C.C costings.

[nb Innisfree]

What?

 

They are going to scrap red diesel altogether?

 

Hang on, don't tell me, ummm, not another "european directive" by any chance?

 

It seems that a European directive will replace gas oil with ultra low sulphur gas oil, so that should solve the probs with Ebers etc. In fact it's probably finding it's way onto the market now.

[Lady Ga]

It seems that a European directive will replace gas oil with ultra low sulphur gas oil, so that should solve the probs with Ebers etc. In fact it's probably finding it's way onto the market now.

 

 

So will this mean that we loose discounted fuel then?

and have to pay the full on it all?

 

im thinking of not having an engine and just buying a horse instead!

that will fox em...

[wrigglefingers]

It's unlikely that 'red' diesel (or at the least the partially derogated fuel that that term suggests) will vanish - the principal use is for farm vehicles and as farmers are, by tradition, the Tory boys' biggest supporters, they are unlikely to want to cheese them off. Whether we'll be allowed to use it for heating purposes is another matter......

 

edited for reasons of style and elegance ...

Edited May 13, 2010 by wrigglefingers

[nb Innisfree]

So will this mean that we loose discounted fuel then?

and have to pay the full on it all?

 

No, that's the whole point of red diesel, it allows certain groups to have discounted diesel fuel for using in heating or businesses etc. In WW2 Churchill allowed boaters to use red diesel as they were contributing to the war effort and we have managed to hang on to that until recently. Now we can't claim discount for leisure cruising, that's all, quite reasonable IMO.

[Derek R.]

I wouldn't say it was 'reasonable' to add to the treasury coffers when it has until recently not seen to be necessary. Unfortunately, the Whitehall fist doesn't do 'reasonable', though they will use the word.

 

'Directives' - yes, you are directed to cough up. For the good of the Nation - for the good of the people.

Wait a minute - I'm people - where's my bit of 'good'? Welcome to serfdom - they say - we pay.

 

Derek

 

This is a wayterways forum, my NB don't work too well on land.

It's a matter of perception, folk will cheat at any level. My idea we would have correct spec fuel available at point of use, with the supplier getting tax rebate on all fuel registed and logged for heating only. Now, we have some missmatch of fuel, largely unsuitable for certian appliances, but paying full whack... silly.. Just a thought..

 

The red dye was introduced for identification by the Customs and Excise chappies when dipping the tanks of road vehicles on spot checks. If you got caught with red in a vehicle - you were done. Only because it carried a different tax rate. It's nothing to do with fuel specifications.

 

Derek

[Lady Ga]

No, that's the whole point of red diesel, it allows certain groups to have discounted diesel fuel for using in heating or businesses etc. In WW2 Churchill allowed boaters to use red diesel as they were contributing to the war effort and we have managed to hang on to that until recently. Now we can't claim discount for leisure cruising, that's all, quite reasonable IMO.

 

 

The thing that is sad really, is the fact that there are lots or retired people who cc who are on fixed or very low incomes, who have probably been forced off the water or at the very least forced into not boating/cruising as much as they could have, its sad when people like that have worked all their lives, paid their taxes and looked forward to retirement, to have all this extra cost forced upon them, and no doubt in some case, had their pipe dream banished, not by this country, but by our cousins in brussles.

 

 

Going back to WW2 and Churchill....Ive had a thought; maybe if we volenteered the use of our boats in these latter day war efforts we could lay claim to discounted fuel again? is it worth a punt?

[Naughty Cal]

The thing that is sad really, is the fact that there are lots or retired people who cc who are on fixed or very low incomes, who have probably been forced off the water or at the very least forced into not boating/cruising as much as they could have, its sad when people like that have worked all their lives, paid their taxes and looked forward to retirement, to have all this extra cost forced upon them, and no doubt in some case, had their pipe dream banished, not by this country, but by our cousins in brussles.

 

 

Going back to WW2 and Churchill....Ive had a thought; maybe if we volenteered the use of our boats in these latter day war efforts we could lay claim to discounted fuel again? is it worth a punt?

 

We will still have discounted fuel it will just be to a different (higher) spec.

 

They are not taking away the discounted tax rate.

[Mary 1]

Hi Everyone,

 

We have been busy picking brains and running through expected costs to continous cruise.

 

Feed back would be much appreciated.

 

All costs are based on 2 people living on a 60 foot boat. We would be cruising almost every day and I expect we would be travelling for 4 or 5 hours a day on average.

 

 

 

BW License fee(12 months) approx £700?

 

Diesle approx £300 a month?

