Police boarding your boat - is this allowed?

[Guest]

What utter twaddle you are writng. So as a passing Police officer looking through the window of your boat and seeing you throttling your partner are you SERIOUSLY trying to tell me that I would either have to ask your permission to come aboard or go and get a warrant??? I don't think so!!

 

You need to check out PACE Section 17

Calm down. If they suspect a crime is in progress they can enter, of course they can.

[jenlyn]

What utter twaddle you are writng. So as a passing Police officer looking through the window of your boat and seeing you throttling your partner are you SERIOUSLY trying to tell me that I would either have to ask your permission to come aboard or go and get a warrant??? I don't think so!!

 

You need to check out PACE Section 17

Here we go. It doesn't fit, so make it do so with some pointless scenario.

Ahahaha...

[Guest]

Yes, this is right. What's more, you don't need to be doing anything nearly as serious as attempted murder for the Police to board and search your boat without a warrant, a whiff of cannabis coming out of the windows, even an imaginary whiff of cannabis would be enough.

Which is not the circumstances the OP enquired about.

 

She asked about a general 'right' to board a boat. NOT about a right to enter a boat if they suspect a crime is in progress or about to be committed.

 

To have the 'right' to board the boat they would have needed to Have reasonable grounds to believe or suspect Betty was harbouring the missing person, whereas it's pretty obvious they were actually just making general enquiries.

Edited April 9, 2015 by MJG

[johnmck]

So you walk up a path and knock on a door. Or,you step on a boat and knock on what is a door, what differs?

 

Why, when the officer has a legitimate enquiry is this a problem?

 

The term "get a life" springs to mind...

[Wanderer Vagabond]

Personally I can't see an issue with what has happened. Like other comments above boarding to knock on the door is like walking up the path to knock on the front door of a house. I don't know the legality of stepping aboard but I would not have given it a second thought particularly in the circumstance of looking for a missing person.

Accepting that it was just a query on the matter, I would think that a Police Officer could probably use Police and Criminal Evidence Act (PACE)1984,Section 17(1)(e) to come aboard your boat when looking for a missing person if there was concern that they might be going to self harm.Similarly if you refused them access and they had reasonable grounds for believing the person was on your boat and they could reasonably believe that you were going to cause them harm that would also give them lawful access.

 

In reality however I imagine that the Police Officer was unaware of boating etiquette if it was just a general enquiry as to whether or not you had seen the missing person.

[Guest]

..

Edited April 9, 2015 by MJG

[Wanderer Vagabond]

Here we go. It doesn't fit, so make it do so with some pointless scenario.

Ahahaha...

What doesn't fit was your assertion that they had to either have a warrant or permission to enter, utter rubbish!

[Sabcat]

Accepting that it was just a query on the matter, I would think that a Police Officer could probably use Police and Criminal Evidence Act (PACE)1984,Section 17(1)(e) to come aboard your boat when looking for a missing person if there was concern that they might be going to self harm.Similarly if you refused them access and they had reasonable grounds for believing the person was on your boat and they could reasonably believe that you were going to cause them harm that would also give them lawful access.

 

In reality however I imagine that the Police Officer was unaware of boating etiquette if it was just a general enquiry as to whether or not you had seen the missing person.

 

Everything you've said about boats, relates also to houses.

 

The reality is, and take it from someone who'd told the cops to jog on, on a number of occasions when they've come for a "chat" that they can't just come into your boat because they want to.

[Bettie Boo]

Total rubbish.

I have been through this with the police themselves. They are not allowed on any part of "dwelling place" unless invited, or with a warrant.

 

 

 

This will have been a case of innocent ignorance with the best of intentions – but no, it is an offence for them to do it.

 

There are a number of situations justifying the police and some other authorised persons boarding your boat without consent, and I have previously listed those in some other topic; making general enquiries of this sort is most certainly not amongst those, although given the obvious good intentions I would not make an issue over it.

