Lutine again... Banbury and won't start

[magpie patrick]

Hopefully someone is reading this...

 

Picked her up from Fenny Compton - last trip from Whittington went well, four days good running with a repaied engine courtesy of RLWP, save for needing a new starter battery

 

This trip slighty reluctant to start at Fenny Compton, and yesterday afternoon wouldn't start. Two seperate problems

 

1- the ignition key was dead, by passed by using a screwdriver on the starter solenoid terminals

 

2 - the mechanical engine stop needed a damn good shove

 

Today it's just not turning fast enough to start, even with the decompressors off,

 

Is this boat cursed?

 

River and Canal Rescure can't come for 24 hours (I'm not a member)

 

1st Ade (my brother) has made a few suggestions, including pondering whether it's flat batteries or something stopping the engine turning, although it should be added that it ran okay yesterday.

 

Thoughts, and thanks for ideas!

 

Patrick

[Arthur Brown]

Is the ignition keyswitch in the charge or "ign lamp" circuit? You ran for one day possibly with no charge and flattened the battery beyond restarting?

[MoominPapa]

I think Arthur may be on the right lines - if the ignition switch is u/s, that may have disabled charging too. Can you try jump starting from the domestic batteries?

 

 

MP.

 

ETA: or find a neighbour with charged batteries and jump leads?

Edited August 28, 2016 by MoominPapa

[Neil Walker]

Where in Babylon are you? Up tramway if you need some jump leads/ ought else . .

[magpie patrick]

Hi Neil, thank you for that! If it comes to it we're by the Castle Quay, just up from the lift bridge.

 

And thanks to all for responses. I have linked to domestics, and borrowe'd a multi meter. The bank is reading 11 volts which explain the slow turning!

 

The electrics are a bit dodgy. Today the ignition switch will bring the light on and will sometimes try and start the engine. I think, regardless of the outcome today the wiring needs attention before going to much further.

[Tony Dunkley]

Hopefully someone is reading this...

 

Picked her up from Fenny Compton - last trip from Whittington went well, four days good running with a repaied engine courtesy of RLWP, save for needing a new starter battery

 

This trip slighty reluctant to start at Fenny Compton, and yesterday afternoon wouldn't start. Two seperate problems

 

1- the ignition key was dead, by passed by using a screwdriver on the starter solenoid terminals

 

2 - the mechanical engine stop needed a damn good shove

 

Today it's just not turning fast enough to start, even with the decompressors off,

 

Is this boat cursed?

 

River and Canal Rescure can't come for 24 hours (I'm not a member)

 

1st Ade (my brother) has made a few suggestions, including pondering whether it's flat batteries or something stopping the engine turning, although it should be added that it ran okay yesterday.

 

Thoughts, and thanks for ideas!

 

Patrick

 

Can you elaborate on problem 2) a bit more ? There's a good possibility that it's linked to the reluctant starting.

[Neil Walker]

No problem at all, let me know, I will wander down. (After the next shower) Got a fair supply of eleccy bits and bobs etc on board. Will be around next few days

[magpie patrick]

Hi Tony,

 

The mechanical stop is a cable of the type normally fitted but mounted on a pedestal. In this instance the cable is loose except for cable ties as it is a makeshift arrangement like so much else - the electric stop button arrangement failed and I never liked it anyway.

 

Since this arrangement was fitted I've sometimes had the feeling the engine was struggling to start because it was being starved of fuel. The sound was "dry" for want of a better description, and similar to failing to push the knob back. Yesterday when it wouldn't start I went to the engine end of this cable and operated the lever on the engine a couple of times. Then when I tried the engine started, but more importantly as it tried it was burning fuel.

 

There was no visible difference, the entire arrangement appeared to have returned home before I fiddled and looked no different after, but it clearly made a difference. My guess is something I can't see has a bit of play in it?

Edited August 28, 2016 by magpie patrick

[bizzard]

When you say the ignition key is dead, you mean nothing happens? Without the charge warning light working its doubtful if the alternator will be excited, to charge the battery. The thin wire from the alternators small w/l terminal goes to one side of the warning light holder. A live wire from the ignition switch when turned on and start position goes to the other terminal on the warning light holder. A live 12v wire from anywhere put onto that warning light terminal will make it work and excite the alternator into action. Also check the alternator drive belt for slackness and wear.