 

Insurance(Boat and contents) approx £ 50 a month

 

Gas(cooking only) 2 bottles a year?

 

Food approx £50/60 a week

 

Moorings (2/3 months in winter time) approx £220 a month?

 

 

 

I think thats about it, unless anyone can see anything I have forgotten?

 

My Insurance is £157 a year, with Towergate Mardon, fully comp, with 7 years no claims. m

[Artimis]

It's unlikely that 'red' diesel (or at the least the partially derogated fuel that that term suggests) will vanish - the principal use is for farm vehicles and as farmers are, by tradition, the Tory boys' biggest supporters, they are unlikely to want to cheese them off. Whether we'll be allowed to use it for heating purposes is another matter......

 

edited for reasons of style and elegance ...

 

 

Its got nothing to do with farmers being tory boys at all. We have just had 13 years of crackpot lobour rule. Brown didnt ban red diesel for farmers did he?

Maybe you want to pay double for your food and we run tractors on white derv?

Dont forget, its not just tractors but crop drying, agro chemicals and fertilisers too. People who critisise farmers, always do it without thinking how well and cheaply fed they are.

[nb Innisfree]

Its got nothing to do with farmers being tory boys at all. We have just had 13 years of crackpot lobour rule. Brown didnt ban red diesel for farmers did he?

Maybe you want to pay double for your food and we run tractors on white derv?

Dont forget, its not just tractors but crop drying, agro chemicals and fertilisers too. People who critisise farmers, always do it without thinking how well and cheaply fed they are.

 

What makes you think that Labour and Conservative are not one and the same?

[Artimis]

What makes you think that Labour and Conservative are not one and the same?

 

Are you asking me?

 

I never commented either way as to the individual direction of either party. Although, It would appear the 'new labour' have taken a distinctly possitive step to the right in the last 13 years.

 

What leisure boaters might like to think about is our position re leisure fuel tax in comparrason to other EU member states.

[alan_fincher]

The thing that is sad really, is the fact that there are lots or retired people who cc who are on fixed or very low incomes, who have probably been forced off the water or at the very least forced into not boating/cruising as much as they could have, its sad when people like that have worked all their lives, paid their taxes and looked forward to retirement, to have all this extra cost forced upon them, and no doubt in some case, had their pipe dream banished, not by this country, but by our cousins in brussles.

Whilst not disputing that anybody who travels big mileages by boat in a year will have felt the pinch of having to pay full tax on "propulsion" diesel, I do wonder just how severely it affects many of the people in the categories you are describing.

 

From observation, many live-aboard boaters declare a very high percentage of their use as being "non propulsion". I have no problem with this, as, also by observation, many of them do move very little.

 

But they have not since the new arrangements came in paid any more tax on this "non propulsion" diesel, nor will they if the fuel supplied changes from the relatively high sulphur gas oil to a new low sulphur specification like white 'DERV'.

 

They only pay the extra tax on the propulsion stuff, so if they don't move large amounts, is the extra tax really likely to be the straw that breaks the camels back ?

 

I'd suggest the vast increases in the base fuel prices before tax, (which affects the large part they are declaring as "non propulsion"), probably has had the far greater impact, particularly if they heat their boat with gas oil.

 

The people who will feel the pinch more are those covering thousands of miles a year in their boats - not those only managing the "low hundreds" or less, surely ? Often it seems that by far the bigger mileages are achieved by some of us non-liveaboards!

[nb Innisfree]

Are you asking me?

 

I never commented either way as to the individual direction of either party. Although, It would appear the 'new labour' have taken a distinctly possitive step to the right in the last 13 years.

 

What leisure boaters might like to think about is our position re leisure fuel tax in comparrason to other EU member states.

 

I was just responding to your suggestion that Conservative dance to the Tory tune but Labour don't, I think they both answer to the same masters but with a slightly different rhythm! I think labour were 'got at' a long time before 13 years ago.

 

What is the difference between us and EU members?

 

 

Whilst not disputing that anybody who travels big mileages by boat in a year will have felt the pinch of having to pay full tax on "propulsion" diesel, I do wonder just how severely it affects many of the people in the categories you are describing.

 

From observation, many live-aboard boaters declare a very high percentage of their use as being "non propulsion". I have no problem with this, as, also by observation, many of them do move very little.

 

But they have not since the new arrangements came in paid any more tax on this "non propulsion" diesel, nor will they if the fuel supplied changes from the relatively high sulphur gas oil to a new low sulphur specification like white 'DERV'.

