Business Opportunity?

[Brad Naylor]

I run a small cabinetmaking firm with a business partner and fellow cabinetmaker. Following his divorce he has bought a sailaway narrowboat and is in the process of fitting it out in order to live on it.

 

I too, have long had an interest in canals and narrowboats, although I have never owned one.

 

We are wondering if there would be any future in branching out into fitting out narrowboats as an extension of our existing business doing kitchens and bedrooms etc. We have a large secure yard available at the rear of our premises where we could work on several boats at once, although we are several miles from a canal!

 

Our inclination is that there is good money to be made from buying in sailaways, doing a quality fit-out, and then selling on the open market.

 

Or would we be better looking for commissions?

 

Or refits?

 

Or sticking with kitchens and bedrooms?!

[NB Willawaw]

My advice would be to seek commissions.

Buying a sailaway, fitting it out and then trying to sell it is very risky.

Its also not good for your cash flow and then there is a lot of variation with bespoke boats, so

the chances of the boat that you build meeting the customer requirements are also quite risky,

so you might have to do a lot of rework.

 

The fact that your yard is not close to the canals is not a problem as most owners wont mind the shell

being delivered to your premises and then going from there to be launched. As long as it is only a few miles and you are

not located in Arbroath.

However, you either have to do the whole fit-out or if you only want to specialise only in the woodwork, be prepared to travel to the boat.

Most owners will object to having to have the boat trucked from shell builder to general fitter-out and then

again to your premises for carpentry as trucking narrowboats around the country is expensive.

 

There is a lot of competition out there, but there are also quite a few cowboys.

 

Your challenge is to convince customers that you are good at what you do and reliable.

 

If you decide to go ahead with the venture, the best thing would be to put everything that you want to sell on your partners boat and use it as a demonstration of your abilities. Remember that most propspective owners knowledge of cabinet-making is limited so don't expect them to appreciate fancy joints - nice lines and choices of wood will be far more readily appreciated and therefore win commissions.

 

Good luck..

Edited July 22, 2007 by NB Willawaw

[Brad Naylor]

Thanks Mark,

 

We would be planning on doing the whole fit-out, bringing in sub-contractors for the plumbing, electrics, gas etc, so multiple transportation would not be a problem.

 

We're located in the Manchester area so have plenty of easy access to canals!

 

I agree with you that the design and choice of materials is far more important than the technical details of the cabinet work. It is no different in our normal work designing and building kitchens. I see so many poor examples of interior design when I look at narrowboats and know we could do a lot better.

 

I remember seeing a post from Gary Peacock a few months ago where he said that if he were starting out again he'd just do 2 or 3 high-end fit-outs a year from cheap premises.

 

The cost of our premises is already covered by our existing business so I guess that this is what we have in mind.

 

 

Cheers

Brad

Edited July 22, 2007 by Brad Naylor

[bottle]

Hi Brad

 

I am known to be a pessimist.

 

Just a first thought, do you have access for a flatbed 'artic' and a 30/40 ton crane, if this is possible how will you move the boat around the yard into the workshop. (rhetorical, they weigh around twenty tons)

 

The time scale of fitting out the boat: I am having one fitted out and it will take three to four months, this will be by a company that has been doing it for ten years and work on two to three boats at a time. (difficult for two people to work in the same area at the same time).

 

I wish you good luck, if you decide to go ahead, without trying to teach you to suck eggs don't let your existing company suffer.

 

I would think that the 'kitchen business' is safer.

[Gary Peacock]

Probably would have been a lot better proposition a few years back.

 

Still feasible now but I would stay away from narrowboats and look towards something bigger where the chances of it being profitable are better.

[Tony Brooks]

I run a small cabinetmaking firm with a business partner and fellow cabinetmaker. Following his divorce he has bought a sailaway narrowboat and is in the process of fitting it out in order to live on it.

 

I too, have long had an interest in canals and narrowboats, although I have never owned one.

 

We are wondering if there would be any future in branching out into fitting out narrowboats as an extension of our existing business doing kitchens and bedrooms etc. We have a large secure yard available at the rear of our premises where we could work on several boats at once, although we are several miles from a canal!

