Batteries

[Foss62]

sorry to probably ask about batteries as many have before ?

 

We have four lie sure batteries and a elecsol 220 starter.starter battery not charging even after five hours cruising,even 12v went dim when we got back ???

Can jump off of marinas charger and started two weeks ago.plugged into 240v land line while we're away.

240v also went off while we were out,12v was ok Saturday night as well.theres a twist handle in engine bay ,not sure what that is but starter wire goes to it.got sinewave inverter.also battery switch with 1/both/2 on it....I'm learning all the time as electrics not my strong point...many experts on here so grateful for any advice please....pulling hair out ?

Also alternator started to squeak a little but can tighten belt.

Yours in hope

 

Russ

[blackrose]

I'm probably not much more knowledgeable than you when it comes to electrics, but if your domestic bank is ok and you have a set of car jump leads, then you can always take a jump from the domestics if you need to.

Edited May 4, 2015 by blackrose

[bottle]

Now this is going to be like trying to find a needle in a haystack but will give you this,

 

The 1/both/2 switch will (probably) be wired so that the start is connected to 1 or 2 and the domestic are wired to 1 or 2, you will need to trace the wiring.

 

Lets for argument sake say the start is connected to 1 and the domestics connected to 2.

 

Normal procedure in that case would be set the switch to 1 and start the engine.

 

When the engine is running set the switch to both.

 

When moored up and engine stopped set the switch to 2

 

That will ensure your start battery is always charged and only the domestics are used to power the internal lighting etc.

[Foss62]

Now this is going to be like trying to find a needle in a haystack but will give you this,

 

The 1/both/2 switch will (probably) be wired so that the start is connected to 1 or 2 and the domestic are wired to 1 or 2, you will need to trace the wiring.

 

Lets for argument sake say the start is connected to 1 and the domestics connected to 2.

 

Normal procedure in that case would be set the switch to 1 and start the engine.

 

When the engine is running set the switch to both.

 

When moored up and engine stopped set the switch to 2

 

That will ensure your start battery is always charged and only the domestics are used to power the internal lighting etc.

I wish the switch was on the deck which would be bit easier,I like your thinking as it sounds right,will try anything as getting very ratty when it's flat

[Naughty Cal]

Is there someone nearby who knows what they are looking at that could take a look for you?

 

Without much more information it could be any number of things!

Edited May 4, 2015 by Naughty Cal

[Foss62]

Is there someone nearby who knows what they are looking at that could take a look for you?

Without much more information it could be any number of things!

Is there someone nearby who knows what they are looking at that could take a look for you?

Without much more information it could be any number of things!

 

There is but he's really expensive so I thought id try first

[ditchcrawler]

There is but he's really expensive so I thought id try first

There must be a member on the K&A who could just look and give you an idea whats happening.

[Alan Saunders]

I have a big, red, '1, both, 2, off ' rotary switch. If you understand its function and remember to use the switch between the four positions appropriately it is a nice, simple device. You can even use 'both' to jump-start the engine from the 'house' batteries. Unfortunately mine failed, broken plastic bits, so it is now permanently set to '1' and a split charge relay takes care of isolating the start battery. It still works as an isolator; move it to any position and and both batteries are disconnected - unfortunately remaking any connection requires dismatling the switch!

 

Then again, you may have an unrelated charging problem.

 

Alan

[Foss62]

Right...update.

Went to boat yesterday,all batteries completely flat,tried to jump but wouldn't,put on charge,digital reading was 3.6 ,left on charge for hours and not really much improvement,think starter battery is flat so bought home to try and charge.had a marina engineer who was passing look at it ,said the big elecsol 220 battery is for the inverter and needs a lot of charge.left boat with no 12 v,even radio went off.he said I need a 240v charger so when plugged into shore will charge the batteries...so frustrating.any help very much appreciated.might be something silly...hopefully

[Tony Brooks]

If you can get at least some charge into the batteries so I can use meters to see what is going on I should be free to have a look (FOC) next Thursday.

