Advanced Alternater Regulator

[Sir Nibble]

Certainly. You will also find people with constant battery problems who have "Tried everything" to no avail. Because they have referred to adverts instead of experts.

[Gibbo]

Look at post #2 in this thread

 

Gibbo

[chris w]

Well said.

 

The ONLY time an external controller will increase the charge rate is if the alternator IS being spun fast enough AND the internal regulator voltage is too low AND the cabling is up to spec.

 

Gibbo

 

 

ie: in the vast majority of cases then...............

 

Chris

[Serendipity]

Well said.

 

The ONLY time an external controller will increase the charge rate is if the alternator IS being spun fast enough AND the internal regulator voltage is too low AND the cabling is up to spec. If any of these conditions are not met then the external controller will either do nothing or next to nothing. It's cheaper and easier to sort the duff cabling out and replace the internal reg with a higher voltage one.

 

Unless, of course, there is a split charge diode in the system (spits).

 

Gibbo

 

 

Gibbo,

 

You saw on the other thread I'm reading 13.9V from the alternator. On the Alga site (which I think you posted the link to), I see there is a 14.4V reg for my alternator. Since the alternator is relatively new, is it likely I've got that reg and am not getting the voltage because it's not spinning fast enough (can I tell by looking at it), or should that item be on my shopping list as well as the cabling?

 

Julian

[Gibbo]

Gibbo,You saw on the other thread I'm reading 13.9V from the alternator. On the Alga site (which I think you posted the link to), I see there is a 14.4V reg for my alternator. Since the alternator is relatively new, is it likely I've got that reg and am not getting the voltage because it's not spinning fast enough (can I tell by looking at it), or should that item be on my shopping list as well as the cabling?Julian

It's hard to say. Wait til the batteries are well charged then red line the engine. That *should* take the alternator up to its regulation voltage.Gibbo

ie: in the vast majority of cases then...............Chris

I think you need to re-read the post. You'll find it's in the minority of cases.Usually the alternator ISN'T being spun fast enough and the cabling ISN'T up to the job. Especially on narrowboats.Gibbo

[Sir Nibble]

ie: in the vast majority of cases then...............

 

Chris

You'll find it's in the minority of cases.Usually the alternator ISN'T being spun fast enough and the cabling ISN'T up to the job. Especially on narrowboats.Gibbo

 

I cannot comment on this, having not carried out field research to establish the case either way.

[chris w]

Gibbo,You saw on the other thread I'm reading 13.9V from the alternator. On the Alga site (which I think you posted the link to), I see there is a 14.4V reg for my alternator. Since the alternator is relatively new, is it likely I've got that reg and am not getting the voltage because it's not spinning fast enough (can I tell by looking at it), or should that item be on my shopping list as well as the cabling?Julian

 

The regulator voltage is absolutely independent of the alternator revs. That voltage is set inside the regulator and is not changeable (except for an electronics engineer).The speed of the alternator will only affect the CURRENT available (other than when the alternator is starting up from stationary). So if you're getting 13.9v, you have a 13.9v regulator fitted.

 

Chris

Edited July 18, 2007 by chris w

[Chris-B]

Another slight curve to this thread, we have the Marelli A127IR fitted on Baldock, driven by a single 13 section belt at a very generous engine/alternator ratio.

Whilst it puts out (on the meter) 60/75 amps max the voltage is only maxing @ 13.9

This is something I need to resolve either by confusing it Gibbos way with a diode setup or an external regulator ( more damm expense)

Suggestions please ??

 

 

 

edited cos my toping iz crap

Edited July 18, 2007 by Baldock

[Sir Nibble]

Or the regulator is still "on" and the alternator is unable to generate enough current to drive the voltage higher 'cos of stator or speed limitations. If gunning the motor against a DISCHARGED battery raises the voltage it's a speed problem

[Gibbo]

The regulator voltage is absolutely independent of the alternator revs.