 

Our inclination is that there is good money to be made from buying in sailaways, doing a quality fit-out, and then selling on the open market.

 

Or would we be better looking for commissions?

 

Or refits?

 

Or sticking with kitchens and bedrooms?!

 

 

What do you know about the Recreational Craft Directive?

 

If any are new boats I think the RCD will cause you extra work or at least payments to someone else to produce the documents etc.

 

I susepct you may find this difficult at first.

 

Tony Brooks

[Rob@BSSOffice]

Our inclination is that there is good money to be made from buying in sailaways, doing a quality fit-out, and then selling on the open market.

Or would we be better looking for commissions?

Or refits?

Or sticking with kitchens and bedrooms?!

 

With reference to Tony and Gary here previously, If you have not already done so, seek the advice of the British Marine Federation and get a clear understanding of the laws, regulations and professional liabilities. The BMF might also be able to help a member out with 'some' level of market intelligence, which would help them weigh up their options. be clear about the trades you might have to bring in and the competencies they must, or are best holding.

 

If re-fitting, understand the BSS requirements and the concepts at their core very well. This will avoid problems in the future.

regards

Rob

[bargeeboy]

We are wondering if there would be any future in branching out into fitting out narrowboats as an extension of our existing business doing kitchens and bedrooms etc. We have a large secure yard available at the rear of our premises where we could work on several boats at once, although we are several miles from a canal!

 

Our inclination is that there is good money to be made from buying in sailaways, doing a quality fit-out, and then selling on the open market.

REMEMBER

 

If it was easy everybody would be doing it !

[charles123]

As a variation on this theme I suggest you start with a project boat ie one that is sound, has nice lines and refit it/update it/repaint it. You should produce the same profit for a lot less work and money laid out

 

Charles

[John Orentas]

Hi Brad.

 

I would suggest that you use your cabinet making skills to offer bespoke narrowboat furniture supply. What is generally on offer now is a fairly poor standard. In this way you can keep the business as a workshop based manufacturing operation with just a travelling measuring up service.

[PaulW]

Hi Brad

 

I have done exactly what you are thinking about. We have a small property renovation company and decided to have a go at boat fitout about 9 months ago, having owned boats for many years. Our first spec boat will go on the market shortly. We decided to go for a fitout using higher end, quality materials (solid oak trims, more expensive power systems, bigger engine etc). Our first boat is a 58ft cruiser and is likely to be priced around the £60 - £70k range. This puts it in competiton with the cheaper end builds but with a far higher fit-out quaility. (you can see her at suffolknarrowboats.co.uk). The problems we will have (and all new builders) is that we are not tried and tested so getting that first sale may be an uphill struggle.

 

Your first strategy should be to look at the costs you will incur and do a realistic business plan. Identify the sub-contracting costs as these can be expensive. There are lots of new builds around at a price in the range £55k - £65k so look at the competition and see if you can match it. Our strategy was to use a quality hull as this sets it apart from the competion. We have the benefit of in-house technical ability so that enables us to keep the cost base down.

 

Best of luck, its hard work.

Paul

[David Schweizer]

Quite frankly Brad, if you and your colleage are trained Cabinet Makers, I cannot for the life of me think why you are looking for work. Around where I live, trained Cabinet Makers are very much sought after. Locally I know three small cabinet making set ups, and they all have at least a years order book. One partnership (two brothers) have so much work that they cannot take on any more commissions for at least four years

 

This is all a bit upsetting for me as I wanted to be a Cabinet Maker, and did several years at Technical School training under a Master Cabinet Maker. But there were no jobs in the early 1960's so I went into engineering instead, (and look what has happened to that industry now) Having said that I am pleased that there has been in recent increase in the demand for Skilled Craftsmen.

[carlt]

Quite frankly Brad, if you and your colleage are trained Cabinet Makers, I cannot for the life of me think why you are looking for work. Around where I live, trained Cabinet Makers are very much sought after. Locally I know three small cabinet making set ups, and they all have at least a years order book. One partnership (two brothers) have so much work that they cannot take on any more commissions for at least four years

 

This is all a bit upsetting for me as I wanted to be a Cabinet Maker, and did several years at Technical School training under a Master Cabinet Maker. But there were no jobs in the early 1960's so I went into engineering instead, (and look what has happened to that industry now) Having said that I am pleased that there has been in recent increase in the demand for Skilled Craftsmen.