 

Pity I only just noticed this (I tend to ignore battery threads because often they do not have enough information in them) because I could have popped across this morning. PM me if you want me to look.

 

If you have no way of charging the batteries then I think you do need a mains battery charger and shoreline. Even a fairly cheap car one of modern design will do in an emergency but NOT one made before about (say) 2000.

[Foss62]

Tony

I've got the starter battery on charge here at home,been on for couple of hours now so will see if it takes it....was wondering if the other big battery could be the starter,need to check into it.im in Sevenoaks but could come down Thursday as only takes 90 mins depending on traffic.

Russ

[Tony Brooks]

Tony

I've got the starter battery on charge here at home,been on for couple of hours now so will see if it takes it....was wondering if the other big battery could be the starter,need to check into it.im in Sevenoaks but could come down Thursday as only takes 90 mins depending on traffic.

Russ

 

I should be in Reading for a day or two but best to email or PM me because I do not want to make my movements too public. If you can't PM then Tony@TB-Training.co.uk.

[Foss62]

Left battery charging all night,turned off at lunchtime and its lost some charge so think it's shot,is a liesure battery the same as got three and probably don't need three,russ

[bottle]

How did you test it to know it lost its charge?

[Naughty Cal]

It sounds like you really do need someone to take a good look over your set up and advise you of the best way forward.

 

Ideally this would be a knowledgable friend who would do this for a few drinks but if not spending a bit with a marine engineer who knows what he is looking at will be cheaper then ruining a set of batteries by continually flattening them.

[Tony Brooks]

It sounds like you really do need someone to take a good look over your set up and advise you of the best way forward.

 

Ideally this would be a knowledgable friend who would do this for a few drinks but if not spending a bit with a marine engineer who knows what he is looking at will be cheaper then ruining a set of batteries by continually flattening them.

 

Offer made but post 13 suggests that the OP has made his own diagnosis and does not want me to have a look. So far no email or PM from him as per my last post in this thread.

 

PS Don't like the knowledgeable bit and I do not like the sound of a 220Ah bow thruster battery presumably at the back of the boat - especially if its is linked to a a 1,2,bot, off type switch. To my mind that suggests it may not be isolated from the engine or domestic bank unless there is another charge splitter the OP does not know about.

[Foss62]

Tony

Sorry I meant to get back to you just wanted to see if the battery I bought home held its charge,I think it is but need a tester to check.

The big battery at the back is for the inverter I was told by a marine bloke,it is a whopper,I can't even lift it.i don't have bow thrusters though.hopefully it's something silly

Russ

[Foss62]

Tony

Sorry I meant to get back to you just wanted to see if the battery I bought home held its charge,I think it is but need a tester to check.

The big battery at the back is for the inverter I was told by a marine bloke,it is a whopper,I can't even lift it.i don't have bow thrusters though.hopefully it's something silly

Russ

[Tony Brooks]

Marine bloke probably not as well up on things as he thinks he is. My guess is it the domestic battery but we can see when I visit.

[Tony Brooks]

Report:

 

The boat has been re-engined with a twin alternator - single fan belt Shire so the squeals mentioned could well have been a loose belt that the OP had tightened. The engine and domestic bank are charged via the 1,2 , both, off switch while a split charge relay charges a 220Ah dedicated battery for a 225 Watt pure sine inverter. This battery has its own master switch.

 

The OP had been advised by the vendor to leave the 1,2,3,both, off switch in the both position and it seems the 12V compressor fridge had been left running so (I think) the engine and domestic banks became absolutely flat. When I checked the sealed flooded cell engine battery voltage having been recharged and brought back to the boat and not connected it was about 8 volts. I can only assume this is now a faulty battery.

 

The domestic bank read 10.8 volts but that was with a small solar charger connected. The ends were slightly bowed so again I suspect this bank is at the end of its life.