The *regulator* voltage might be independant, but the voltage coming out of the alternator is most definitely *not* independant. Otherwise a 14.0 volt alternator would put out 14.0 volts at zero RPM.RPM too low *can* (and does) produce a low output voltage.Gibbo

Another slight curve to this thread, we have the Marelli A127IR fitted on Baldock, driven by a single 13 section belt at a very generous engine/alternator ratio.Whilst it puts out (on the meter) 60/75 amps max the voltage is only maxing @ 13.9This is something I need to resolve either by confusing it Gibbos way with a diode setup or an external regulator ( more damm expense)Suggestions please ??edited cos my toping iz crap

Do it my way :)I'll even send you the diodes for nowt.Gibbo

[RobinJ]

The ONLY time an external controller will increase the charge rate is if the alternator IS being spun fast enough AND the internal regulator voltage is too low AND the cabling is up to spec. If any of these conditions are not met then the external controller will either do nothing or next to nothing.

I know mine charges at constant current (many do at least in part), admittedly by pushing up the voltage limit.

Is not the benefit charge time. Voltage regulation reduces current as the voltage rises, but some external ones maintain current at a high level so the voltage rises quicker?

What effect do larger battery banks have? Are not on board controllers designed to work with one batery? Not necessarily ideal for multi bank operation, especially if they are differentially discharged?

[Gibbo]

I know mine charges at constant current (many do at least in part), admittedly by pushing up the voltage limit.

Is not the benefit charge time. Voltage regulation reduces current as the voltage rises, but some external ones maintain current at a high level so the voltage rises quicker?

What effect do larger battery banks have? Are not on board controllers designed to work with one batery? Not necessarily ideal for multi bank operation, especially if they are differentially discharged?

 

All (yes all) chargers run constant current then constant voltage or seriously limited current which results in the same thing.. Anything else would would result in either infinite current or infinite voltage.

 

Multiple batteries makes no difference.

 

Gibbo

[smileypete]

Tell us Gibbo,

 

What voltage do you charge your domestic batys at?

 

cheers,

Pete.

[David Schweizer]

In reality an external controller simply wacks the charge voltage up to a higher level. This charges the batteries faster. All the "complex software algorithms" is marketing hype. I know this. I'm not guessing. I've designed and built commercial ones.

 

Gibbo

With reference to you designing Alternator regulators Gibbo, what happemned about your offer to produce a circuit diagram to enable us to build one ourselves for about £30.

 

I put my name down as one of those willing to give it a go but have heard nothing since, and there will be no problem about components as we still have one of those old fashioned elecronics components shops in Bath ( although I don't know how long they will last as the owner is about 75 years old)

[Serendipity]

With reference to you designing Alternator regulators Gibbo, what happemned about your offer to produce a circuit diagram to enable us to build one ourselves for about £30.

 

I put my name down as one of those willing to give it a go but have heard nothing since, and there will be no problem about components as we still have one of those old fashioned elecronics components shops in Bath ( although I don't know how long they will last as the owner is about 75 years old)

 

Is that the sort of shop I remember as a kid building amplifiers and such from diagrams in Practical Electronics - It was in Dorking, you could buy resistors, capacitors and transistors singly as well as valves, though me and my pal weren't into the latter. I still remember the smell and the old bakelite radios stacked on the shelves and I'm not too old either

[Guest]

Having never felt the need for a battery boiler, I have never fitted one on my boat (though previous ones may have benefited with low voltage alternators). What is the likely effect if any, on the longevity of the alternator? I am from the old school where you can't have somethng for nothing, and as I see it the alternator is forced to do more work (if indeed any large improvement really exists). Are early failures ever encountered when using battery boilers?

[chris w]

The *regulator* voltage might be independant, but the voltage coming out of the alternator is most definitely *not* independant. Otherwise a 14.0 volt alternator would put out 14.0 volts at zero RPM.

Gibbo

 

I did say "except when starting up!!!!" The output voltage from the alternator can never rise above that of the regulator so if you have a 13.9v reg then the maximum voltage you'll ever get out of the alternator is 13.9v. If the alternator output is limited by revs then of course the actual alternator output voltage may be lower. My 80A Lucas A127 will deliver 45 amps at idle (1400rpm at the alternator) so I would think that modern alternators wouldn't have an issue in this regard.

 

Chris

[RobinJ]

Having never felt the need for a battery boiler, I have never fitted one on my boat.

What is the likely effect if any, on the longevity of the alternator? Are early failures ever encountered when using battery boilers?

