Tripping the mains

[NBDensie]

People kindly gave me advice with an alternator problem a couple of weeks ago. Some collective wisdom on this one would be much appreciated............

 

When we hook our boat upto the land power supply the land supply trips. This can happen immediately or after up to one hour. In the latter case if we reset everything and try again, the cut-out is immediate. Also when we try a second time the next level up often trips (eg the marina, which endears us to our neighbours).

 

The external power supply is fed into a Victron Phoenix Multiplus 1200 which distributes the AC, converts to DC and manages landline based battery recharging. It also supplies 240V Ac if the landline is not present.

 

Apart from battery recharging, the only use of the landline power was to a 240V fridge and an automatic bilge pump which did not (and has never) switch(ed) on.

 

The symptoms have been repeated in 2 marinas (one with a 10amp breaker and the other with 16amp) with identical results. We have also repeated the tests using a different power cable.

 

If we take power purely from the batteries eg whilst cruising, we have no problems at all.

 

Thanks for any thoughts. Our boatyard has not been able to come up with any explanation and is now proposing to replace the Victron. However I would be happier if

there was a convincing explanation of what could be going wrong.

[Gary Peacock]

Have a look inside the shoreline inlet socket to see if it's full of water or corrosion.

 

If the fault is downstream from the inverter you would expect the the boats own RCD to trip.

 

It is very rare to get a problem with the Victron kit so the shoreline socket sounds a good place to start.

Edited July 9, 2007 by Gary Peacock

[Bullfrog]

Or the shore line itself?

[bottle]

If you were not overloading the shore supply and had the same results at different marina with different leads.

 

Check the plug on the boat (the one where the landline connects to the boat) and check also the cable from that connects the Victron.

 

You are looking for water ingress (dampness), loose connections and/or corrosion.

[smileypete]

People kindly gave me advice with an alternator problem a couple of weeks ago. Some collective wisdom on this one would be much appreciated............

 

When we hook our boat upto the land power supply the land supply trips. This can happen immediately or after up to one hour. In the latter case if we reset everything and try again, the cut-out is immediate. Also when we try a second time the next level up often trips (eg the marina, which endears us to our neighbours).

When you say the supply trips, do you mean the RCD (detects leakage to earth, has a test button right next to the switch) or the MCB (detects overload, no test button next to it)?

 

Does it still trip when the fridge etc everything are unplugged (not just switched off) so that only the Victron is connected to the shoreline?

 

cheers,

Pete.

Edited July 9, 2007 by smileypete

[mayalld]

People kindly gave me advice with an alternator problem a couple of weeks ago. Some collective wisdom on this one would be much appreciated............

 

When we hook our boat upto the land power supply the land supply trips. This can happen immediately or after up to one hour. In the latter case if we reset everything and try again, the cut-out is immediate. Also when we try a second time the next level up often trips (eg the marina, which endears us to our neighbours).

 

The external power supply is fed into a Victron Phoenix Multiplus 1200 which distributes the AC, converts to DC and manages landline based battery recharging. It also supplies 240V Ac if the landline is not present.

 

Apart from battery recharging, the only use of the landline power was to a 240V fridge and an automatic bilge pump which did not (and has never) switch(ed) on.

 

The symptoms have been repeated in 2 marinas (one with a 10amp breaker and the other with 16amp) with identical results. We have also repeated the tests using a different power cable.

 

If we take power purely from the batteries eg whilst cruising, we have no problems at all.

 

Thanks for any thoughts. Our boatyard has not been able to come up with any explanation and is now proposing to replace the Victron. However I would be happier if

there was a convincing explanation of what could be going wrong.

 

This points very firmly to a short on the input side, somewhere between the shore socket, and the input side of the Victron, or in the Victron charger circuit.

 

As a first step, replace the cable from the shore line to the input side of the victron, and see if it fixes the problem.