 

They only pay the extra tax on the propulsion stuff, so if they don't move large amounts, is the extra tax really likely to be the straw that breaks the camels back ?

 

I'd suggest the vast increases in the base fuel prices before tax, (which affects the large part they are declaring as "non propulsion"), probably has had the far greater impact, particularly if they heat their boat with gas oil.

 

The people who will feel the pinch more are those covering thousands of miles a year in their boats - not those only managing the "low hundreds" or less, surely ? Often it seems that by far the bigger mileages are achieved by some of us non-liveaboards!

 

As full time liveaboard ccers we pay somewhere in the region of £150 pa extra in diesel costs, based on an (honest) average of 20/80 split. Not a problem for us but could be vital for some, maybe we could reduce that to, say, £50 with minimal cruising.

[Guest]

Whilst not disputing that anybody who travels big mileages by boat in a year will have felt the pinch of having to pay full tax on "propulsion" diesel, I do wonder just how severely it affects many of the people in the categories you are describing.

 

We spent £107 on diesel in two weeks cruising the Leicester ring last month. This was cruising on average 5-7 hours per day by memory and a rough calculation - I thought that was a bit steep and that the yard had charged us top dollar - don't know out of curiosity what others think.

[nb Innisfree]

We spent £107 on diesel in two weeks cruising the Leicester ring last month. This was cruising on average 5-7 hours per day by memory and a rough calculation - I thought that was a bit steep and that the yard had charged us top dollar - don't know out of curiosity what others think.

 

I calculate about 160+ litres at full 100% cruising rate is about £180, at 60% cruising about £160.

[Guest]

I calculate about 160+ litres at full 100% cruising rate is about £180, at 60% cruising about £160.

 

So a bargain then at £107

[Artimis]

We spent £107 on diesel in two weeks cruising the Leicester ring last month. This was cruising on average 5-7 hours per day by memory and a rough calculation - I thought that was a bit steep and that the yard had charged us top dollar - don't know out of curiosity what others think.

 

Sounds like a bargain to me.

 

Try a driving holiday for 2 weeks and add up the fuel receipts. Go to France and you pay fuel tax AND toll charges on some motorways.

 

I bet that you get more miles per gallon per enjoyment than you do in a car.

 

 

I was just responding to your suggestion that Conservative dance to the Tory tune but Labour don't, I think they both answer to the same masters but with a slightly different rhythm! I think labour were 'got at' a long time before 13 years ago.

 

What is the difference between us and EU members?

 

 

 

Youve lost me now. I didnt mention the word Conservative, but even so, Conservative and Tory are the same organisation, so they do jump to their own tune, do they not?

 

Difference between us and EU members is, they get NO leisure fuel tax relief.

 

Dont complain about the little bit of tax you pay here. You have still never had it so good. The day to start complaining is when you have no option other than to use Derv.

[Guest]

Sounds like a bargain to me.

 

Try a driving holiday for 2 weeks and add up the fuel receipts. Go to France and you pay fuel tax AND toll charges on some motorways.

 

I bet that you get more miles per gallon per enjoyment than you do in a car.

 

Seems it - I just was a bit surprised, I guess because two weeks is the longest we've ever spent on a boat and we've always been 'in credit' with our fuel deposits before and the yard has normally paid us back the balance. Napton did give me a free mug because I'd had to pay them and additional £7 for my diesel at the end of our holiday!!!

 

and as for France - well we are going there in a couple of months - you don't have to use the toll roads of course but when you do they are way better than our motorways - BUT as you say no where near as much fun as cruising......

[nb Innisfree]

[quote name='Artimis' date='May 16 2010, 10:48 AM' post='529670'

 

Youve lost me now. I didnt mention the word Conservative, but even so, Conservative and Tory are the same organisation, so they do jump to their own tune, do they not?

 

Difference between us and EU members is, they get NO leisure fuel tax relief.

 

Dont complain about the little bit of tax you pay here. You have still never had it so good. The day to start complaining is when you have no option other than to use Derv.

 

I was suggesting that both parties (or all three) answer to a higher authority and therefore don't really dance to their own tune.

 

I didn't realise other EU members didn't get tax relief on non propulsion fuel.

 

Actually I am quite happy with our present tax arrangement

[Derek R.]

name='nb Innisfree' date='May 16 2010, 11:00 AM' post='529675']

 

I was suggesting that both parties (or all three) answer to a higher authority and therefore don't really dance to their own tune.

 

I didn't realise other EU members didn't get tax relief on non propulsion fuel.