[Tony Dunkley]

Since this arrangement was fitted I've sometimes had the feeling the engine was struggling to start because it was being starved of fuel. The sound was "dry" for want of a better description, and similar to failing to push the knob back. Yesterday when it wouldn't start I went to the engine end of this cable and operated the lever on the engine a couple of times. Then when I tried the engine started, but more importantly as it tried it was burning fuel.

 

There was no visible difference, the entire arrangement appeared to have returned home before I fiddled and looked no different after, but it clearly made a difference. My guess is something I can't see has a bit of play in it?

 

From memory [ another topic and posts] I think you've got an SR2, . . . yes ?

 

You're on the right track re. fuel starvation, and it's going to be something preventing the injector pump racks from operating freely and returning to the start/run position.

 

Is this 'lever' an extension lever attached to the small 'butterfly' control [near to the bottom corner of the air ducting] that rotates clockwise to stop the engine, and was the 'good shove' needed when stopping, prior to starting, or when checking when it wouldn't start ?

Edited August 28, 2016 by Tony Dunkley

[magpie patrick]

Hi Tony: ST2 rather than SR2. The "good shove" was needed to get the engine to start. The cable fastens to a lever very close to where the throttle cable connects to the engine - towards the front, left hand side below where the air comes out of the engine. The lever is a right angle crank that rotates clockwise to stop the engine.

 

While I have flat batteries at the moment, the difficulty in starting the engine is likely to have contributed to this if it isn't charging.

[Tony Dunkley]

Hi Tony: ST2 rather than SR2. The "good shove" was needed to get the engine to start. The cable fastens to a lever very close to where the throttle cable connects to the engine - towards the front, left hand side below where the air comes out of the engine. The lever is a right angle crank that rotates clockwise to stop the engine.

 

While I have flat batteries at the moment, the difficulty in starting the engine is likely to have contributed to this if it isn't charging.

 

Do you fancy a bit of spannering while you're getting some juice back into the batteries ?

 

If you do, then unfasten the air-ducting from the engine and get it out of the way. Then take off the pump cover sideplate, . . . it's the upper one of the two sideplates [ the lower one is the crankcase door and gives access to the crank and big-ends] , and the bottom lefthand corner of it is slightly above and to the right of the lever we've just been talking about.

Behind this cover plate [held in place by six cheese-head screws] you'll see both the injector pumps, . . . check [with the end of your finger] that the pump control racks are free to move horizontally in both directions when the stop lever is in the start/run postion.

Edited August 28, 2016 by Tony Dunkley

[Arthur Brown]

This time of the year a moderate solar panel should recharge a starter battery in a day of sunlight. This will keep your battery charged until you manage to get a full investigation into the state of the electrics and maybe a new keyswitch. Maplin have some panels in kits at about 40w.

[Horace42]

I don't know anything about your engine or your depth of knowledge, so apologies if I state the obvious.

As a general comment a problem with an ignition switch can affect the charging circuit (as already said by others) but also the pre-heaters - usually necessary in all weathers but essential when cold.

If you have pre-heaters then it drains the battery and interferes with the starter. - so a long pause between 'pre-heat' and 'start' helps.when the battery charge is low.

There could also be air in the fuel line - if so this must be completely bled out.

 

[bargemast]

I don't know anything about your engine or your depth of knowledge, so apologies if I state the obvious.

As a general comment a problem with an ignition switch can affect the charging circuit (as already said by others) but also the pre-heaters - usually necessary in all weathers but essential when cold.

If you have pre-heaters then it drains the battery and interferes with the starter. - so a long pause between 'pre-heat' and 'start' helps.when the battery charge is low.

There could also be air in the fuel line - if so this must be completely bled out.

 

 

If you make a long pause between pre-heat and starting, there won't be much pre-heat left.

 

Peter.

[bizzard]

No heaters on ST engines, direct injection.

[Horace42]

 

If you make a long pause between pre-heat and starting, there won't be much pre-heat left.

 

Peter.

 

A short pause then.- long enough for the battery to recover and the heat of the electrode to dissipate into the fuel.