 

Depending on my mood I might or might not amiably point out the relevant law for their future reference, making clear that I did so in the interests of their maintaining non-abrasive relationships with the boating fraternity.

 

It is a question of maritime law, having nothing to do with whether it is your home or not.

 

The relevant statutory navigation authority itself, is strictly constrained by their own legislation as to when they may board your boat without prior consent.

 

 

Thanks both for the info - like I said in my OP; it wasn't a big deal considering the reason for her boarding the boat. As I said, we didn't say anything to her about it as we weren't really sure if it was proper or not & the reason for her doing it outweighed my being startled.

 

If anything like that ever happens again, we will polity explain that a tap on the side or roof of the boat is a more respectful option for gaining the attention of people inside a boat rather than jumping on board to knock on the door windows.

 

 

 

Also, in some cases the front doors might actually be the bedroom of the boat - pretty hard to tell if all your curtains are drawn on the tow path side and they can't see in

 

 

 

And for those who assumed I was being disrespectful of the situation; I certainly didn't in any way mean to take away from the importance of the missing lady for those who thought I might have been more concerned about the police stepping on board our boat than the situation of why they did so. But considering I don't have a description of the missing person and didn't see the photo she showed Dave, there was little I could post on here that would have helped in any way locate the lady.

 

Imagine the come back I would have received if my post had of been...

 

The police are looking for a missing lady in the Leighton Buzzard area, along the tow path. Sorry, no details as to age, physical description or what she was last seen wearing. Oh and by the way can the Police board your boat when doing tow path searches for missing people?

[jenlyn]

What doesn't fit was your assertion that they had to either have a warrant or permission to enter, utter rubbish!

Oh stop whittering on for the sake of it. I'll prefer to take the word of the police I spoke to rather than yours thanks. I'm certain they are more up on the law than you.

[Wanderer Vagabond]

 

Everything you've said about boats, relates also to houses.

 

The reality is, and take it from someone who'd told the cops to jog on, on a number of occasions when they've come for a "chat" that they can't just come into your boat because they want to.

This is a bit different from your original assertion. No they cannot just come into either a house or boat just because they want to but if they have a genuine reason to do so that fits Section 17 then you are not going to stop them coming in, take it from someone who has entered a lot of houses over the years in which the occupant told me I wasn't coming in without a warrant, always sadly disabused of this fallacy.

[johnmck]

It is I am afraid, posts such as this, making an issue about nothing, which makes me despair about life...

 

So they are making enquiries about a missing person and you want not a foot to touch your boat!

 

You live in a bubble.

[Bettie Boo]

Which is not the circumstances the OP enquired about.

 

She asked about a general 'right' to board a boat. NOT about a right to enter a boat if they suspect a crime is in progress or about to be committed.

 

To have the 'right' to board the boat they would have needed to Have reasonable grounds to believe or suspect Betty was harbouring the missing person, whereas it's pretty obvious they were actually just making general enquiries.

 

Thank you - at least someone read it as a simple question

 

I guess I should have put the last sentence in LARGE BOLD PRINT where I said "it's not really a big deal, I was just wondering"

 

Seems you and a couple of others took it the way it was intended - other's feel the need to turn a simple question a MAJOR faux pas

[johnmck]

Why post then?

[jenlyn]

Thank you - at least someone read it as a simple question

 

I guess I should have put the last sentence in LARGE BOLD PRINT where I said "it's not really a big deal, I was just wondering"

 

Seems you and a couple of others took it the way it was intended - other's feel the need to turn a simple question a MAJOR faux pas

 

They have nothing better to do, and probably only have any say when having the freedom of the internet.

[Bettie Boo]

It is I am afraid, posts such as this, making an issue about nothing, which makes me despair about life...

 

So they are making enquiries about a missing person and you want not a foot to touch your boat!

 

You live in a bubble.

 

May I ask whom the above is directed at?

[johnmck]

And you have to ask?

[Bettie Boo]

 

 

It's not really a big deal - it's just the first time we've had anyone actually board the boat without being invited to do so.

