempts to disrupt.

 

Certainly it has been claimed in some that went sky high that, (despite what's clearly explained on the screen!), people thought the price they were entering was the total they would pay for the entire 3 year contract, rather than the amount they were agreeing to pay for each of the three years!

[Starcoaster]

I'm on the phone on an unreliable signal, and struggling to read all posts.

 

Is there actually consistent strong evidence of these dodgy bids from dodgy accounts?

 

Why would anyone do this, and to what end?

 

Except Pillings trying to make their marina look better value of course!

 

 

Assuming you want to win an auction where you suspect there will be a lot of demand and it will go for a high price, you can pretty much guarantee yourself to get it at the reserve or just over as long as you are the first bidder or early on outbid someone else at a low price- and have no moral scruples.

 

1. Log in/register on the auction site with your real details, the ones you ultimately want to take the mooring under.

2. Place your bid, at the reserve price or lowest possible price. you are now the only, or high bidder.

3. Register on the site with a load of totally different and false details that you never intend to honour.

4. Make a ridiculously high bid under this fake I.D. number one, one that no genuine bidder would consider matching.

5. Register on the site again, with a second load of totally different and false details that you never intend to honour.

6. Make another ridiculously high bid under this fake I.D. number two, that just tops your fake bid number one. This is necessary, as otherwise your fake bid number one will only be counted as one degree over your genuine bid, and an unrelated and genuine bidder might come in and bid higher than your genuine bid, topping your genuine bid in the cascading list of bidders.

7. No one else genuine will bid now, as the mooring is so overpriced and they will have to pledge an unrealistically high price to top your two fake bids.

8. Auction ends: Fake bid I.D. two defaults, and CRT can do nothing as all of their details were false.

9. A couple of weeks pass, then CRT offers the mooring to Fake bid I.D. number one, which is in no way bound to take it as they were not the high bidder (meaning you can retain that fake I.D. with CRT in good standing in case you need to use it again- but it doesn't matter anyway as it is fake, and CRT can do nothing...) and so rejects the offer to take the mooring.

10. Next bidder down is your genuine bid, at the reserve or bottom price. CRT offer the mooring to you (as it says in their auction guidelines, they will keep going down the bidder list if high bidders default until someone takes it prior to relisting it) and you take it, paying the minimum amount possible for it and having locked out all of the other potential genuine bidders from having a chance at it.

 

This is of course completely skanky and morally bankrupt, but I suspect it is rife on the site.

Edited February 1, 2014 by Starcoaster

[kevinl]

Star, you evil genius

[Starcoaster]

I didn't invent it, I just sussed it!

 

I must also admit that the theory came to me when I really, really wanted a particular pricey mooring, but I couldn't bring myself to consider doing it, it just seems so wrong on every level. Which is pretty funny to me, because generally speaking I have the moral compass of a junkyard dog.

[casper ghost]

Do you need different email addresses for each bidder? I would have thought their site would flag up if an email were used twice.

Casp'

[wrigglefingers]

Do you need different email addresses for each bidder? I would have thought their site would flag up if an email were used twice.

Casp'

 

Yes but two are fake and one 'phone, one iPad and one lappy should sort the IP problem.

 

I particularly like the second fake bidder idea. That is class.

[MtB]

Do you need different email addresses for each bidder? I would have thought their site would flag up if an email were used twice.

Casp'

 

Yes Casp.

 

A touchingly naïve question

 

You can get as many anonymous email addresses as you need for purposes like this at hotmail.co.uk, and any number of other sites.

 

MtB

[Starcoaster]

Yes, totally different details for each- name, fake address, email etc. Setting up a free email account takes seconds, and if you have a dongle for internet, chances are that every time you reboot or disconnect and reconnect, you get a new IP anyway.

 

The second fake bidder is necessary to pull off the scam- otherwise, you cannot auto-generate the bidding to a stupidly high level, and someone else real might get between your real bid and your fake bid, to be above you in the list when they offer it down after the fake defaults.

Edited February 1, 2014 by Starcoaster

[Mac of Cygnet]

I bloody well hope someone from CRT is reading this! If not, it is imperative that anyone involved in this sort of thing (I'm not) inform them.

[MtB]

I bloody well hope someone from CRT is reading this! If not, it is imperative that anyone involved in this sort of thing (I'm not) inform them.