 

Actually I am quite happy with our present tax arrangement

 

I hope I have got the quotation correct.

The first line I will agree with, the second I cannot comment on, though until fairly recently Gazole (diesel) in France for road vehicles was considerably cheaper that Essence (petrol). Up went the price (in terms of taxation) and up went the price of all commodities transported by road!

 

The last - Gawp! In excess of 70% of road fuel costs is taxation. We even pay a tax on the tax - VAT on top of fuel tax. I'm not at all happy with that, and if there are other countries where such taxes and costings are higher - I sympathise, but do not wish to join them. It was neither Labour nor Conservative governments that removed the derogation of marine fuel for pleasure use - it was a directive from the EU. Our government is subservient to the closed doors of a foreign power.

 

Steering back to fuel specifications, the following links may be of some interest:

Diesel Fuel Basics Non scientific in presentation, and recommended.

Fuel Oils UK spec. sheets

ASTM That's: American Standards for Testing Materials. Look at the abstract - Note the number of grades and their specific uses. Seven in all, though from a practical point of view - two basic.

Caterpillar have a good pdf on fuel spec. requirements, but their webpage is giving me grief. Their opinion on Biodiesel is very low. If you can suffer the html version with highlighting, try HERE.

 

Derek

[nb Innisfree]

I hope I have got the quotation correct.

The first line I will agree with, the second I cannot comment on, though until fairly recently Gazole (diesel) in France for road vehicles was considerably cheaper that Essence (petrol). Up went the price (in terms of taxation) and up went the price of all commodities transported by road!

 

The last - Gawp! In excess of 70% of road fuel costs is taxation. We even pay a tax on the tax - VAT on top of fuel tax. I'm not at all happy with that, and if there are other countries where such taxes and costings are higher - I sympathise, but do not wish to join them. It was neither Labour nor Conservative governments that removed the derogation of marine fuel for pleasure use - it was a directive from the EU. Our government is subservient to the closed doors of a foreign power.

 

Derek

 

I should have said I was happy with self declaration not tax rate

[Derek R.]

Ah - yes! Of the three available options, that was the least obnoxious.

[Lady Ga]

We spent £107 on diesel in two weeks cruising the Leicester ring last month. This was cruising on average 5-7 hours per day by memory and a rough calculation - I thought that was a bit steep and that the yard had charged us top dollar - don't know out of curiosity what others think.

 

 

umm, did u buy this diesle derclaring it as 100% for cruising or was there a split?

 

but yeh, Im calculating its probably going to cost £50 or £60 a week to go out for the summer, cruising 5-7 hours a day, oh deary me, im confused now....

am I right with my costings? its important I get this somewhere near right here... Ive already had one costing Im wrong about, which was the food bill... now I estimated we spend about £50 a week on food, so I saved all my receipts this last week and I've now discovered we spent £120!!!!!!!! in a week, it adds up spending £18 here and £18 there over a week, doesn't look much in your minds eye till you actually save all your receipts then add the lot up...

 

[nb Innisfree]

umm, did u buy this diesle derclaring it as 100% for cruising or was there a split?

 

but yeh, Im calculating its probably going to cost £50 or £60 a week to go out for the summer, cruising 5-7 hours a day, oh deary me, im confused now....

am I right with my costings? its important I get this somewhere near right here... Ive already had one costing Im wrong about, which was the food bill... now I estimated we spend about £50 a week on food, so I saved all my receipts this last week and I've now discovered we spent £120!!!!!!!! in a week, it adds up spending £18 here and £18 there over a week, doesn't look much in your minds eye till you actually save all your receipts then add the lot up...

 

 

As you can see trying to calculate costs is a pretty much inaccurate exercise, that's why building projects etc always go over budget. In our experience I would say £5000 pa will cover running costs including DIY servicing, blacking and replacement batteries, it does for us. Food, clothing and spending money etc will be extra.

[sueb]

umm, did u buy this diesle derclaring it as 100% for cruising or was there a split?

 

but yeh, Im calculating its probably going to cost £50 or £60 a week to go out for the summer, cruising 5-7 hours a day, oh deary me, im confused now....

am I right with my costings? its important I get this somewhere near right here... Ive already had one costing Im wrong about, which was the food bill... now I estimated we spend about £50 a week on food, so I saved all my receipts this last week and I've now discovered we spent £120!!!!!!!! in a week, it adds up spending £18 here and £18 there over a week, doesn't look much in your minds eye till you actually save all your receipts then add the lot up...

 

I use a Money programme. It soon lets you know where your money is going and what you can save on.

Sue