 

Upon using a start-charger to start the engine there was no unusual sounds from the alternator. Upon setting the switch to "both" the sum of charge to the domestic and engine bank were approximately equal to the top alternator's rated output but the 220 Ah inverter battery was receiving virtually no charge. The split charge relay was hot as were its main terminals. I concluded the relay has burned out and needs changing. However as the inverter is only rated at 225 Watts I have recommended that the 220 Ah battery be discarded and the inverter connected to the domestic bank. Thereby doing away with the relay and some suspiciously thin charging cables.

 

I have also recommended that the domestic pos. & neg. cables be moved so they are a opposite ends of the bank.

 

The main charging wiring is such that I have not been able to fully trace the outputs from the two alternators so am unsure about how they connect to the banks. I have a suspicion (see below) that the lower (engine) alternator may not have its output connected.

 

After maybe 15 minutes of running an alternator started to squeal and at that time I found the lower alternator stone cold. Neither pulley seemed particularly hot and the squeal sounded more metal to metal that a typical belt squeal. The OP later said he thinks it is the lower alternator that is squealing so I am not sure what to think about that other than it is not charging. I think the OP is going to have it tested.

 

The engine voltmeter showed about 14 volts and a "plug in" digital domestic voltmeter read 13.6 volts at about 1500 rpm. The wiring is such that I suspect voltdrop. In fact I would do away with the 1,2,both, off switch, fit a pair of decent master switches and rewire the alternators so one charged each bank.

 

There is a disconnected Adverc probably rendered obsolete when the engine was changed.

 

I do not think the land line has any galvanic isolation but although there is an RCD I could not see any Mains hull-earth bond and have advised accordingly. I have also explained that the inverter is not use for much more than charging phones and such like, certainly nowhere near large enough to run a 2kW electric kettle. The OP seems more than happy to only use high powered mains equipment when on shore line and seems to appropriate that a 12V TV etc. is probably the best way to go when cruising.

 

I suspect that 220 Ah battery may be left over from when the boat was a hire boat and the inverter was changed for such a low power one when it was sold from the fleet. It had a terminal voltage of about 8 volts so again I suspect it has had it.

 

That's about as far as I could go without a torch, mirror and opening up harnesses etc.

[Foss62]

Tony

Just got back,sorry about the rain ☔️.

Have taken on board all you said,very very helpful and a nice bloke,wish I could contain in my brain all the info that you've got.have measured for a alternator belt as think could use only the larger alternator.couldnt get the other one off and got soaked so came home.will charge the other batteries and see if they hold ok,will order new starter battery.thanks for your time today,very nice to meet you

 

Russ

[ing.sohaib]

Hi Tony,

 

So you basically think that the inverter has given up? These inverters are generally very rugged and have operation life of decades. You could simply take the inverter out to check if it would give a correct voltage when connected with a working alternator. Is is possible that such an issue could arrive because alternator is unable to supply an inverter with the current it require?

Regards,
Sohaib Jaffar

[Tony Brooks]

 

 

 

 

Hi Tony,

 

So you basically think that the inverter has given up? These inverters are generally very rugged and have operation life of decades. You could simply take the inverter out to check if it would give a correct voltage when connected with a working alternator. Is is possible that such an issue could arrive because alternator is unable to supply an inverter with the current it require?

 

Regards,

Sohaib Jaffar

 

 

 

 

No - There is no reason a 50 ampish alternator can not supply a 300 Watt inverter without making a "failed bearing" type metal to metal screem.

 

I think the owner was sold somthing of a dog in the electrical department and was also poorley advised by the vendor or their agent re the 1,2,both, off switch.

 

Also the owner had only used a shoreline for 240 volts AC since buying the boat so ths inverter is not implicated. Most likley worn out hire boat batteries are, plus a faulty split charge relay and faulty alternator.

 

After speaking to the owner last night It seems the problems have mainly been solved except from his decription of electrical load and battery voltage rather suggests he may have a faulty domestic bank.