 

Part of my OP ^^^^^

 

 

Yes, we also hope no harm comes to the missing lady needless to say and that she is found soon.

 

 

 

I didn't mean the question to sound harsh, was just wondering what the proper protocol was on it.

 

Part of my 2nd post ^^^

 

So you walk up a path and knock on a door. Or,you step on a boat and knock on what is a door, what differs?

 

Why, when the officer has a legitimate enquiry is this a problem?

 

The term "get a life" springs to mind...

 

Ahhh, most helpful. Such a straightforward answer to my initial question, considering your background. And thanks for the suggestion, but I already have one. And funny enough, love it.

 

Could you point out exactly where in either of my posts I eluded that what happened was "problem or issue"?

 

It is I am afraid, posts such as this, making an issue about nothing, which makes me despair about life...

 

So they are making enquiries about a missing person and you want not a foot to touch your boat!

 

You live in a bubble.

 

Nope - with all due respect, I live on a boat. It does have large windows though

 

I'm afraid we are still getting to grips with some aspects of our new lifestyle and for some reason I just can't seem to remember that asking simple questions for clarification about such things on a boating discussion forum relating to our new boating lifestyle; could lead to causing some other boaters such despair in their own lives.

 

I would hate to think that I've caused you any undue despair so please feel free in the future to not bother reading or responding to any of my posts, hence I won't have to try and feel guilty for causing anguish or offence to your kind self. Please do take care of yourself and try not to get so stressed

[Guest]

And John being an ex copper too....

 

He might have been able to give a more comprehensive response.....

[NigelMoore]

What is the relevant law in this case though? Can anyone provide a link to it?

 

It is largely a matter of the common law, to which no links would be found because enshrined in case law such as Moore v Robinson, 1831, affirming that "the master of a ship might bring trespass " even "in the case of a mere boat plying on a canal."

 

The most specific Statutory legislation is within the Merchant Shipping Act 1995 -

 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1995/21/section/104

 

104 Unauthorised presence on board ship.

 

Where a United Kingdom ship or a ship registered in any other country is in a port in the United Kingdom and a person who is neither in Her Majesty’s service nor authorised by law to do so—

 

 

( a ) goes on board the ship without the consent of the master or of any other persons authorised to give it; or

( b ) remains on board the ship after being requested to leave by the master, a constable, an officer authorised by the Secretary of State or an officer of customs and excise,

 

he shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 5 on the standard scale.

 

It needs to be understood that for this and one other section only, the term “United Kingdom ship” carries a different meaning to everywhere else in the Act. For the purposes of “Safety & health on ships”, s.85 provides;

 

“(1) The Secretary of State may by regulations (in this Act referred to as “safety regulations”) make such provision as he considers appropriate for all or any of the following purposes—

 

(a ) for securing the safety of United Kingdom ships and persons on them, and for protecting the health of persons on United Kingdom ships;"

 

Amongst such purposes are those governing: “( g ) the access to, presence in and egress from a ship, and different parts of it, of persons of any description;”

 

For these purposes the definition applying is:

 

“(2) In subsection (1) above “United Kingdom ship” means a ship which—

( a ) is registered in the United Kingdom; or

( b ) is not registered under the law of any country but is wholly owned by persons each of whom is—

(i) a British citizen, a British Dependent Territories citizen or a British Overseas citizen"

 

I would argue that that the definition applies to provisions from 85 to 108, falling as they all do under Part IV SAFETY. That would embrace all boats of whatever sort owned by British citizens, but the Act provides that these regulations are also: “( b ) for securing the safety of other ships and persons on them while they are within United Kingdom waters”. Foreign vessels in transit are excepted.

 

It has been argued by others that the expanded definition applies only to regulations NOT listed in the Act but which are to be promulgated separately by the Secretary of State. If that is so, then you would need to fit the primary definition of UK ship, which is “if the ship is registered in the United Kingdom under Part II.”

 

Throughout the Act, “ 'port' includes place", which would cover any inland waterway [though as we know, CaRT have difficulties with defining it).

