"Vintage Marine Engines for Narrow Boats"

[RLWP]

4 minutes ago, stagedamager said:

Another good one!

Nearly as much fun as  'Are you quite sure? Perhaps she said that when you water a Hedgehog you must drop him into your paw, and when you meet a Tortoise you must shell him till he uncoils.'

[stagedamager]

Having exhausted "The Gruffalo" and various other Julia Donaldson books, we are now progressing to "Muddy Waters" and their favourite, "Snowy"..... "Vintage Marine engines for Narrowboats" will have to come after the complete set of "Hairy Maclary from Donaldson's Dairy"..... They are only 6 and 4. Although Daisy does love a starting handle.....

 

 

[RLWP]

1 minute ago, stagedamager said:

 the complete set of "Hairy Maclary from Donaldson's Dairy"..... They are only 6 and 4. Although Daisy does love a starting handle.....

Daisy knows about playing with engines

Richard

'Just So' stories are a brilliant book to read to kids.

[stagedamager]

I vaguely remember them... Through the gin haze....

[David Mack]

1 hour ago, RLWP said:

I read different books to my kids

.. The great, grey-green greasy Limpopo river, all set around with fever trees

Richard

Pussy said to the (Tawny) owl, "You elegant fowl! How charmingly sweet you sing."

[rjasmith]

14 hours ago, martyn 1 said:

Hi Richard,

I can’t see the emission issue you are referring to here, in the following section of the 2017 RCD texted to the one I quoted earlier it states the below (trimmed down to cut out the stuff we are not discussing)

“ (2) The exhaust emission requirements set out in Part B of Schedule 1 do not apply to the following—

(a)propulsion engines installed or specifically intended for installation in the following products—

(b)original historical propulsion engines and individual replicas thereof, which are based on a pre-1950 design, not produced in series and fitted on watercraft referred to in paragraph 4(1)(e) or paragraph 4(1)(h) above;

(c)propulsion engines built for own use provided that such engines are not subsequently placed on the market for a period of five years beginning with the date on which the watercraft was put into service. “

With the references to paragraph 4(1)(e) or paragraph 4(1)(h) being the two “historic boat/replica” or “own use” clauses mentioned previously. So I would read this that if you are building a boat that fulfils one of the boat related clauses and the engine fulfils one of the (a) or (b) above, which many of the most common vintage engines (Gardner, Lister JP etc) easily do, then all is good by the letter of the RCD.  However onto your next few points where things get a bit more interesting.

Here I would have to agree if you make some assumptions on how the boat is purchased. For example if you are buying the complete package from a boatbuilder who is contracted for hull, engine and fitout. Then unless it is a full on replica with cargo hold etc (e.g. a working boat) even I would say you would be on thin ice in regards to "individual replicas thereof designed before 1950 built predominantly with the original materials and labelled as such by the manufacturer"   although you would probably be ok with welded construction, steel bottom etc as long as externally it was a true representation of an original. and using the "own use"  clause would be out of the question as it has not been built/project managed by the person who owns it.

Now having said that, there are many other ways to end up with your boat within the confines of the stated clauses if your willing to do a bit more work. Take the following scenario which see's some of the engines we do in new boats. This is now on the assumption the boat is being built to the "own use"  clause. The owner contracts the yard to supply the hull, but not engine. The yard builds the hull and this can be whatever the owner likes it doesnt have to be a replica and once complete it is certified as compliant to the relavent parts of the RCD, which it is and at this point that transaction is done.

This is where the "own use"  comes in. The owner in the mean time purchases the engine and if competent fits it or contracts someone else to fit it not the hullbuilder  (Engine 'ole has already built to take it as this wouldnt affect the RCD compliance of the hull) along with the fitout being completed by the owner or separate contrators. Because the boat has either majoritively been fitted out by the owner or project managed at least by them it can fairly safely fall into the "own use"  with the slight inconvenience that to remain compliant you have to keep it 5 years.

Even long before the RCD changes this tended to be the scenario for most of the boats our engines ended up in. Yes in some cases before the changes the hull builder would be doing the whole lot but very rarely was the transaction for the engine done between us and the yard, in 99% of cases it was with the owner.

So it can still be done within the confines of the 2017 RCD but it isnt as easy as it used to be. By my interpretation of the 2017 RCD you can no longer go to your chosen boatbuilder and ask for the finished article with an old engine in. You can however ask for the hull to be built to take this old engine which you already have/will have (and if you dont im sure they would point you in the direction of someone who can help) and then sort the fitout separatly. All of this can in most cases still be done in one location as alot of the yards use external guys to do the fitouts anyway so you just sort the paperwork instead of the hull builder.   

Martyn, Thanks very much for that long and detailed response! (Greenie issued!)

I used to be fairly well versed in all of RCD1 and have read through RCD2 but without retaining the detail quite so well I fear. At the time of its approval in late 2013/early 2014 I was in contact with Mike Clarke in Belgium who I had once met at one of Kevin Whittle's vintage engine rallies (the one at Shardlow in 2004). I still have his emailed understanding of the new difficulties RCD2 would present when it was clear that his words that went into RCD1 were to be removed. 

I have since then always stuck with his advice on this specific point. Are you aware of what his clause used to say? I could look it up and send it to you if you're interested. Basically it exempted any engine that had been placed on the EU market prior to the coming into force of the RCD1 amendment that first introduced emissions requirements (approved in 2004 but in force from, I think, Jan 2006). Mike even produced an "Engine Declaration of Exemption" document quoting his clause that the builder could sign to go with the Annex XV Declaration of Compliance for all other aspects of the boat build!

All this now can't work with RCD2 of course.

I am however, from your last post, encouraged to study RCD2 again carefully to better understand how the clauses you have reminded us about (many of which were also in RCD1 but maybe subtly differently worded) can now be used by vintage engine fanatics.

Richard