Whilst there's plenty of employed work out there for cabinet makers, it's quite difficult to establish yourself in the trade.

Having worked for a number of, so-called, cabinet makers in the past, they may be flooded with work but the quality was appalling.

I even spent a very brief spell, at £18 per hour, feeding lengths of beech through a spindle moulder, making door frames for Wickes. After an hour I resigned, explaining to the boss that he should be employing agency staff at £6 an hour, not me. His reply was that the agency charge £18 an hour so he'd rather give it to someone who knew what they were doing. I believe he is no longer in business!

[David Schweizer]

Whilst there's plenty of employed work out there for cabinet makers, it's quite difficult to establish yourself in the trade.Having worked for a number of, so-called, cabinet makers in the past, they may be flooded with work but the quality was appalling.

I agree with you Carl, and a lot of them are fitting out boats, with rubbish timber, no proper joints, and glued on Mouldings. But the people I know are skilled craftsmen. The two brothers I mentioned specialize in making huge Banquet tables and chairs from solid rosewood, carved Cabrioil legs and everything. They are progressively suppling most of the Saudi Royal family, and all from a little workshop in the Wiltshire countryside.

 

I even spent a very brief spell, at £18 per hour, feeding lengths of beech through a spindle moulder, making door frames for Wickes. After an hour I resigned, explaining to the boss that he should be employing agency staff at £6 an hour, not me. His reply was that the agency charge £18 an hour so he'd rather give it to someone who knew what they were doing. I believe he is no longer in business!

I have never used a spindle moulder in my life, I was trained to use Wooden Moulding Planes, and that is what I still use, although I do occassionally get a router out for very long runs.

Edited July 24, 2007 by David Schweizer

[Brad Naylor]

Quite frankly Brad, if you and your colleage are trained Cabinet Makers, I cannot for the life of me think why you are looking for work.

 

 

We're not! We've just closed our order book for Christmas.

 

No, the narrowboats idea would be a new venture, purely because we both like narrowboats! I'm sure we could make more money by devoloping the handmade kitchens business, but to be honest we're getting a bit sick of that. We are probably guilty of letting our hearts rule our heads but hey, life's too short...

 

What we'll probably do to start with is buy a shell and start fitting it out in our spare time. Then we'll either sell it or I'll have it!

 

Cheers

Brad

[Brad Naylor]

Hi Brad

 

I have done exactly what you are thinking about. We have a small property renovation company and decided to have a go at boat fitout about 9 months ago, having owned boats for many years. Our first spec boat will go on the market shortly. We decided to go for a fitout using higher end, quality materials (solid oak trims, more expensive power systems, bigger engine etc). Our first boat is a 58ft cruiser and is likely to be priced around the £60 - £70k range. This puts it in competiton with the cheaper end builds but with a far higher fit-out quaility. (you can see her at suffolknarrowboats.co.uk). The problems we will have (and all new builders) is that we are not tried and tested so getting that first sale may be an uphill struggle.

 

Your first strategy should be to look at the costs you will incur and do a realistic business plan. Identify the sub-contracting costs as these can be expensive. There are lots of new builds around at a price in the range £55k - £65k so look at the competition and see if you can match it. Our strategy was to use a quality hull as this sets it apart from the competion. We have the benefit of in-house technical ability so that enables us to keep the cost base down.

 

Best of luck, its hard work.

Paul

 

Hi Paul,

 

I've just had a look at your website Suffolk Narrowboats and you seem to be doing pretty well exactly what we've got in mind!

 

Your price seems very reasonable for a quality job. I'd be very interested to see how sales go!

 

Cheers

Brad

[Tiller Slave]

Narrowboat fit out is a very crowded market!

 

Many punters buy solely on price NOT quality.

 

To appeal to quality end of the market you need a reputation- chicken and egg situation.

 

Speak to the Canal Boatbuilders Association for more information: http://www.c-b-a.co.uk/