 

“ ‘Ship’ includes every description of vessel used in navigation.” [bona fide or not!]

 

For all classes of vessel whether Part II registered or not, the situation would be covered under common law, but the above is the statutory position so far as I am aware of it. Obviously, if you were anticipating any need to push the issue hard, then you would be well advised to register your boat and cover all bases.

 

The power for CaRT personnel to over-ride the common law right of a ship's Master is governed by the BW Act 1983, Part II, s.7(2)( b ) :-

 

“An officer SHALL NOT enter upon any vessel in accordance with this subsection UNLESS –

 

(i) not less than 24 hours’ notice of such entry had been given to the master of the vessel; or

 

(ii) the officer has reason to believe that the vessel may be unsafe and that an immediate inspection is required.” [my capitalisation and bold for emphasis]

 

I did try looking for the post where had I listed all the statutory rights of entry onto ships, but I failed to find it, and I don't think there is sufficient interest to warrant my taking time out from what I am currently engaged on in order to work up a list all over again.

 

I haven't even had time to sip a whisky this evening.

[Bettie Boo]

 

It is largely a matter of the common law, to which no links would be found because enshrined in case law such as Moore v Robinson, 1831, affirming that "the master of a ship might bring trespass " even "in the case of a mere boat plying on a canal."

 

The most specific Statutory legislation is within the Merchant Shipping Act 1995 -

 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1995/21/section/104

 

104 Unauthorised presence on board ship.

 

Where a United Kingdom ship or a ship registered in any other country is in a port in the United Kingdom and a person who is neither in Her Majesty’s service nor authorised by law to do so—

 

 

( a ) goes on board the ship without the consent of the master or of any other persons authorised to give it; or

( b ) remains on board the ship after being requested to leave by the master, a constable, an officer authorised by the Secretary of State or an officer of customs and excise,

 

he shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 5 on the standard scale.

 

It needs to be understood that for this and one other section only, the term “United Kingdom ship” carries a different meaning to everywhere else in the Act. For the purposes of “Safety & health on ships”, s.85 provides;

 

“(1) The Secretary of State may by regulations (in this Act referred to as “safety regulations”) make such provision as he considers appropriate for all or any of the following purposes—

 

(a ) for securing the safety of United Kingdom ships and persons on them, and for protecting the health of persons on United Kingdom ships;"

 

Amongst such purposes are those governing: “( g ) the access to, presence in and egress from a ship, and different parts of it, of persons of any description;”

 

For these purposes the definition applying is:

 

“(2) In subsection (1) above “United Kingdom ship” means a ship which—

( a ) is registered in the United Kingdom; or

( b ) is not registered under the law of any country but is wholly owned by persons each of whom is—

(i) a British citizen, a British Dependent Territories citizen or a British Overseas citizen"

 

I would argue that that the definition applies to provisions from 85 to 108, falling as they all do under Part IV SAFETY. That would embrace all boats of whatever sort owned by British citizens, but the Act provides that these regulations are also: “( b ) for securing the safety of other ships and persons on them while they are within United Kingdom waters”. Foreign vessels in transit are excepted.

 

It has been argued by others that the expanded definition applies only to regulations NOT listed in the Act but which are to be promulgated separately by the Secretary of State. If that is so, then you would need to fit the primary definition of UK ship, which is “if the ship is registered in the United Kingdom under Part II.”

 

Throughout the Act, “ 'port' includes place", which would cover any inland waterway [though as we know, CaRT have difficulties with defining it).

 

“ ‘Ship’ includes every description of vessel used in navigation.” [bona fide or not!]

 

For all classes of vessel whether Part II registered or not, the situation would be covered under common law, but the above is the statutory position so far as I am aware of it. Obviously, if you were anticipating any need to push the issue hard, then you would be well advised to register your boat and cover all bases.