My engine needs about 8 seconds pre-heat when very cold and about 3 seconds pause to start when the battery is low.. It comes with practice.

I can go straight to start without pre-heat when the engine is hot.

But then when hot it usually means the battery has been on charge and has plenty of power anyway.

I mentioned the pre-heat (and pause before before start) in case it helps.

 

.

[Arthur Brown]

With a battery bank at 11 volts there is nothing to turn the engine over electrically. If there is a starting handle things should be easier. Otherwise get the battery charged to full off the boat and repair/replace the starter switch. IMO the disfunctional starter switch means that when you started the engine with a screwdriver onto the solenoid the diesel ran but the generator/alternator didn't make electricity because the Ign lamp/wire was not connected to the battery live (+ve usually).

[bargemast]

With a battery bank at 11 volts there is nothing to turn the engine over electrically. If there is a starting handle things should be easier. Otherwise get the battery charged to full off the boat and repair/replace the starter switch. IMO the disfunctional starter switch means that when you started the engine with a screwdriver onto the solenoid the diesel ran but the generator/alternator didn't make electricity because the Ign lamp/wire was not connected to the battery live (+ve usually).

 

In post # 9 bizzard came with a good solution to excite the alternator, until there's a new ignition-switch.

 

Peter.

[bizzard]

 

In post # 9 bizzard came with a good solution to excite the alternator, until there's a new ignition-switch.

 

Peter.

Thank you Peter. Folk often seem to bypass or overlook my recommendations posts, perhaps they think, Oh! its im agen, probably a load of nonsense.

[magpie patrick]

Certainly don't think that Bizzard. You and Tony between you have been a great help and a great hope.

 

Woken this morning and battery bank is dead. Bro turning up later with a charged battery. Can't stay here as it's a 48 hour mooring but need to take stock. Tbh I don't think one afternoon of running not charging the batteries has led to this. I think I have a charging or a battery problem.

Edited August 29, 2016 by magpie patrick

[1st ade]

I'm off to Banbury today to visit Lutine and MP with (amongst other things) a fully charged battery and a set of jump leads. If / when started we'll investigate the lack of charging (I've got a 12v 6W tail light wired to croc clips - it's meant as a test light but I'm sure it'll suffice to excite the alternator if that's the only problem.

 

Any thoughts or tips on starting with jump leads? If it was a car it's more like "jump charging"; put the leads on, leave the 'good' vehicle running for a few minutes to put some juice into the dead battery, then hit the key. I don't know if my battery has the same terminal posts as Lutine's starter battery but don't want to flatten it by putting it in parallel.

 

Put the spare in then if (when) it starts use the jump leads to charge the original?

[bargemast]

I'm off to Banbury today to visit Lutine and MP with (amongst other things) a fully charged battery and a set of jump leads. If / when started we'll investigate the lack of charging (I've got a 12v 6W tail light wired to croc clips - it's meant as a test light but I'm sure it'll suffice to excite the alternator if that's the only problem.

 

Any thoughts or tips on starting with jump leads? If it was a car it's more like "jump charging"; put the leads on, leave the 'good' vehicle running for a few minutes to put some juice into the dead battery, then hit the key. I don't know if my battery has the same terminal posts as Lutine's starter battery but don't want to flatten it by putting it in parallel.

 

Put the spare in then if (when) it starts use the jump leads to charge the original?

 

That's very kind of you 1 ste ade, but I think that he has to have his new battery first, which should make the engine start already, as if not it will start with your charged battery, but if his old one is knackered it's won't store the charge for long enough, and he'll have the same problem the next morning.

 

Also the wiring problem has to be sorted to make sure that there are no other reasons for loosing the charge so quickly.

 

Peter.

Edited August 29, 2016 by bargemast

[Arthur Brown]

I remain concerned that the ignition switch is reported as kaput.One way that the system could lose power is to have the "ign lamp" current on all the time.

 

Spend a while drawing out the electrical circuit diagram of what you actually have.

[bargemast]

Thank you Peter. Folk often seem to bypass or overlook my recommendations posts, perhaps they think, Oh! its im agen, probably a load of nonsense.

 

Hi bizzard, I have noticed a long time ago already that if people have a serious technical problem, your answers and tips are always very useful, you know your stuff, no doubt about that.

 

Peter.