 

Yep, don't get owt for nowt!

Can't see why, its running for the same amount of time. So long as it can handle any extra heat and load. May be (mine slips a bit on full whack) you have to change the belt more often?

[Sir Nibble]

QUOTE(catweasel @ Jul 18 2007, 10:29 PM)

Having never felt the need for a battery boiler, I have never fitted one on my boat.

What is the likely effect if any, on the longevity of the alternator? Are early failures ever encountered when using battery boilers?

 

I strip and rebuild alternators all the time, different units are prone to different failures. A127s for instance almost invariably die from diode failure.

Hitachi units die from brush wear, unless fitted with a charge controller, then they demolish their diodes quite spectacularly.

 

I am always being tasked with adapting alternators for external controllers, these are mostly going on yachts where the engine runs at about 3000 rpm for 20 mins then shuts down for 8 hours before getting another 20 mins. They do seem to help, but compared to a narrowboat yacht batteries are small and there is no 4 mph limit. The same engine on the canal would never exceed maybe 1500 rpm. That's why alternator speed is an issue, it doesn't occur to the builders of a 50hp 5000 rpm engine that anyone would employ it at next to idle all day every day.

[Gibbo]

Tell us Gibbo,What voltage do you charge your domestic batys at? cheers,Pete.

You know the answer to that and I'm not answering it here as it will start a war.What I will say is that if I could come up with a controller with enough intelligence to do what I do and a simple sensor to detect battery gassing I would produce one. But there are simply too many variables to pack into a cheap enough processor to make it viable. It would take a powerful laptop to control the damned thing.Gibbo

I did say "except when starting up!!!!" The output voltage from the alternator can never rise above that of the regulator so if you have a 13.9v reg then the maximum voltage you'll ever get out of the alternator is 13.9v. If the alternator output is limited by revs then of course the actual alternator output voltage may be lower. My 80A Lucas A127 will deliver 45 amps at idle (1400rpm at the alternator) so I would think that modern alternators wouldn't have an issue in this regard.Chris

This is one of the main problems. Alternators are almost never pulley'd up properly on marine engines (yours included) otherwise they'd produce full output at tickover.Gibbo

With reference to you designing Alternator regulators Gibbo, what happemned about your offer to produce a circuit diagram to enable us to build one ourselves for about £30.

I'm working on it. Rome wasn't built etc....Gibbo

[chris w]

I'm working on it. Rome wasn't built etc....Gibbo

 

The problem with producing an alternator controller as a self-build kit is that to make the circuit simple, versatile and small, one should use a PIC microcontroller or similar. If Gibbo produced a kit, then either he would have to program every PIC himself or the kit would only be of use to someone with knowledge of machine code. Obviously as a circuit diagram only rather than a kit, machine code would then be an absolute must.

 

One could of course design somthing in hardware only but it would be less versatile, have loads more components and be significantly larger. The advantage of PICs is that one usually only needs a handful of peripheral components. As you can guess - I love PICs.

 

Chris

[Sir Nibble]

I love PICs.

Yes, they are wonderful things. Unfortunately, I often come across equipment (like car alarms) where with all the important functions taken care of, the PIC still has loads of room left for further whistles and bells and the designer racks his brains to find further functions to add. Result, a mechanism designed around the PIC rather than the user or the purpose of the thing. Over complex, a manual the size of war and peace and constant failures due to glitches in things that don't need to be there.

[chris w]

Alternators are almost never pulley'd up properly on marine engines (yours included) otherwise they'd produce full output at tickover.Gibbo

 

The issue is usually that the alternator pulley can't be less than about 8cm diameter or else the belt won't grip properly. My engine pulley is double that (16cm diameter). To get significantly more alternator output might need a 4:1 ratio (800 engine rpm = 3200 alternator rpm). That's a bl**dy big pulley and the water pump may also be driven of it so therein lies the compromise as the water pump will have its optimum speed too.

 

Chris

[Sir Nibble]

Manufacturers aren't happy with high outputs at too low a speed 'cos of cooling issues.

[chris w]

Ah, good thought. and in reality for the kind of typical domestic battery bank say 400AH +/- then 45 amps or so is probably about right anyway.

 

Chris