 

The power for CaRT personnel to over-ride the common law right of a ship's Master is governed by the BW Act 1983, Part II, s.7(2)( b ) :-

 

“An officer SHALL NOT enter upon any vessel in accordance with this subsection UNLESS –

 

(i) not less than 24 hours’ notice of such entry had been given to the master of the vessel; or

 

(ii) the officer has reason to believe that the vessel may be unsafe and that an immediate inspection is required.” [my capitalisation and bold for emphasis]

 

I did try looking for the post where had I listed all the statutory rights of entry onto ships, but I failed to find it, and I don't think there is sufficient interest to warrant my taking time out from what I am currently engaged on in order to work up a list all over again.

 

I haven't even had time to sip a whisky this evening.

 

Nigel - thank you for taking the time to write/type all of the above. It is appreciated, and I do genuinely feel quite guilty about the time you've spent on it.

 

Please don't spend any more time on it on my account.

 

I really was just wondering what the etiquette was so if in the future it happened again we could explain to the officer they might get a better reception by knocking on the side or roof of boats to gain the attention of the occupants. And the fact that it has the potential be quite hazardous jumping onto a boats well deck at dusk.

 

Again, thank you

 

 

ETA - had to wait till this morning to give you the well deserved greenie as I was out of them yesterday

Edited April 10, 2015 by Bettie Boo

[Ange]

Bettie I totally understand your question and why you asked it. It's a strange world when you move aboard a boat, with a lot of conventions that only boatie folk understand. We had a coup!e of friends visit us, and we could hear them discuss as they approached the boat what to do. "Is there a doorbell?" "How do we let them know we're here?" was what we heard loud and clear before we appeared before them.

 

We'd never dream of stepping aboard a boat uninvited (unlike our dog!) but like you say it's no big deal in the right circumstances

[Daiboy]

Hi all, I would just like to add my 5 pennyworth to this discussion.

Police have the right to enter ANY property as long as they have GROUNDS to believe that there is evidence or actual physical proof that a crime has been committed.

They can do this without a warrant as the badge they have in their possession is a warrant.

They would also should be able to realise that storming down a door of a flat or house is different to knocking on a boat's side to allow the occupants to answer and respond. A missing person is somewhat different to a (what shall we call it) terrorist or armed robber.

I agree with the OP, the police should have handled this in a "friendly" manner rather than wobbling the boat. If I had that wobbling in the night when it was dark, I would have taken preventive measures to secure my safety, and probably been nicked!!!!

[Paul G2]

This is a bit different from your original assertion. No they cannot just come into either a house or boat just because they want to but if they have a genuine reason to do so that fits Section 17 then you are not going to stop them coming in, take it from someone who has entered a lot of houses over the years in which the occupant told me I wasn't coming in without a warrant, always sadly disabused of this fallacy.

 

Years ago a good school chum of mine who was an LA County Deputy Sheriff chased a fleeing suspect into one of my rental houses. He was telling me the story over a beer a few days later and he laughingly made the comment, "Yeah, I took the time to open the door because I knew it was your house. Usually we just kick them in. It's a lot more fun and makes a better impression on those inside."

 

The realities of police work....

 

I read an interesting statistic a few days ago. The police in South Carolina (pop. 8.3 million) have shot and killed more people in the last two years than the entire UK police forces have since 1900. (I don't know how that statistic jibes with what was going on in Northern Ireland for so long, but that's what the article said.) This country is becoming so fascist, so fast. I can't wait for the day I can leave here. The point is, any time you want to complain about your police, just be glad you don't have to put up cops who are racist veterans with PTSD who'll blow you away at the drop of a hat just because they can. If you've got the stomach for it, the first minute of this will make you want to cry.

 

Sorry if I wandered too far off topic.

[DeanS]

We once had a youngish chap...board the cratch area...sit in our garden furniture, while holding our multi coloured solar table light above his head so his friend could take a snap of him.....only thing was...we were in bed at the time...and I felt the boat move, so I popped my head out, and said..."hi..would you mind getting off the boat? (in a nice voice)....He was extremely apologetic and embarrassed......

 

I hope the person has been/will be found. (haven't read whole thread)