[Dave-Shrop]

This is almost certainly earth leakage current either from live or the neutral tripping it. You need to check all wiring, could be just damp where it is tracking. The circuit should be tested with a meggar and a reading of over 5 mohms is required. Do not meggar the inverter this must be disconnected. Even though the automatic bilge pump has not operated it is still connected and can pass the earth leakage current. A damp path of 500 ohms would be enough to trip. You need to diconnect each part of the circuit to locate the fault. A good electrician would find the fault in 30 minutes. What is often not realised is that a fault on the neutral (shorting to earth) will cause a trip even if all switches which are in the live conductor are off.

 

David

[DHutch]

Or the shore line itself?

Although they did say they have had the same problem at two marinas.

 

As a first step, replace the cable from the shore line to the input side of the victron, and see if it fixes the problem.

And two diffrent cables.

 

 

 

 

However as pete says, if you know if its the RCD (residualcurrent/earthleakage device), or the MCB (mini cirucuit breaker) taht would be usfull.

 

Who did the wiring for the boat? If its relativley new, can you maybe contact them and as for it to be rectified.

 

Alternativly as mentioned above, unplug as much as you can, and see if it re-occurs.

 

Its also worth noting that there is a reason these devices are present (and tripping?) and if there is a realy fault you must take care not to risk harming youself of others. See this thread. http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php...ic=9527&hl=

 

 

Daniel

[mayalld]

Although they did say they have had the same problem at two marinas.

 

And two diffrent cables.

 

Ah, I haven't been fully clear here.

 

I wasn't talking about the shore line itself.

 

I was refering to the on-board wiring that leads from the shoreline connector on the boat, to the inverter input (and come to think of it to the connector itself)

 

This is the only common element that is always in use when the trips occur, and always not in use when they don't

[blackrose]

Would it be worth going around the boat with a mains socket tester?

 

http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?Module...socket%20tester

[bottle]

Ah, I haven't been fully clear here.

 

I wasn't talking about the shore line itself.

 

I was refering to the on-board wiring that leads from the shoreline connector on the boat, to the inverter input (and come to think of it to the connector itself)

 

This is the only common element that is always in use when the trips occur, and always not in use when they don't

 

 

See post #4

[smileypete]

Hi,

 

Maybe the boatyard could bypass the Victron with one or two junction boxes, and see if that cures the problem.

 

It's quite a big unit so would be a lot of hassle to return if there was nothing wrong with it in the end.

 

If the boatyard don't have an explanation then they probably don't know themselves where the fault is, and are guessing!

 

Maybe there is an experienced marine electrics engineer local to you who could give a second opinion.

 

cheers,

Pete.

Edited July 10, 2007 by smileypete

[NBDensie]

Many thanks for all your responses. To clarify some points......

 

1) RCD or MCB

 

MCB I think - there are no test switches. It appears to be the normal kit marinas have in the power supply posts next to moorings.

 

2) Corrosion

 

The boat is one year old. There are no signs of any corrosion. Of course there could be water getting in somewhere.

 

3) Shorts

 

I dont see how this would cause things to work fine on occasion for about an hour and then trip. Having tripped once further resets cause immediate tripping.

 

Other points....

 

Could it be relevent that I had the engine battery alternator regulator go after about 400 hours since new? I apprciate these can fail but it is a straw to clutch at.

 

As suggested the only way forward looks like to get a marine electrician in.

[bottle]

I dont see how this would cause things to work fine on occasion for about an hour and then trip. Having tripped once further resets cause immediate tripping

 

This sounds like something is taking an hour to 'warm up' and then causes the 'short', happens in televisions etc., bad joint, high resistance causes heat something bends and then causes short, immediate trip again on reconnection because heat has not dissipated, leave a little while cools down , hence works next time for about an hour.

 

Very difficult to find visualy, could remake all connections, may solve the problem.

[John Orentas]

These faults can be very difficult and time consuming to locate, you are looking for what is probably a very tiny leakage to earth. Initially disconnect various circuits and appliances but one by one and see if you can isolate the fault that way. If the boat wiring has been done to a good standard it is the least likely thing to give trouble, the chances are it will be within one of your bits of kit.

