Newage PRM 160VR2 rear oil seal

[Mikexx]

The rear oil seal has a slight weep, and since I'm tidying up the engine it seems appropriate to change this seal.

I can add photos if need be, but I'm hoping that some here will know the gearbox well enough to recommend where to get a seal and how to replace it.

The seal is held by a carrier, but unfortunately one bolt is covered by another protruding housing. If I remove the seal housing I need to remove this as well.

I'm not sure what this involves and not confident on pressing in a seal in situ. 

If removing both housing the preferred method then I might need new gaskets for both of these.

Any suggestions?

 

[RLWP]

The manual is here: http://www.prm-newage.com/media/File/101 & 160 man.pdf

Basically, you remove the gearbox, take off the top cover, lift out the forward and reverse assemblies, dismantle the output shaft to pull it out the back of the box - then unbolt the seal carrier and replace the seal

I'd put up with the leak if I were you

Richard

MORE: Hang on, you might be lucky. Unbolt the prop shaft, undo the nut that holds the output flange on, drive off the output flange, unbolt the carrier and change the seal. The 160 has a separate flange

Edited April 10, 2018 by RLWP

[Boater Sam]

"MORE: Hang on, you might be lucky. Unbolt the prop shaft, undo the nut that holds the output flange on, drive off the output flange, unbolt the carrier and change the seal. The 160 has a separate flange"

Correct, but the other housing referred to is the hydraulic pump which also needs to be remover for access. Beware, the pump will fit both ways, ensure you fit it the same way round.

The hard part is removing the nut in the centre of the output flange, and tightening it up again.

Parts are available from Newage or many stockists, but the seal is a standard lip seal available from Bearing Services and other bearing suppliers.

Edited April 10, 2018 by Boater Sam

[RLWP]

1 minute ago, Boater Sam said:

"MORE: Hang on, you might be lucky. Unbolt the prop shaft, undo the nut that holds the output flange on, drive off the output flange, unbolt the carrier and change the seal. The 160 has a separate flange"

Correct, but the other housing referred to is the hydraulic pump which also needs to be remover for access. Beware, the pump will fit both ways, ensure you fit it the same way round.

The hard part is removing the nut in the centre of the output flange, and tightening it up again.

I'd say someone who is hesitant about replacing the seal is very unlikely to be attempting to remove that nut

This is the seal: https://www.asap-supplies.com/engine-spares-gearboxes/marine-gearboxes-and-spares/marine-gearbox-spares/prm-mt349-oil-seal

The pump and the carrier have an O ring sealing them to the body. They are in the joint set: https://www.asap-supplies.com/engine-spares-gearboxes/marine-gearboxes-and-spares/marine-gearbox-spares/prm-seal-gasket-and-o-ring-kit-prm-100-to-260. If you are careful you can reuse what you have

Richard

[Mikexx]

44 minutes ago, RLWP said:

I'd say someone who is hesitant about replacing the seal is very unlikely to be attempting to remove that nut

This is the seal: https://www.asap-supplies.com/engine-spares-gearboxes/marine-gearboxes-and-spares/marine-gearbox-spares/prm-mt349-oil-seal

The pump and the carrier have an O ring sealing them to the body. They are in the joint set: https://www.asap-supplies.com/engine-spares-gearboxes/marine-gearboxes-and-spares/marine-gearbox-spares/prm-seal-gasket-and-o-ring-kit-prm-100-to-260. If you are careful you can reuse what you have

Richard

First of all, many thanks for all the replies.

I have a 3/4" socket set so I should be able to make it move, assuming I can lock the flange using bolts and a lever/bar.

The joint set isn't cheap, but it might be a worthwhile investment!

In the past I have fished out seals and replaced in situ, but I don't feel it's ideal, nor is it easy to drive in a seal squarely. I'll take a measurement and see what I have at hand. I have a lathe so I might be able to turn something to suit.

[RLWP]

You'll find the seal sits flush with the face of the carrier, so it's pretty easy to install

Richard 

[Mikexx]

The nut moved!

The bolt I used to lock the flange wasn't so lucky.

The seal came out quite easily with a screwdriver, worryingly so. I'll be using some sealant to make sure the new one is better retained.

I'm also going to polish the flange sealing surface as it has some crud; I'm concerned might damage the new seal.

Many thanks for the help.

[RLWP]

Well done, that man!

[Mikexx]

3 hours ago, RLWP said:

Well done, that man!

Many thanks.

I used stainless steel wool to polish the surface the seal will contact and this is pretty much as good as I can get.

I'm reluctant to turn down to provide a smooth surface. I would have to use a 4 jaw chuck and would take ages to centre, plus reducing the diameter.

[Boater Sam]

That corrosion suggests that it has been in water or that there is water in the oil.

If you lap it with fine emery paper and set the seal to run on the best part of the flange  it should be fine. Thoroughly clean the surface with wire wool after the emery, it leaves particles in the steel that will wear the seal prematurely.

Check that there is no water in the oil, the PRM160 boxes have paper lined clutches and water destroys them, the later 260 have phosphor bronze cones.

[Tony Brooks]

 

Deleted because I misread the  reply.