 

I'd suggest they are perfectly aware of the fake bidder likelihood, but I doubt they've figured out how it can be used to guarantee the lowest bid wins!

 

Doesn't seem to be the scam (if there really is one) in the Batchworth auction though. Only two bidders rattled it up to over £2k before a third bidder pitched in to compete.

 

MtB

Edited February 1, 2014 by Mike the Boilerman

[Starcoaster]

They must surely know- how could they not? They are the ones that set it up knowing that any Joe Bloggs and his imaginary friend can register with false details!

**Expect a Narrowboat World exclusive on this subject in 3... 2... 1... **

[MtB]

They must surely know- how could they not? They are the ones that set it up knowing that any Joe Bloggs and his imaginary friend can register with false details!

 

Quite.

 

Programmers who spent months developing the system know far better than any on us lot what the weaknesses are, and why they are still there.

 

MtB

[nomad - tuttle hill]

we have two moorings at br24 Nuneaton - tuttle hill Coventry canal. we won one on the bid £320 per year after the third year £620 .

 

there are three places now and not been on the bid, been told by crt that on line mooring must be cut for the new local marine at mkt Bosworth !

[Pilly]

 

Quite.

 

Programmers who spent months developing the system know far better than any on us lot what the weaknesses are, and why they are still there.

 

MtB

The structure and scripting of that web site is too poor to be designed, it's just sloppy, and that's a poor designer.

 

No user validation, no encryption to protect identities and personal details, it's no wonder the site has been compromised. What is amazing is how long it took to discover the vulnerabilities. There is even a SQL injection vulnerability, but I will say nothing more of that. What is very clear to me is that CRT need a new IT professional, hence the deletion of my account.

 

I think sometimes it's okay to be a bit cynical ...there was just something about the mooring prices that set alarm bells ringing.

[alan_fincher]

 

Assuming you want to win an auction where you suspect there will be a lot of demand and it will go for a high price, you can pretty much guarantee yourself to get it at the reserve or just over as long as you are the first bidder or early on outbid someone else at a low price- and have no moral scruples.

 

1. Log in/register on the auction site with your real details, the ones you ultimately want to take the mooring under.

2. Place your bid, at the reserve price or lowest possible price. you are now the only, or high bidder.

3. Register on the site with a load of totally different and false details that you never intend to honour.

4. Make a ridiculously high bid under this fake I.D. number one, one that no genuine bidder would consider matching.

5. Register on the site again, with a second load of totally different and false details that you never intend to honour.

6. Make another ridiculously high bid under this fake I.D. number two, that just tops your fake bid number one. This is necessary, as otherwise your fake bid number one will only be counted as one degree over your genuine bid, and an unrelated and genuine bidder might come in and bid higher than your genuine bid, topping your genuine bid in the cascading list of bidders.

7. No one else genuine will bid now, as the mooring is so overpriced and they will have to pledge an unrealistically high price to top your two fake bids.

8. Auction ends: Fake bid I.D. two defaults, and CRT can do nothing as all of their details were false.

9. A couple of weeks pass, then CRT offers the mooring to Fake bid I.D. number one, which is in no way bound to take it as they were not the high bidder (meaning you can retain that fake I.D. with CRT in good standing in case you need to use it again- but it doesn't matter anyway as it is fake, and CRT can do nothing...) and so rejects the offer to take the mooring.

10. Next bidder down is your genuine bid, at the reserve or bottom price. CRT offer the mooring to you (as it says in their auction guidelines, they will keep going down the bidder list if high bidders default until someone takes it prior to relisting it) and you take it, paying the minimum amount possible for it and having locked out all of the other potential genuine bidders from having a chance at it.

 

This is of course completely skanky and morally bankrupt, but I suspect it is rife on the site.

 

Yes,

 

That works, doesn't it!

 

Breathtakingly easy - my parents obviously brought me up far too honest, or both my boats would now be on my moorings of choice, not where they currently moor.

 

I wonder if CRT could be persuaded to give statistics about how often a mooring actually doesn't go to the highest, (or even the second highest) bidder?

 

I'm seriously tempted to raise an FOIA request on this, because I rather doubt you would get a straight answer if you just posed the question in an email.

 

Seriously we shouldn't just hypothesise about this on a forum - it needs raising formally, I believe.