 

Many manufacturers insist on putting the odd resistor down to earth for suppression and other things, it could even be several of them adding up, you just have to plod along in a systematic way.

[smileypete]

Many thanks for all your responses. To clarify some points......

 

1) RCD or MCB

 

MCB I think - there are no test switches. It appears to be the normal kit marinas have in the power supply posts next to moorings.

 

2) Corrosion

 

The boat is one year old. There are no signs of any corrosion. Of course there could be water getting in somewhere.

 

3) Shorts

 

I dont see how this would cause things to work fine on occasion for about an hour and then trip. Having tripped once further resets cause immediate tripping.

 

Other points....

 

Could it be relevent that I had the engine battery alternator regulator go after about 400 hours since new? I apprciate these can fail but it is a straw to clutch at.

 

As suggested the only way forward looks like to get a marine electrician in.

 

Hi,

 

Something that may help is to have a double pole switch fitted to the output of the Victron. This would help narrow things down to the wiring and appliances connected to the Victron, or the Victron itself and the wiring from the mains inlet.

 

Also when it trips try unplugging the fridge and all other appliances before resetting the breaker.

 

Anyway please keep us updated when the problem does get diagnosed.

 

cheers,

Pete.

[DHutch]

Something that may help is to have a double pole switch fitted to the output of the Victron. ...

Yeah i was going to say that when you mentioned that you could disconect/bypass the victron.

- Fault finding is all about narrowing down the location of the fault as far as in anyway possable, by trying with with/without varous parts. Harder when its a delayed or intermitant fault, but still the way that you have to go.

 

 

Daniel

[NBDensie]

Problem solved (hopefully). However I am not clear what solved it! Since I reported the problem....

 

1) The inverter/charger was sent to Victron who reported nothing wrong. But the boatyard said that they have had previous experience of kit returned from Victron with no fault found, but magically working afterwards.

 

2) The engine battery failed and was replaced. The fault possibly had something to do with the alternator regulator failing and charging the battery at 19v. Or a duff battery broke the alternator? Could a bad battery upset the inverter/charger?

 

3) The boatyard set the inverter/charger max AC current demand to 10amp internally via the PC link. Previously it was set to 6amp using the dip-switches. Perhaps the dip-switches dont work?

 

Whatever - last time I was in the marina I was able to connect to the landline and recharge the batteries for over an hour without any problem.

 

Thanks again for previous suggestions.

[Gary Peacock]

Having just spent a week getting back into the Victron swing of things after 4 years of Mastervolt.

 

My best guess would be that the inverter/charger was set up wrong, programming the thing by dip switch it is very easy to mess up compared to using a PC and you don't have any clues of what you have done.

[anhar]

Having just spent a week getting back into the Victron swing of things after 4 years of Mastervolt.

 

My best guess would be that the inverter/charger was set up wrong, programming the thing by dip switch it is very easy to mess up compared to using a PC and you don't have any clues of what you have done.

I'm with Gary here on the unit being set up wrongly. Victron's Phoenix inverter/chargers are complex but one thing, the company gives great service in the event of problems as we've seen in this thread.

 

I don't think that a lot of boatyards fully understand how they work. And even if they do the user's circumstances may change necessitating adjustment of the unit. Note that the range of functions that can be adjusted with the dipswitches is limited. The manual gives the details. To access properly the full range of options requires the computer link using Victron software and this includes a "virtual" computer version of the remote control input current limiter unit.

 

Another method for users who need to vary input currents at different times, such as switching between different shore lines or a portable generator, is to purchase the actual remote control unit which has a dial for limiting the input current and that gives a greater range of alteration than is available from the dipswitches, and of course is far easier to use and has some other additional features too.

 

http://www.victronenergy.com/product.php?productid=147

 

See about two thirds down under Accessories, Phoenix Multi Control.

 

regards

Steve

Edited October 30, 2007 by anhar