Edited April 11, 2018 by Tony Brooks

[Mikexx]

1 hour ago, Boater Sam said:

That corrosion suggests that it has been in water or that there is water in the oil.

If you lap it with fine emery paper and set the seal to run on the best part of the flange  it should be fine. Thoroughly clean the surface with wire wool after the emery, it leaves particles in the steel that will wear the seal prematurely.

Check that there is no water in the oil, the PRM160 boxes have paper lined clutches and water destroys them, the later 260 have phosphor bronze cones.

I forgot to say that the oil had a slight mayonnaise appearance, something I was going to mention but forgot in an earlier post. It is now drained but conscious the oil pump etc will still hold some old oil.

I will of course use new clean oil.

Thanks for the idea, I'm a little concerned the pits are moderately deep.

[RLWP]

If you are really worried, best thing is to fit a sleeve

https://simplybearings.co.uk/shop/Products-Speedi+Sleeves/c4747_5335/index.html

Richard

 

[Boater Sam]

Ensure that the heat exchanger is drained of contaminated oil too, BUT most important, is the heat exchanger the cause of water in the oil? The oil in the heat exchanger is at a higher pressure relative to the cooling water pressure so it is more likely that you would get oil in the water rather than water in the oil, but its worth checking.

As I said, water in a 160 box is serious.

I would not worry too much about the pitting, just lap it well with emery or wet and dry, seen a lot worse and without leaking.

[Mikexx]

3 hours ago, RLWP said:

If you are really worried, best thing is to fit a sleeve

https://simplybearings.co.uk/shop/Products-Speedi+Sleeves/c4747_5335/index.html

Richard

 

Many thanks.

I recall a post a while ago repairing a cracked pulley using such a sleeve. I'll bear the source of a sleeve in mind. A seal is quite cheap and I suspect the old seal has lasted a very long time. At this instance I think I will replace the seal and see how things go.

 

23 minutes ago, Boater Sam said:

Ensure that the heat exchanger is drained of contaminated oil too, BUT most important, is the heat exchanger the cause of water in the oil? The oil in the heat exchanger is at a higher pressure relative to the cooling water pressure so it is more likely that you would get oil in the water rather than water in the oil, but its worth checking.

As I said, water in a 160 box is serious.

I would not worry too much about the pitting, just lap it well with emery or wet and dry, seen a lot worse and without leaking.

I had considered issues with the heat exchanger but I assumed the issue would be an obvious case of oil in water. Thanks for the idea, I will loosen the couplings with a view to oil draining into the gearbox sump.

A year or more ago the gearbox was submerged, where I drained and refilled the oil. At the time there was no obvious water in the oil. I guess with use any small pocket of water would mix.

I also though even mineral oils would have detergents and anti-corrosive additives. I believed a little water can make a lot of mayonnaise?

I'll smooth down the flange seal surface a little more with emery or similar.

[RLWP]

6 minutes ago, Mikexx said:

Many thanks.

I recall a post a while ago repairing a cracked pulley using such a sleeve. I'll bear the source of a sleeve in mind. A seal is quite cheap and I suspect the old seal has lasted a very long time. At this instance I think I will replace the seal and see how things go.

I posted something about BMC timing pulleys

[Mikexx]

Some emery and wire wool later!

The seal was straighforward to fit. Driving flanged fitted and toqued up.

Thanks for the help.

[RLWP]

That has come up very nicely

[Mikexx]

On 14/04/2018 at 23:10, RLWP said:

That has come up very nicely

 

Thanks, all back together.

The seal was easy to put in using some large water pipe fittings of the right diameter, using reducers to clear the shaft with careful use of a lump hammer.

[Boater Sam]

Nice job, well done.

[Annabelle May Boater]

This has been a really helpful thread.  I too had a weep from the output flange oil seal and was successful in replacing it.

 

If it helps, the oil seal is a R23 type (seal with wiper) and its metric size is 54 x 70 x 10 (the is internal diameter 54mm, Outer diameter 70mm and width 10mm).

 

The seal pack for the PRM gearboxes from ASAP-Supplies provides this seal (MT349) but it also provides the 'o' ring which fits over the shaft and inside the output flange.

 

In order to remove the nut (30mm socket works) from the end of the output shaft, I bought a 1m length of 30mm x 30mm angle iron and drilled 2 x 10mm holes with centres 76.3mm apart toward the end of one of the flats.  This I then bolted through 2 of the holes in the output flange, giving me a lever to work against.  This lever would be needed again to torque the nut back up to 162.7nm.

 

I went a step further to ensure I could fit the MT349 seal at the correct point (just inside the chamfer of the retaining plate), I removed the plate which holds the output shaft bearing.  This first required removal of the gearbox oil pump, the 3 seals (O-rings) inside the oil pump are also in the ASAP-Supplies kit.  Be aware that the output shaft and thrust bearing will start to slide out when this retaining plate is removed.  Having removed the plate which holds the oil seal, it was much easier to fit the oil seal to the plate in the workshop.

 

To use the famous words of a well known car maintenance manual - refitting is the reverse of removal.

 

With thanks to those who have posted above, this job did turn out to be fairly straightforward.